Gyno from Thyroid (T3 and T4)?? Tocovit Implicated?? Any quick solutions to prevent additional hardening??

[EustaceBagge]

Hey man. Great point! I had actually theorized that this could be happening myself!

However, I had come to understand that T3 itself actually supports the conversion of more T4 -> T3 rather than reverse T3, which was partly why I went with the 2:1 ratio in the first place, rather than the higher 4:1 ratio of NDT / cynoplus by itself (also because I did not want to jump straight on 40mcg of T4, but felt that 5mcg of T3 was so little that it was probably pointless).

But still, you could be correct. The only thing with T3 only is that it's half-life is so short... like a couple of hours or so. Difficult to use as a standalone therapy, especially when I feel this bad.

I don't feel that the half life of t3 is short, I take it on an empty stomach in the morning and have no issues getting through the day really. Some places state that the half life of cynoplus is 24+ hours.

Triiodothyronine - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

"In the presence of normal thyroid function, the plasma half-life of T3 is about 1–2 days, this being prolonged in hypothyroidism and shortened in hyperthyroidism."

But maybe your individual experience varies, just try t3 only and see whether you feel down later that day.

 

[BigShoes]

I don't feel that the half life of t3 is short, I take it on an empty stomach in the morning and have no issues getting through the day really. Some places state that the half life of cynoplus is 24+ hours.

Triiodothyronine - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

"In the presence of normal thyroid function, the plasma half-life of T3 is about 1–2 days, this being prolonged in hypothyroidism and shortened in hyperthyroidism."

But maybe your individual experience varies, just try t3 only and see whether you feel down later that day.

Thanks man. This is great. I'll come off for a while and try to find some non-extreme way of prolactin suppression. Then if (*if*) things die down, I might re-try with T3 only.

Still, bit of a mystery as to what is going on.

 

[brightside]

Thanks man. I'm a bit unsure about the legitimacy of these suppliers - you never know what you're getting really. I'll have a look around.

So this is a prolactin issue? I thought T3 reduced prolactin.

Breast tissue development requires a combination of stimulation, with estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone being the most notable.

The increased thyroid probably just increased not only androgens, but also estrogens, which was just enough to kick start growth. It's obviously context specific, but your context includes high prolactin, so I would say it's not surprising. There's also a person's inclination towards aromatization or gyno development, and its highly variable between people. Everyone has different genetics, sensitivity to hormones, etc.

As far as suppliers, yeah, they aren't very trustworthy. But, their benefit is that they supply drugs instead of supplements. Their consumer base quickly figures out if their drug works or not, as opposed to the supplement world. If you read around steroid forums, you can quickly find out which ones you can rely on and which ones are a scam.

There are topical SERM's which could be used locally, or you could just go with an AI like Exemestane. I would definitely try some P5P, and perhaps an AI. Additionally, you could try applying some non-aromatizable androgens such as haidut's androsterone or 11K-DHT.

 

[area51puy]

Thyroid Supplement Increases Estrogen

Could someone plz explain why supplementing thyroid would increase estrogen/cause estrogenic symptoms?

raypeatforum.com

I'm not sure what kind of thyroid supplemtnet you're refering to; if your talking about dessicated thyroid (70% T4), levothyroxine (pure T4), pure T3?

“There’s almost no context in which I would speak of “an appropriate dose of T4,” since thyroxin is so effective as an antithyroid substance. It’s appropriate if you are also taking T3, or if you want to shrink your thyroid. Thyroid will dependably correct your pregnenolone production, if you have enough cholesterol, vitamin A, and protein. The cholesterol will be consumed to make pregnenolone and progesterone and bile acids. If cholesterol is below 160, fruit sugar helps to raise it. The protein is needed to detoxify estrogen, unsaturated oils, etc, and to maintain the T3. Protein deficiency gives antithyroid signals, and T4 will be used to make reverse T3 to inhibit T3’s effects. About 3 mcg of T3 especially if it’s taken with milk or gelatine-rich salty soup is effective for stopping the nocturnal alarm reaction.” - Ray Peat, excerpt from this article on quotes on using thyroid from Functional Performance Systems:
Ray Peat, PhD on Thyroid, Temperature, Pulse, and TSH

