Ray Peat On Addiction / Alcoholism

haidut

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Hi all,

I seem to remember that in several of his articles Ray Peat talks about "addiction" and how he doesn't believe the condition actually exists. I think he said something along the lines that "people do things that they perceive making them feel better" and once the stressor is removed the "addiction" stops by itself. Well, a famous study done in the late 1970s seems to confirm that view:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

I find that fascinating, especially given that I know several people who seemed for years to struggle with substance abuse and some of them "recovered" much to the disbelief of their doctors, who had written them off as lifelong addicts that can only be managed but not cured. Needless to say, the above study was vilified and mocked to no end since it goes against the common view of "addiction" and its "genetic predisposition".
I think the message from the study and Peat is this: People (and any other animal) would do what they can to alleviate stress and if drugs/alcohol happen to make the feel better, people will take their drug of choice until they no longer feel stressed. Once the stress is gone, so is the "addiction" and there isn't much magic behind "spontaneous recovery" as doctors like to call it. Another peculiar thing is that in the case of alcohol at least, it is known that it causes temporary increase in ATP since it forces the liver to release its glycogen stores into the blood. So, temporarily at least, alcohol seems to cause effects similar to thyroid hormone until glycogen is depleted. Of course, when taken chronically, alcohol will undermine the very energetic pathway it seems to stimulate initially. Here is another view on the story that seems to confirm the point that people use alcohol as a "fake" thyroid surrogate:

http://www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p13.htm

"...For people with compromised mitochondrial function, alcohol may provide a temporary shot of energy that can energize the brain for dealing with stressful circumstances. This increased energy, combined with muscle relaxation and behavioral disinhibition, can be percieved as a valuable aid to social interaction."

"...The natural production of NADH (in the absence of alcohol) depends on lipoic acid, thiamine and riboflavin. Since lipoic acid and thiamine contain sulfur which may become bound to acetaldehyde, I wonder whether the use of alcohol compromises the very energy pathways it stimulates."

Thoughts?
 

jaguar43

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Very true, really interesting.
 

juanitacarlos

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As someone who has struggled with addiction to both drugs (meth, opiates, cannibas etc) and alcohol, I completely agree with Peat's hypothesis. Once I sorted the underlying issues, and created a better, more stable lifestyle, my apparent addiction to drugs and alcohol ceased. I have been told many times by former counselors/psychs, that it's "unbelievable" I can drink alcohol socially without issues and also take pain meds with codeine or something similar and not relapse. It's honestly like it never happened. And going even further, some of the lingering issues I've had (emotional/moods) have managed to dissipate since I started taking thyroid and "Peating". Very hard to explain to people though.
 

Peata

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haidut said:
Another peculiar thing is that in the case of alcohol at least, it is known that it causes temporary increase in ATP since it forces the liver to release its glycogen stores into the blood. So, temporarily at least, alcohol seems to cause effects similar to thyroid hormone until glycogen is depleted. Of course, when taken chronically, alcohol will undermine the very energetic pathway it seems to stimulate initially.

Could this be a reason why it's acceptable for someone to have one drink per day?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Peata said:
haidut said:
Another peculiar thing is that in the case of alcohol at least, it is known that it causes temporary increase in ATP since it forces the liver to release its glycogen stores into the blood. So, temporarily at least, alcohol seems to cause effects similar to thyroid hormone until glycogen is depleted. Of course, when taken chronically, alcohol will undermine the very energetic pathway it seems to stimulate initially.

Could this be a reason why it's acceptable for someone to have one drink per day?



That's a very intriguing possibility. I guess if people get a temporary shot of energy from a "shot" of alcohol that may help most people cope with the stress of a typical day, without compromising glycogen stores too much. For those stressed out too much, I guess "addiction" commences until their life changes for the better (if ever).
 

jaguar43

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ttramone said:
As someone who has struggled with addiction to both drugs (meth, opiates, cannibas etc) and alcohol, I completely agree with Peat's hypothesis. Once I sorted the underlying issues, and created a better, more stable lifestyle, my apparent addiction to drugs and alcohol ceased. I have been told many times by former counselors/psychs, that it's "unbelievable" I can drink alcohol socially without issues and also take pain meds with codeine or something similar and not relapse. It's honestly like it never happened. And going even further, some of the lingering issues I've had (emotional/moods) have managed to dissipate since I started taking thyroid and "Peating". Very hard to explain to people though.

