Geocentrism vs Heliocentrism

[Bozidar]

It is easy to imagine that we are staying put and everything is moving around us, as long as you don't look too closely.

You don't need to imagine it. Its your daily reality.
Anyways, I think we are talking past each other.
My point is that humanity is excessively concerned with mathematical, quantitative order, abstractions and measurements and is applying that kind of conduct in every aspect of life. Quality then by default because of that is pushed to the side.
It really took of with Copernican revolution and with Immanuel Kant destroying meaning completely.
Our World is breaking down under the weight of all of this.
By saying "Our World is breaking down" I don't mean buildings, cars, trees or anything physical is breaking down, but the meaning.
Meaning becomes absent with excess quantification and categorization. Excess of order. Mechanical dead matter is left.
Heliocentrism is a part of it.
Nobody is denying you that the Sun is heavier then Earth.

 

[DanDare]

You don't need to imagine it. Its your daily reality.

Wrong

 

[Bozidar]

Wrong

Haha, just go out and look at the Sun going around. But have sunglasses please. :)

 

[5LGreenback]

If indeed we are living on a geocentric plane of some kind (I'm far more open to this idea being true now than I would have been years ago) the only reason for such a deception would be spiritual warfare IMO. As usual with many of these deceptions they seem to involve freemasonic members being propped up as scientific heroes, that reason alone should be cause for one to investigate much deeper.

 

[mosaic01]

It really took of with Copernican revolution and with Immanuel Kant destroying meaning completely.

Yes, that's what the Age of Enlightenment did to humanity - it took away all meaning out of life and replaced it with concepts that are not rooted in observable reality, in fact these concepts are diametrically opposed to the observable and experiencable reality.

 

[DanDare]

Haha, just go out and look at the Sun going around. But have sunglasses please. :)

 

[orangebear]

You see, that is exactly what I am writing about.
You are speck in a vast Universe? That is a very disassociative view of one's self which breeds Nihilism(lack of meaning). Exactly what the World has been stripped away from. You are clearly carrying that virus which I am describing.


Before, when I had no knowledge about that subject, I would say the exact same thing as you did here. I was a materialist blinded by the lack of knowledge.
Solar system of course has everything to do with person's life and psychology.
How you order the solar system is how societal system is going to be ordered and also how you are going to order you personal life.
You understand it trickles down in every pore of people's lives. There is a natural hierarchy there.
If you work in a company and your boss makes a certain decision, you bet it is going to affect you.

In heliocentric system you are exactly that how you described it. A speck, insignificant. Roaming around somewhere on the perifery.
That is exactly how bosses in a company are handling employees. Like matter, not humans with needs. Numbers.
And I see that people are actually trying hard to care for others, but its so difficult and impossible cause you have to constantly push against heliocentricity which tells you that you are insignificant and just a number.

This guy has a good point:
View: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLV38dyh/


The thing you’re getting wrong about relativity is that it explicitly states that no frame of reference takes precedence over any other. To you, you are the center of the universe, to the earth it is the center, and to the sun it is the center, but there are infinitely more vantage points in the universe and each one is just as valid. It’s classical physics that tries to find an objective center that may or may not exist in the universe (from a physical standpoint; not necessarily a postmodern woo-woo standpoint, though you’re free to extrapolate from the physical into the spiritual if you like, but keep in mind that a lot of this knowledge is tangential).

If you wish to discuss ancient peoples, the Indo-European pagans believed that the universe was Yemo’s body (cognate with Ymir from Norse mythology) and we are basically like germs living on and made up of his body. And the germs living within us (and perhaps even living things inside the subatomic particles that we cannot detect) are living in and made up of us like we are of Yemo. Now, Christianity on the other hand, firmly establishes God as the center of everything and does not allow for vantage points anywhere near equal to his own. We are the side characters in this worldview.

