Eyesight restored from 20/400 to 20/25 in woman with copper deficiency

[cs3000]

Nutritional Optic Neuropathy Caused by Copper Deficiency After Bariatric Surgery - PubMed

A 47-year-old woman developed severe bilateral visual loss 4 years after a Roux-en-Y gastric bypass and 24 years after vertical banded gastroplasty. Her serum copper level was 35 μg/dL (normal, 80-155 μg/dL). She was prescribed elemental copper tablets. Because her methylmalonic acid was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A 47-year-old woman developed severe bilateral visual loss 4 years after a Roux-en-Y gastric bypass and 24 years after vertical banded gastroplasty. Her serum copper level was 35 μg/dL (normal, 80-155 μg/dL). She was prescribed elemental copper tablets. Because her methylmalonic acid was slightly elevated, she received vitamin B12 injections as well.

Five weeks later, she reported that her vision had improved and, at 10 months, her vision had recovered from 20/400 bilaterally to 20/25 in each eye. This case highlights the importance of checking copper levels in addition to the "more routine" vitamin levels, such as B1, B6, B12, E, and serum folate in patients with suspected nutritional optic neuropathy after bariatric surgery, particularly if it involved a bypass procedure.

Copper deficiency in rats leads to pathologic features consistent with demyelination in the optic nerves. The pathologic finding of subacute myelooptic neuropathy has been described as symmetric demyelination of lateral and posterior columns in the spinal cord, optic nerve, and peripheral nerves

Copper deficiency is very common studies have it @ 30% - 60% of populations not hitting 0.9mg. and for those that do 0.9mg can be too low, likely at ~50% for well nourished levels. at ~1mg heart issues start to develop, low copper is probably a leading reason behind PVCs (premature ventricular contractions / ectopic beats). maybe heart disease generally. when rats get copper replenished their enlarged hearts / cardiac hypertrophy goes back to normal by 20 days. anemia/iron deficiency. & vision, alzheimers , slow repair/chronic wounds , poor immunity, lower limb weakness / numbness / tingling / function, white hair, menopause bone loss, myelin problems etc might be improved by bringing copper up to balance

 

[ecstatichamster]

Nutritional Optic Neuropathy Caused by Copper Deficiency After Bariatric Surgery - PubMed

A 47-year-old woman developed severe bilateral visual loss 4 years after a Roux-en-Y gastric bypass and 24 years after vertical banded gastroplasty. Her serum copper level was 35 μg/dL (normal, 80-155 μg/dL). She was prescribed elemental copper tablets. Because her methylmalonic acid was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Copper deficiency is very common studies have it @ 30% - 60% of populations not hitting 0.9mg. and for those that do 0.9mg can be too low, likely by ~50% for well nourished levels. at ~1mg heart issues start to develop, low copper is probably a leading reason behind PVCs (premature ventricular contractions / ectopic beats). maybe heart disease generally. when rats get copper replenished their enlarged hearts / cardiac hypertrophy goes back to normal by 20 days, anemia, vision alzheimers chronic wounds/slow repair poor immunity lower limb weakness / numbness / tingling / function white hair myelin problems etc might be improved by bringing copper up to balance

Thank you for posting all this.

 

[cs3000]

@ecstatichamster np

@Peater yeah they are (2 types of liver). the vit a in liver can help absorb copper but levels too high can tip it the other way, beef or sheep/lamb liver is good but not chicken (low copper) or pork liver (might not absorb as well). rn im eating 5g beef liver a day which gives an extra ~0.5mg copper & ups my vit a to 2000iu total. varys by source 0.3 - 0.7 on cronometer. im not getting vit d yet so 2000iu will do. and taking a little of a copper supplement. spread out to avoid anxiety spike (idk why that happens from too much, norepinephrine spike from all absorbing at once?). around 2mg total copper a day. dark chocolate / cocoa works if respond well to the stimulants

 

[Peater]

Are liver and dark chocolate good copper sources?

It might sound like a daft obvious question but half the time when I think I know something and so does everyone else, it then turns out to be incorrect.

 

[Ras]

Almost any dose of copper gluconate makes me nauseated.

 

[Ben.]

Almost any dose of copper gluconate makes me nauseated.

Do you take it on an empty stomache away from anything? Because thats "normal" then.

 

[rivercurrents]

My wife (46 - pre menopausal) is very worried about copper. She has some of the symptoms listed under Cu deficiency, including mildly deteriorating eyesight as above. I just did this looking at our main diet components.

Raw milk, 1.5L 750 (based on 0.5mg per L mean)
eggs x 2 80
orange juice 250ml 40
beef 200g 200
chicken soup 250ml 20
Espresso doubles x 2 40
Weekly beef or lamb liver 100g making 1400 per day averaged over the week.

This adds up to a whopping 2530 per day. Even if she only managed to stomach 50g of lamb/beef liver a week she'd still be on 1800 micrograms per day which is twice the RDA for copper. So please correct me if anyone thinks I am incorrect advising her NOT to start taking a copper supplement. Blood testing is stressful for her so she's not keen to do that.