 

[area51puy]

Other things in that thread was saying t4 could raise estrogen and some said that also earlier this thread, so try dropping the t4

 

[BigShoes]

Update for anyone interested:

Can confirm: the tocovit did damage the nipple skin. Not badly - it has healed now. But for whatever reason, my skin reacted to something in it. The discharge around the nipple literally was plasma like from a cut / scab (anyone remember grazing your knee in the playground?). It dried up a funky colour, and now the "scab" / scaliness has fallen off.

Disgusting to talk about, I know.

Nevertheless, hopefully this can be a warning to people (tbh, women probably already know this from cosmetics, its us men who need the lesson) - Always. Patch Test. Topical. Products! Don't lather your skin in anything (or put anything on sensitive areas - nipples, testicles, eyes area, vulvas (okay that one was for the women...), wherever else you can think of) before patch testing - you never know how you will react.

That said, I took a little time off the thyroid hormone supplementation (just 3 or 4 days, so no where near long enough for the T4 to reach its 2 week half life yet), and then began T3 supplementation again as @EustaceBagge and @area51puy mentioned. I haven't yet looked for the products that @brightside kindly mentioned but will possibly explore this.

However, right nipple is still ever so slightly itchy. Not major - no urge to scratch, and certainly not the painful tenderness that often comes along with gyno / breast development. I have been monitoring it daily and it doesn't look like there's any growth going on at all (but obviously, very difficult to know for sure, or to know if anything has been set into motion).

Also, I will look to try the zinc as @tommyg130 said. If any guys out there are having similar troubles with this (or other estrogenic symptoms) - check his threads out. The guy has gone through some scary stuff, and the turnaround is remarkable - a true inspiration.

Cheers

 

[EustaceBagge]

Update for anyone interested:

Can confirm: the tocovit did damage the nipple skin. Not badly - it has healed now. But for whatever reason, my skin reacted to something in it. The discharge around the nipple literally was plasma like from a cut / scab (anyone remember grazing your knee in the playground?). It dried up a funky colour, and now the "scab" / scaliness has fallen off.

Disgusting to talk about, I know.

Nevertheless, hopefully this can be a warning to people (tbh, women probably already know this from cosmetics, its us men who need the lesson) - Always. Patch Test. Topical. Products! Don't lather your skin in anything (or put anything on sensitive areas - nipples, testicles, eyes area, vulvas (okay that one was for the women...), wherever else you can think of) before patch testing - you never know how you will react.

That said, I took a little time off the thyroid hormone supplementation (just 3 or 4 days, so no where near long enough for the T4 to reach its 2 week half life yet), and then began T3 supplementation again as @EustaceBagge and @area51puy mentioned. I haven't yet looked for the products that @brightside kindly mentioned but will possibly explore this.

However, right nipple is still ever so slightly itchy. Not major - no urge to scratch, and certainly not the painful tenderness that often comes along with gyno / breast development. I have been monitoring it daily and it doesn't look like there's any growth going on at all (but obviously, very difficult to know for sure, or to know if anything has been set into motion).

Also, I will look to try the zinc as @tommyg130 said. If any guys out there are having similar troubles with this (or other estrogenic symptoms) - check his threads out. The guy has gone through some scary stuff, and the turnaround is remarkable - a true inspiration.

Cheers

Now I've actually researched the subject a bit more because I have a similar issue and I got to the conclusion tissue-bound estrogen may be the culprit here. This is because even though I crashed my estrogen with asin (exemestane) I still had slightly sore nipples. Estrogen in the blood can be low and you can still have a lot of tissue-bound estrogen.

Prolactin in a sense is a reflection of how much tissue-bound estrogen you have. When you release this estrogen into the bloodstream things become problematic, but it is a necessary step to fix the general issue. Making sure your liver is strong to detoxify the estrogen, and also that you eat enough fiber to bind the estrogen will ensure healthy cleansing.