Thats great,

would you say that the diet helped more ? Or taking thyroid was a better start for the addiction? any comments would be great thanks.
 

charlie

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haidut said:
"...For people with compromised mitochondrial function, alcohol may provide a temporary shot of energy that can energize the brain for dealing with stressful circumstances. This increased energy, combined with muscle relaxation and behavioral disinhibition, can be percieved as a valuable aid to social interaction."

I wonder if this is why the low carbers love their alcohol so much.

I was never a drinker, but every once in a while I would like to tie a few on and get silly. I am totally not interested in it now, at all. Had a chance to drink last weekend with a good friend, and I bowed out. Instead I sat there and watched my friend get toasted but I wasn't the least bit interested in joining in.
 

Peata

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I've noticed the positive effect of one, *maybe* up to 2 drinks depending on tolerance, on things like giving a boost to creativity and reducing performance anxiety. However, any more than that and I just get sloppy. Mental focus deteriorates, physical ability deteriorates, etc. Whatever positive effect it had at one/two drinks, will just go all to crap.
 

messtafarian

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I know for a fact that since I've been eating this way I practically can not drink alcohol. Every time I've tried it just one drink knocks me out and I don't want anymore. I want coca cola! In fact last time I tried a beer it took me an hour to finish and then I had a coke.

This is from a pretty hardcore Soccer Mommy winedrinker, with a history of cycling down into the sauce. I have never had this reaction to alcohol ever in my life.
 

juanitacarlos

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jag2594 said:
ttramone said:
As someone who has struggled with addiction to both drugs (meth, opiates, cannibas etc) and alcohol, I completely agree with Peat's hypothesis. Once I sorted the underlying issues, and created a better, more stable lifestyle, my apparent addiction to drugs and alcohol ceased. I have been told many times by former counselors/psychs, that it's "unbelievable" I can drink alcohol socially without issues and also take pain meds with codeine or something similar and not relapse. It's honestly like it never happened. And going even further, some of the lingering issues I've had (emotional/moods) have managed to dissipate since I started taking thyroid and "Peating". Very hard to explain to people though.

Thats great,

would you say that the diet helped more ? Or taking thyroid was a better start for the addiction? any comments would be great thanks.

Initially, it was thyroid that kicked it off. I did not know how to eat to heal at the time. I tried to eat "healthy" and it made me worse and made me crave alcohol particularly. It's interesting....I was in a live-in facility many years ago and no matter what the drug of choice, we all craved sugar, chocolate and coffee. Probably not a coincidence! I made a heap of progress when I stopped eating PUFA and started eating lots of fruit and drinking lots of coffee. But since I've started Peating the change has been quite amazing.
 

gretchen

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I totally agree. I'm far from an alcoholic; beginning in the late 2000s I started drinking a bottle of wine a week and then later 1-2 drinks with things like pastries and pizza, etc- really more or less just recreational use. In the last year since starting this diet I have had 2 drinks, and seem to have lost all interest in alcohol. I will likely never stock it in my house and will probably not order it with meals etc.

Charlie, I agree with the low-carb thing.
 

BingDing

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Good post, Haidut, I think RP and Alexander have it right. Someone in another post said they "knew for sure" that alcohol gave a great boost in energy.

It is almost a cliche that too many rats in a box produces neurosis, or whatever name might be appropriate and up to date. If life is a competition for scarce resources, such as a cozy den like the rat park, it's no surprise that caged and isolated animals that don't enjoy the resource cannot cope with attractive nuisances like heroin.

Reminds me of caged and isolated star athletes, for example.
 

Peata

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Looking back on my yearly planner, I can sort of see a pattern of drinking most during the luteal phase.

I started recording how many drinks I had each day after I noticed an abrupt increase in daily drinks in summer of 2010, which is when I also started having an explosion of estrogen dominance symptoms.

I don't know if the change in hormones caused increased drinking or the increased drinking caused the hormonal change. I don't think it was the latter because I remember being perplexed about the increase. But I'm sure they both fed each other in a detrimental cycle.

I binged nightly, and paid for it every night with anxiety, heart palpitations, poor sleep, but I kept going back to it to the horror of my rational mind.

Something else strange about it was, for the first time I began to feel way more effect from even one drink than I should have. Unpleasantly drunk, heart palpitations, anxiety, etc. This didn't happen every time, but I began to notice that weird intolerance at times to very little alcohol.

Started having problems with gallbladder by fall 2010. Not stones, but with the contraction.