Now, I’m not saying pagan mythology is gospel, but the point is that you can argue every which way you like about the personal and psychological implications of one worldview or another, but the truth is that 1) we have incomplete knowledge of how the universe works and therefore it is somewhat silly to extrapolate and believe too fervently in any implications we can get from that incomplete knowledge, and 2) the implications we can glean from said knowledge are rather vague and subjective to the point of being meaningless to anyone but you and how you choose to see them. That’s why I don’t agree that we must choose a physical model based on how it makes us feel over whether it more accurately describes a physical phenomenon.

 

[Bozidar]

This guy has a good point:
View: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLV38dyh/


The thing you’re getting wrong about relativity is that it explicitly states that no frame of reference takes precedence over any other. To you, you are the center of the universe, to the earth it is the center, and to the sun it is the center, but there are infinitely more vantage points in the universe and each one is just as valid. It’s classical physics that tries to find an objective center that may or may not exist in the universe (from a physical standpoint; not necessarily a postmodern woo-woo standpoint, though you’re free to extrapolate from the physical into the spiritual if you like, but keep in mind that a lot of this knowledge is tangential).

If you wish to discuss ancient peoples, the Indo-European pagans believed that the universe was Yemo’s body (cognate with Ymir from Norse mythology) and we are basically like germs living on and made up of his body. And the germs living within us (and perhaps even living things inside the subatomic particles that we cannot detect) are living in and made up of us like we are of Yemo. Now, Christianity on the other hand, firmly establishes God as the center of everything and does not allow for vantage points anywhere near equal to his own. We are the side characters in this worldview.

Now, I’m not saying pagan mythology is gospel, but the point is that you can argue every which way you like about the personal and psychological implications of one worldview or another, but the truth is that 1) we have incomplete knowledge of how the universe works and therefore it is somewhat silly to extrapolate and believe too fervently in any implications we can get from that incomplete knowledge, and 2) the implications we can glean from said knowledge are rather vague and subjective to the point of being meaningless to anyone but you and how you choose to see them. That’s why I don’t agree that we must choose a physical model based on how it makes us feel over whether it more accurately describes a physical phenomenon.

I understand the theory of relativity. You can take any reference point as the center, but since we are on the Earth then it should be Earth. If we would be on Mars then Mars...

Norse mythology took over stories from Christianity, just different names. I will have to explore this what you say and then I write more back.

What Accurate physical phenomena is also depends.on your reference point. It is totally irrelevant that the Sun is heavier then Earth for your daily life on Earth. It is useful for something...
Also does it matter that an atom is 90 percent empty space when you open your eyes in the morning...

 

[orangebear]

I understand the theory of relativity. You can take any reference point as the center, but since we are on the Earth then it should be Earth. If we would be on Mars then Mars...

Norse mythology took over stories from Christianity, just different names. I will have to explore this what you say and then I write more back.

What Accurate physical phenomena is also depends.on your reference point. It is totally irrelevant that the Sun is heavier then Earth for your daily life on Earth. It is useful for something...
Also does it matter that an atom is 90 percent empty space when you open your eyes in the morning...

I mentioned Norse mythology as a reference point; Indo-European paganism goes back much further before Christian influence on Europe. I was simply connecting it to the earliest Indo-European myths we have reconstructed. The main point was the Indo-European conception of the cosmos and what it implies about our significance. It almost looks like something of a fractal universe where the question as to which level of the fractal is central becomes irrelevant; what is relevant is your conscious experience in your level.

To get really nerdy, the sun and the earth actually orbit their collective center of mass, which due to the mass of the sun ends up being within the sun itself, but one doesn’t technically orbit the other, at least not in an absolute sense even if in a practical one. But like you said, that is useful information for science but not necessarily for your everyday life, and that was my entire point as well. The physical model that helps us do science and launch satellites is useful for that, but incomplete and irrelevant to how we should feel about life.

I mean not entirely irrelevant—it can be fascinating and make us feel interesting things if it tickles your fancy—but it shouldn’t make us feel insignificant in the sense of worthless or make us depressed because there is no discernible objective center to the universe given our current understanding of physics. Must we change our perception of our self-worth every time scientists find out a new way that subatomic particles interact? Not until they discover Whoville on one of them, IMHO.