One thing that can lower tissue-bound estrogen is progesterone, which t3 increases, so I think that may be the issue your facing. T3 also increases metabolic rate and healthy liver function so your body may be letting go of your tissue-bound estrogen. If you think your liver is in good shape and you also eat some fiber already I don't see how can you improve your situation though. But in a way it would also be weird that t3 supplementation would cause gyno if you think about it.

 

[Metabolism_Red]

AllDayChemist sells cabergoline

 

[BigShoes]

Now I've actually researched the subject a bit more because I have a similar issue and I got to the conclusion tissue-bound estrogen may be the culprit here. This is because even though I crashed my estrogen with asin (exemestane) I still had slightly sore nipples. Estrogen in the blood can be low and you can still have a lot of tissue-bound estrogen.

Prolactin in a sense is a reflection of how much tissue-bound estrogen you have. When you release this estrogen into the bloodstream things become problematic, but it is a necessary step to fix the general issue. Making sure your liver is strong to detoxify the estrogen, and also that you eat enough fiber to bind the estrogen will ensure healthy cleansing.

One thing that can lower tissue-bound estrogen is progesterone, which t3 increases, so I think that may be the issue your facing. T3 also increases metabolic rate and healthy liver function so your body may be letting go of your tissue-bound estrogen. If you think your liver is in good shape and you also eat some fiber already I don't see how can you improve your situation though. But in a way it would also be weird that t3 supplementation would cause gyno if you think about it.

Hey Eustace,

Thanks so much for this (and thanks again everyone else).

I have returned to 1/6 cynomel and 1/6 cynoplus. After the injury from the topical healed, I am experiencing some very slight itching on the very tip of the nipple, but no true "gyno" tenderness like I remember from years ago.

My plan has been:
- continue with thyroid (I measured my temps at 98.2 and 98.5 for the first time ever earlier today, so I have probably found an effective dose at 1/4 of cynomel & cynoplus, maximum).
- increase aspirin dosage - I know some people aren't a fan, but will probably push up to 500mg-1g - I have pure aspirin powder now so fewer additives. Obviously this has lots of effects, but I believe does keep inflammation, estrogen and prolactin down.
- push up my calories an extra 300kcal. I am maintaining my weight on my current diet and have been for some time (2500-2700kcal per day mostly - I am quite sedentary). Hopefully that is a large enough amount to make a difference, but small enough amount that if my body doesn't kick into gear and use it properly, then at least I won't gain fat like crazy
- may start messing around with pyrucet and MB (looow dose) again.
- I have decided to stay away from cabergoline, lisuride and bromocriptine for now - I don't understand them well enough, and the symptom is certainly still minor... I may seek these out if things get worse.

As to your points, yes that does sound interesting, and very plausible. Almost like the cells are systemically letting go of their stressed state, leading to a temporary increase in blood levels of the stress hormones prior to liver detox / excretion. And, as you say, the more sensitive tissues being affected by that elevation.

Then again, it's hard to say if this is actually what is happening. As I mentioned, I am concerned that the downstream DHEA and test is being shuttled to estrogen.

The other thing I'd been reading was that prolactin can spike when blood sugar is low. If this is what is going on with me, it acts as further evidence that quite a lot more additional calories may be needed when taking thyroid (more than I initially thought) as @Peatful says. In other words, the thyroid is ramping up metabolism without the required fuel being there which is further compounding the stress hormones. I am trying to eat to appetite and be in a slight surplus, and always make sure I have plenty of easy food readily available so that I can just go by taste and not be limited to complex meal prep and cooking.

 

[Peatful]

The other thing I'd been reading was that prolactin can spike when blood sugar is low. If this is what is going on with me, it acts as further evidence that quite a lot more additional calories may be needed when taking thyroid (more than I initially thought) as @Peatful says. In other words, the thyroid is ramping up metabolism without the required fuel being there which is further compounding the stress hormones. I am trying to eat to appetite and be in a slight surplus, and always make sure I have plenty of easy food readily available so that I can just go by taste and not be limited to complex meal prep and cooking.

This is excellent to hear

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