Anyway, for years before that, I drank for relaxation and sometimes anxiety, but other than occasional overindulgence, it was not like the amount I began drinking in 2010. At that time I pretty much doubled my daily consumption.

So after those years of excessive drinking, I managed to quit in late November of last year. I slept better, looked better, felt better. I could think better, my memory was better. And yet in March of this year I started it up again.

I started into Peat by March 14. My drinking was sporadic, mostly here and there -a few drinks and then none for a few weeks, or one drink every few days or whatever. But then by the end of April, I'd slacked up on my Peat eating and an increase of stress had me drinking nightly, whether it was one or a couple drinks. I could tell a difference in how I looked and felt for the worse.

By the end of May, I got back into my diet more but kept up the drinking. Sometimes daily for a while, sometimes skipping days. Usually binging. Then something happened.

By August (5 months Peat) I was barely drinking. And when I did drink, the pleasure of it was no longer outweighing the negatives.

Was this because I'd started heavy doses of Progest-E a couple weeks before, or was I just doing the "diet" more carefully, or had it just taken that long to really kick in for me, etc. I also started experimenting with l-theanine at the beginning of August, and this also interacts with the GABA receptors like alcohol, so maybe it played some role. Then there were the extra B vitamins and taurine I was getting through an energy drink. I'd read that taurine helped some people come off alcohol. Maybe my body was using the alcohol for thyroid boosts (even though it was destructive in long run) and finally it became healthy enough to let go of the old crutch.

And now I don't want alcohol. Since August 18, I just don't like it or want it. Instead I love Coke or one of my iced coffee drinks, or even OJ, milk, salt, sugar... I'm much more interested in the mood effects I now get from those.

It's not the cognitive-melting, numbly-buzzed effect of alcohol (not to mention dull-headedness, rebound anxiety, paranoia, pounding heart, headache, sleepless, nightmares, etc. of alcohol).

Instead, it's more of a happy, I-love-the-world, bright but chill, motivating, effect.

I even sat and thought about it for a minute last night - trying to conjure up the pleasure of the old habit and effect of alcohol in my memory -to see if I was still interested at all, but it just held no appeal. I really don't understand where the cravings went. It's like a switch was flipped.

Even if I have anxiety come over me, I don't think about alcohol. Somehow my body does not see it as any sort of aid nor medication anymore. This is monumental in itself.

I'm glad for it though.

I guess if anything changes and the cravings come back, I'll check to see if I've changed anything in my diet.

eta: sorry for the book
 

Swandattur

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Wow! This is very interesting! I am sending this to my sister's email for her daughter to read. She has a problem with alcohol, and she does use it to relax.
 

barefooter

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I love RP's theory on addiction, and I think it makes so much sense. I've seen it hold true for myself. Before starting the Peat diet, I would binge heavily on junk food when it was in front of me for free at friends/families houses, potlucks, etc. One reason I did it was because I was nervous in the social situation, but I think there was more to it, as I had a complete inability to control myself. Looking back now, I see that my body was really starving for sugar and salt, and I was only able to maintain my weight by binging a few times a month. Now that I'm getting the nutrients I need, I have no desire to binge on crap food that will make me feel worse.
 

Swandattur

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If I avoid starch totally, I don't get that insatiable hunger problem. I do get hungry, but not in the same way. I think if just eat starch very occasionally, it isn't such a problem. Eating, even a little, regularly is more of a problem, it seems.
 

natedawggh

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Yep! I was a heavy drinker before peating. I didn't even plan on giving up alcohol, but something in my physiology changed after I changed my diet which made drinking less enjoyable. Without meaning to I've only had three drinks in about two months, when out socially and didn't want to drink after one or two total, where before I'd have six or seven once or twice a week.
 
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I drink Pepsi to an insane degree and have never been much of an alcohol drinker. Since caffeine is implicated in decreasing serotonin/prolactin and increasing dopamine, it makes sense that I would drink soda heavily (the CO2 in carbonated beverages also helps). I've taken tianeptine and have never felt as good taking anything else, which leads me to believe that my serotonin must be high.
 

charlie

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solaire_of_astora said:
...... which leads me to believe that my serotonin must be high.
And thats why something like cyproheptadine or tianeptine can speed up the healing process. Too much serotonin is a huge problem. When you can break that cycle of too much serotonin, and move towards generative energy as opposed to degenerative energy. The body can then start repairing whats wrong and moved towards a robust metabolism. :mrgreen:

Ray Peat said:
"If we learn to see problems in terms of a general disorder of energy metabolism, we can begin to solve them."
 

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