Canned mushrooms, agaritine and hydrazine

[bookshelf]

I am learning that it's best to cook mushrooms (preferably boil) for a long time (1-3 hours) in order to reduce or eliminate agaritine and hydrazine. What I'm having difficulty ascertaining is:

1) Are canned mushrooms (in glass, low/no sodium b/c I know the sodium they use isn't the good kind) safe alternative to preparing them oneself? Will they still have all of the "Peaty" benefits?
2) How long DO you boil them for if making them yourself? 1-3 hours is a big swing.


I did find this article helpful but again, you'll see the 1-3 hour window. how I prep mushrooms and why it’s worth the bother | The Nutrition Coach

 

[Kykeon]

I am learning that it's best to cook mushrooms (preferably boil) for a long time (1-3 hours) in order to reduce or eliminate agaritine and hydrazine. What I'm having difficulty ascertaining is:

1) Are canned mushrooms (in glass, low/no sodium b/c I know the sodium they use isn't the good kind) safe alternative to preparing them oneself? Will they still have all of the "Peaty" benefits?
2) How long DO you boil them for if making them yourself? 1-3 hours is a big swing.


I did find this article helpful but again, you'll see the 1-3 hour window. how I prep mushrooms and why it’s worth the bother | The Nutrition Coach

Hi. i have done now some reading on these topics.

"canned" mushrooms are only boiled for a short time, 5-6 minutes according to food chemistry handbooks. I dont think companies want to boil them longer as it would only mean extra cost.
Ray recommends cooking them for 45 minutes at least to denature the argaritine, and he says the broth should be consumed, as it contains good compounds and nutrition.

Sci-Hub | Gehaltsbestimmung von Agaritin im Zuchtchampignon (Agaricus bisporus) mittels Hochleistungsflüssigchromatographie (HPLC) | 10.1007/bf01041897

In the study above they measured the argaritine in canned mushrooms and it has already lead to quite the reduction in argaritine, compared to raw mushrooms.
"The agaritine content in fresh mushrooms was found to be in the range of 94- 629 mg/kg fresh weight. Canned mushrooms contained 1-55 mg/kg drained weight with 3-103 mg/1 in the liquid. The highest agaritine values were found in dried commercial mushrooms amounting to 2,110- 6,905 mg/kg"

So boiling them for only 5 minutesseems to help a lot in reducing the argaritin, i will only cook them now for an hour and not 2-3 hours like some people recommend, because it is simply too annoying and i have already destroyed a very good pot when i forget them.

Most of the argaritine is found in the caps of the mushrooms, younger mushrooms have more than older ones, something to consider when selecting white buttoms (or when you grow them yourself)

 

[bookshelf]

Hi. i have done now some reading on these topics.

"canned" mushrooms are only boiled for a short time, 5-6 minutes according to food chemistry handbooks. I dont think companies want to boil them longer as it would only mean extra cost.
Ray recommends cooking them for 45 minutes at least to denature the argaritine, and he says the broth should be consumed, as it contains good compounds and nutrition.

Sci-Hub | Gehaltsbestimmung von Agaritin im Zuchtchampignon (Agaricus bisporus) mittels Hochleistungsflüssigchromatographie (HPLC) | 10.1007/bf01041897

In the study above they measured the argaritine in canned mushrooms and it has already lead to quite the reduction in argaritine, compared to raw mushrooms.
"The agaritine content in fresh mushrooms was found to be in the range of 94- 629 mg/kg fresh weight. Canned mushrooms contained 1-55 mg/kg drained weight with 3-103 mg/1 in the liquid. The highest agaritine values were found in dried commercial mushrooms amounting to 2,110- 6,905 mg/kg"

So boiling them for only 5 minutesseems to help a lot in reducing the argaritin, i will only cook them now for an hour and not 2-3 hours like some people recommend, because it is simply too annoying and i have already destroyed a very good pot when i forget them.

Most of the argaritine is found in the caps of the mushrooms, younger mushrooms have more than older ones, something to consider when selecting white buttoms (or when you grow them yourself)

This is fantastically helpful, thank you Kykeon! I will also reduce the boiling as 2-3 hours has not only caused me to have to salvage a pot when I, too, forgot about mushrooms on the burner , I also find that it makes them too rubbery .

I find it interesting that Ray says the broth should be consumed (which I had been doing so yay for that validation) simply because I see where you cited the study in your remarks that the liquid from canned mushrooms still contains a certain amount.

All in all, the canned mushrooms, according to the study, when drained seem to have a relatively low amount. I have to wonder if it reduces more when further cooked in a recipe.

I make a traditional mushroom soup every Christmas that calls for dried mushrooms. I do, however, soak them in hot water multiple times before using them and the "tea" that is left (the liquid), I then strain and use in the broth. Once combined with the other ingredients, the soup then simmers for a number of hours before consuming so I hope that it's ok to eat after all of that effort.

I also wonder just how much agaritine and hydrazine our bodies can handle/process before it becomes an issue - especially cumulatively. I'd have to think our bodies are designed to excrete it along with other toxins up to a point. With that, I wonder what is a "safe" amount of mushrooms in any form to consume on the weekly.