 

[Bozidar]

I mentioned Norse mythology as a reference point; Indo-European paganism goes back much further before Christian influence on Europe

Hm.
I am not sure what you are trying to say about religion here.
People usually try to discredit Christianity by saying that Christians just took over stuff from paganism.
There are underlying patterns through which all humans perceive the world and that manifests as stories which have those same patterns, but different names in different cultures.
That does not discredit Christianity, it reinforces it.
If I missed your point, I am sorry.

It almost looks like something of a fractal universe where the question as to which level of the fractal is central becomes irrelevant; what is relevant is your conscious experience in your level.

I don't know about that specific theory. I would need to look into it, but it reminds me of this New Age religion nonsense.
You have to have a house, you have to have a center. That is simply how humans function. Its a requirement for a happy human.
What is true on your personal level that you need a house, a center, familiarity is true on a whole humanity level. Humanity needs a center. You cannot be spinning somewhere on the perifery in cosmos and expect you are going to be healthy and happy.

 

[orangebear]

Hm.
I am not sure what you are trying to say about religion here.
People usually try to discredit Christianity by saying that Christians just took over stuff from paganism.
There are underlying patterns through which all humans perceive the world and that manifests as stories which have those same patterns, but different names in different cultures.
That does not discredit Christianity, it reinforces it.
If I missed your point, I am sorry.

Merely that the original Indo-European creation myth didn't have Christian influence even if perhaps later Norse myth did (which is debated among scholars). Speaking of the creation myth, I watched a video debunking the Manu and Yemo reconstruction today. It's likely that the surviving stories in Norse and Hindu mythology are much closer to the original than the reconstructed version by Bruce Lincoln. Anyway, the point is that the theological implications of Indo-European creation stories and the Bible's creation story are rather different.

I don't know about that specific theory. I would need to look into it, but it reminds me of this New Age religion nonsense.
You have to have a house, you have to have a center. That is simply how humans function. Its a requirement for a happy human.
What is true on your personal level that you need a house, a center, familiarity is true on a whole humanity level. Humanity needs a center. You cannot be spinning somewhere on the perifery in cosmos and expect you are going to be healthy and happy.

It's an ancient idea and New Age steals and bastardizes all kinds of ideas, old and new. Basically, in Indo-European myth, the universe is made up of a giant primordial being, and we little beings living in it are universes for the tiny beings inside us. While they didn't have germ theory back then and so probably couldn't imagine bacteria, they probably saw fleas and ticks and such on animals or themselves, and it takes very little effort to imagine a repeating pattern of things going both ways without a way to know where it ends in either direction. The mere idea that we are living in or on a giant primordial being is evidence that they entertained such ideas. Granted, their understanding of the universe was much smaller than ours today, as is evidenced in details such as rocks being made from Ymir's bones and the sky from his skull in Norse mythology specifically. Another thing to keep in mind is that these people also used hallucinogenic mushrooms and other substances in their rituals, so they'd actually seen fractals and wondered what their experiences might have meant.

All this is to say that with such a philosophy, trying to figure out where the center of the universe is something of a moot question, but from the last few sentences, I think you're getting at motion more than simply finding a center or scaling down the universe to a more comfortable size. Most ancient cultures did probably believe that the motion they saw in the celestial bodies was the motion of said bodies while the earth was still. In Norse mythology, Ymir is killed to create the world, but in some versions the primordial being is still alive, and so presumably does move, even if rather slowly. In either case, the movement of the earth rotating and orbiting a sun while it in turn orbits a galactic center would be a foreign concept to them. But are we to believe that we indeed live on/in an immobile corpse or an inanimate plane instead of what we observe in the universe today in order to feel better? Is it not enough to know that from our vantage point, we have solid ground beneath our feet to build a home in which to be healthy and happy? Do we have to convince ourselves of myth or modify science to fit it and calculate things in more difficult ways in order not to compromise our health and happiness?