However, low iodine causes many of the same or similar symptoms as low copper (fatigue, weakness, poor concentration/brain function etc). We don't use iodised salt and NZ soils are low in iodine, seafood is expensive so we don't eat much. Last week I started supplementing about 1/4 of a drop of 5% lugol's per day (so far as I can gather that's nearly 1 mg of iodine per day which is 4x the RDA) and IMMEDIATELY I noticed an increase in night time/morning erections and also higher libido.

I have a hunch iodine is her issue (or something else). I got her to take a drop of 4 to 1 diluted lugol's last night. Wait and see.

 

[Logan-]

rn im eating 5g beef liver a day which gives an extra ~0.5mg copper & ups my vit a to 2000iu total

I don’t understand how some of the members eat such small amounts. What does 5 grams of liver look like, two cubes?

When I find fresh beef liver, I buy 250-500 grams of it, cook and eat it in the same day.

Maybe I should do what you. Like, cook a big amount, then put a few cooked liver cubes each in freezer (in freezer bags) and take one out every day to eat daily.

 

[Ras]

Do you take it on an empty stomache away from anything? Because thats "normal" then.

I felt nauseated with or without food.

 

[Don]

I felt nauseated with or without food.

Take milk and vit C with copper. Ginger helps as well

 

[Logan-]

I felt nauseated with or without food.

Why don’t you eat ruminant liver instead? It has plenty of copper. Can’t you tolerate offal?

How Often Do You Eat Liver?

How often do you eat liver?

raypeatforum.com

 

[cs3000]

Maybe I should do what you. Like, cook a big amount, then put a few cooked liver cubes each in freezer (in freezer bags) and take one out every day to eat daily.

too much vit a at once doesnt feel great to me probably because of the aromatase inhibition & i dont get vit D, ppl low in copper often have low estrogen also idk where or if copper absorption maxes out from getting it all at once + too much copper at once can cause overstimulated mind

My wife (46 - pre menopausal) is very worried about copper. She has some of the symptoms listed under Cu deficiency, including mildly deteriorating eyesight as above. I just did this looking at our main diet components.
This adds up to a whopping 2530 per day. Even if she only managed to stomach 50g of lamb/beef liver a week she'd still be on 1800 micrograms per day which is twice the RDA for copper. So please correct me if anyone thinks I am incorrect advising her NOT to start taking a copper supplement. Blood testing is stressful for her so she's not keen to do that.
However, low iodine causes many of the same or similar symptoms as low copper (fatigue, weakness, poor concentration/brain function etc). We don't use iodised salt and NZ soils are low in iodine, seafood is expensive so we don't eat much. Last week I started supplementing about 1/4 of a drop of 5% lugol's per day (so far as I can gather that's nearly 1 mg of iodine per day which is 4x the RDA) and IMMEDIATELY I noticed an increase in night time/morning erections and also higher libido.
I have a hunch iodine is her issue (or something else). I got her to take a drop of 4 to 1 diluted lugol's last night. Wait and see.

idk without a test but i wouldnt in that case should be enough. unless taken a high dose zinc supplement recently for a while or have duodenum problems where copper gets absorbed or confirmed absorption issues from too high vit A levels etc but then the problem isnt with the intake amount its with the absorption. if shes high estrogen that increases copper absorption

also theres tap water copper to take into account if drink this & isnt being filtered, varies a lot house to house can be practically 0 or up to milligrams (would probably notice nausea often if it was high milligram amounts). random amounts can fluctuate based on running time too so idk how you'd average that across a population. copper absorption should go down as intake goes up

we need iodide but generally small amount. tipping over can cause issues , especially in the womb which looks more sensitive (some iodide intake needed for brain development but tsh levels increase in cord blood from just an extra +150mcg daily on top of diet in pregnant women)
i dont like lugols iodine its a mix of iodine and iodide. iodine can be damaging , iodide is food form (not great as kelp either)

progesterone balance is 1 main key in menopause to prevent effects of estrogen dominance ray peat has a lot on that

I felt nauseated with or without food.

notice this mildly from supps , that might be the noradrenaline from tipping over to too much (or too much compared to low dopamine transmission at first i wonder if thats what creates sensitivity there, low dopamine transmission seen in lacking iron before it gets replenished and copper = dopamine -> noradrenaline)
does 0.5mg do this?

 

[Logan-]

COPPER: SUPPLEMENTATION VS DIET

Which one do you mainly prefer to increase your copper level? Why? If diet, what do you eat, and how much? If supplementation, what do you take, how much?

raypeatforum.com

 

[Ras]

Why don’t you eat ruminant liver instead? It has plenty of copper. Can’t you tolerate offal?

How Often Do You Eat Liver?

How often do you eat liver?

raypeatforum.com

Because I don't want everything that's in liver in those quantities. Also, there's no knowing how much copper I'd be getting.