Thanks again for your insight. It's much appreciated!

 

[Kykeon]

doubleposted oopsie

 

[Kykeon]

well the argaritine seems to only occur in mushrooms from the genus AGARICUS, not really in oyster mushrooms or other kinds, at least from what i could gather so far.
many researchers also say that the argaritine extracts were not responsible for the mutagenic effects in the studies that alarmed people, but it maybe is just a lie from BIG MUSHROOM, i dont know.


what i also find interesting, in the study they said that boiling the canned mushrooms (who were blanchiert - german for boiling for 5 minutes/ a short time) did not reduce the argaritine content further.
"These figures show that agaritin decomposed during the cooking process, as well as during the during storage in the mushroom juice. In contrast, in the blanched (quick boil 5 minutes) mushrooms (Table 5), no decrease in total agaritin was observed as a result of cooking in water. On the other hand, the duration of blanching seems to have an effect on the amount of agaritin released from the mushroom material."

"In recent years, several publications have appeared, namely from the working group of Toth, indicating that hydrazine derivates as found in Agaricus bisporus, may have a genotoxic effect [4-11]. Agaritin itself has been shown to be noncarcinogenic in long-term experiments with Mice [8]. Both the chemical and biological data on the decomposition reactions and secondary products of agaritin in edible mushrooms are still incomplete and require further clarification."

they also froze the mushrooms, and i think it impacts the argaritine content aswell. "Thus freezing and thawing reduced the agaritine content by 77.3% in our experiment, while only freezing reduced the agaritine content by 41.1%" from another paper.

So my verdict is not to use canned mushrooms, also due to BPA in most cans. I need to read the paper more, maybe they made some errors i also dont understand if they cut up the mushrooms before. I think cutting them up a lot would help in speeding up the process. My tactic is now to cut them up alot, saute them in high heat so most water comes out and then boil them for 45 minutes, letting most of the water evaporate and then store then with some additional water in the fridge.

i would love to read the newsletter where ray talked about mushrooms, i cant find it.

 

[bookshelf]

well the argaritine seems to only occur in mushrooms from the genus AGARICUS, not really in oyster mushrooms or other kinds, at least from what i could gather so far.
many researchers also say that the argaritine extracts were not responsible for the mutagenic effects in the studies that alarmed people, but it maybe is just a lie from BIG MUSHROOM, i dont know.


what i also find interesting, in the study they said that boiling the canned mushrooms (who were blanchiert - german for boiling for 5 minutes/ a short time) did not reduce the argaritine content further.
"These figures show that agaritin decomposed during the cooking process, as well as during the during storage in the mushroom juice. In contrast, in the blanched (quick boil 5 minutes) mushrooms (Table 5), no decrease in total agaritin was observed as a result of cooking in water. On the other hand, the duration of blanching seems to have an effect on the amount of agaritin released from the mushroom material."

"In recent years, several publications have appeared, namely from the working group of Toth, indicating that hydrazine derivates as found in Agaricus bisporus, may have a genotoxic effect [4-11]. Agaritin itself has been shown to be noncarcinogenic in long-term experiments with Mice [8]. Both the chemical and biological data on the decomposition reactions and secondary products of agaritin in edible mushrooms are still incomplete and require further clarification."

they also froze the mushrooms, and i think it impacts the argaritine content aswell. "Thus freezing and thawing reduced the agaritine content by 77.3% in our experiment, while only freezing reduced the agaritine content by 41.1%" from another paper.

So my verdict is not to use canned mushrooms, also due to BPA in most cans. I need to read the paper more, maybe they made some errors i also dont understand if they cut up the mushrooms before. I think cutting them up a lot would help in speeding up the process. My tactic is now to cut them up alot, saute them in high heat so most water comes out and then boil them for 45 minutes, letting most of the water evaporate and then store then with some additional water in the fridge.

i would love to read the newsletter where ray talked about mushrooms, i cant find it.

Great insights!

Unfortunately, I am not able to put my finger on the newsletter, either. I have only been receiving his newsletters recently so my RP library is rather small.

w/r/t "Agaritin itself has been shown to be noncarcinogenic in long-term experiments with Mice [8]" ...Another thing I wonder is why aren't people dropping like flies, those who eat a lot of mushrooms? Why are they not obviously ill? One might surmise that any regular exposure to improperly prepared mushrooms would cause any number of significant health problems. While I've no doubt it is a contributing factor, I have to wonder just how much of an impact do they have on one's health trajectory.

I've see where cutting the mushrooms up first (or pulsing them in a blender/cuisinart) is preferred. Perhaps this exposes more surface area and allows the agaritine and hydrazine to dissipate easier. I wonder if it would also make them less rubbery to the tooth. I have boiled whole and sliced. I have noticed no difference to the palate and the eye. Scientifically, I am ill equipped to make a call as I have no way of analyzing them.

I think *if* I were to use canned mushrooms, I'd purchase the ones in the glass jars and rinse them first then cook them well before using.