 

[Happy Camper]

Having taken way too much zinc during COVID, I suspected my copper was low. I bought this on Amazon. Evidently farmers tell me this works for cattle too. If they need a mineral, it tastes good. If they don't need it, it's hard to get that taste out of your mouth.

When I eat grass-fed beef braunsweger (more liver than liverwurst), I never need to supplement as determined by taste.

I get my braunsweger from US Wellness Meats.

Beef Braunschweiger - 1 lb. | US Wellness Meats

Beef Braunschweiger is a 60/40 mix of grass-fed trim and grass-fed beef liver offered in a fully cooked 1 pound package ready to slice and serve. Braunschweiger is a great sausage to try if you want to incorporate organ meats to your diet.

grasslandbeef.com

Taste N' Score Copper Liquid Ionic Supplement; 100% Pure; 2 mg; 177 Servings Amazon.com

 

[cs3000]

i looked into it some more yesterday , copper supps work about 50% of the time , probably based on individual absorption of copper itself rather than it being a problem with supplements

This study gives some nice insight showing how Cu(ii) from supplements is bioavailable, gets converted to Cu(i) for use in cells. more about individual absorption because of surrounding factors (which studies have shown by symptom reduction in some not others)

It gets reduced by copper transporter CRT1 in presence of ascorbate and some amino acids
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8867124/
(histidine used to get bound Cu(ii) copper from albumin in bloodstream, then Vit C reduces to Cu(i) usable in the cell, methionine/aspartate used to stabilise as Cu(i)

So ensuring adequate vit c intake (100mg daily , dont want much more as might lower ceruloplasmin activity otherwise), and good protein intake (maybe best to take with protein source?) are 2 more factors for copper function especially from supps
(u also need CTR1 expressed, but should already be increased in copper deficiency anyway as a response to try import more, increases in gut and brain, vit d for ctr1 otherwise as shown in thinning cornea keratoconus study, where vit D improved eye health by increasing ctr1 / copper in the eye)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2718570/

Albumin, one of the most abundant proteins in blood serum, binds to Cu(II) and has been shown to transfer copper to the N-term of the copper transporter-1 in the presence of ascorbate (24, 52). We found that the N-terminal domain rich in His-Met not only binds to copper but also maintains the physiological redox state of the metal. Our model suggests that the histidine clusters in the trimeric hCTR1 bind to the Cu(II) and possibly increase its local concentration.

Based upon studies from other groups, we hypothesize that ascorbate (soluble) and other membrane-bound reductases, e.g., STEAP proteins convert Cu(II) to Cu(I) on the extracellular surface. Based upon our present study, we determined that the methionine clusters in combination with aspartates on the hCTR1 N-terminal domain facilitate reduction, bind, and stabilize the reduced copper state.

Eventually, the Cu(I) enters the pore via its interaction with M150 and M154 triads situated on the entrance of the copper transporting pore. Cu(I) uptake in the cell induces endocytosis of the transporter, which regulates levels of copper import. The first methionine cluster, 7MGM9, serves as the primary coordinator for Cu(I), deletion of which leads to reduced copper uptake and subsequently abrogates hCTR1 endocytosis.

Histidines, on the other hand, do not exhibit a direct interaction with Cu(I), and hence, its absence has no apparent effect on copper uptake or hCTR1 endocytosis. Interestingly, in limiting but physiological copper, the role of His motifs becomes more important to increase the local concentration of Cu(II) at the amino-terminal site of the protein for its subsequent reduction. We, for the first time, show the relevance of N-terminal aspartates in copper uptake and endocytosis of hCTR1. In our MD simulation model, we observed that aspartates in conjunction with histidines provide key ligation for Cu(II) binding

 

[cs3000]

we need iodide but generally small amount. tipping over can cause issues , especially in the womb which looks more sensitive (some iodide intake needed for brain development but tsh levels increase in cord blood from just an extra +150mcg daily on top of diet in pregnant women)
i dont like lugols iodine its a mix of iodine and iodide. iodine can be damaging , iodide is food form (not great as kelp either)

lowering high iodide (from 1mg+) reverses hypothyroidism ->
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3722332/

(Especially relevant for people out of the US with no iodized salt, if not drinking milk or eating a lot of eggs:

gotta ensure good iodide intake to get good t3 levels so your cells are functioning well, aka 70mcg - 300mcg, but not much more)
max tissue levels of t3 come from 70mcg, still good ~350mcg but less. matches other study where 225mcg gave max tissue t3 levels Deiodinase Activities in Thyroids and Tissues of Iodine-Deficient Female Rats

good t3 levels (as t4 here but probs not optimal way to do it) key for mood / in depression https://www.researchgate.net/public...efractory_Depression_with_High-Dose_Thyroxine depression not helped by medications when given high T4 500mcg daily , depression score eased >50% by 8 weeks 10 / 17 patients responded (others might have needed balanced levels of iodine to get t4->t3, or iron to get t3 into cell)

and good t3 levels needed for wound healing (ulcers)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23083069/