pufa storage

Blossom · Feb 10, 2014

I was reflecting on the idea of pufa stored in the body and I had a thought that I wanted to present to the forum for input. The situation when I started a peat inspired approach was a year and a half prior on a very low carb ketogenic paleo diet. In hind sight I'm sure many new problems developed due to fat as my main fuel source. I believe I was liberating and using much of my stored pufa as fuel during that time. When I finally came to my senses I had very little body fat. Most of my body fat now has come from a peat inspired approach so I'm thinking it should be more saturated and monounsaturated. Please chime in with any insights on this topic. To summarize I'm hopeful that I burned through most of my stored pufa already! It may be wishful thinking but you can't blame a girl for having hope.

Mittir · Feb 13, 2014

It is not clear from your post how long have you been on low PUFA diet.
It takes about 3-4 years for body to completely reflect dietary intake of fats.
It takes a bit longer time for elderly people, 60-70 year old.
There is a "Newcastle Study" on 800 calorie diet for diabetic people whose pancreas
function improved when fat deposited in that organ was reduced in 8 weeks.
RP also mentioned that PUFAs are stored in phospholipids and other
molecules, not just storage fat. My experience is that every 4-5 months
of strict PUFA avoidance i have seen a jump like improvement in health.
This makes me wonder if there is a sequential depletion of PUFA.
I have read that there are two kind of fat storage, one that changes
rapidly and other changes slowly.

Ben · Feb 13, 2014

Indeed Mittir, eating a meal consisting of low PUFA and high saturated fat gives a quick change, while changes in content of stored fat would take much longer. I didn't consider that phospholipids and membranes could still contain PUFA for a while. I wonder if myelin, which contains fatty acids, contains PUFA, and if myelin has a rate of turnover like bone and muscle. It breaks down in multiple sclerosis only because of the immune system attacking it, which suggests there is no turnover. Myelin isn't "lost" like bone density or muscle mass is with time. It's interesting that multiple sclerosis happens more frequently with high PUFA consumption.

I'm astounded with the amount of members of this forum which have eaten a low-carb diet before they found RP. I also did this before I found his work. What it sounds like to me is that you're trying to find reasons to think you're healthy and feel happy about that. I would have suggested to "feel" whether you're healthy or not, but some chronically hypothyroid people forgot or don't know what good health feels like. Therefore, it's best to try supplements, foods, and routines and see if you feel better.

lexis · Feb 14, 2014

Furan fatty acids (F-acids) are heterocyclic lipid components with a ... thus are able to protect polyunsaturated fatty acids from lipid peroxidation

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/lite.201300247/abstract

Ben · Feb 14, 2014

Hopefully the health consensus will not be "PUFAs are okay as long as you eat furan fatty acids".

Blossom · Feb 14, 2014

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm in this for the long haul so to speak but I'm hopeful still that I did rid myself of some pufa during that dark period in my life. I wouldnt recommend anyone do what I did and regret having done that myself. I can only learn from my mistakes and move on. I've been minimizing pufa as much as possible for close to 6 months now and have to admit the positive results have completely surprised me. I also have to keep in mind a lot of my problems came from trusting doctors rather than myself. I considered myself pretty emaciated when I finally found Peat so even though I'm sure there is pufa throughout the body it should have been diminished somewhat. At least that's what my logical thinking tells me. All the fat on the surface was nearly gone, I was weak and looked like a skinny teenage boy. I've gained on this approach but needed to so now I'm a healthy weight with beautiful womanly curves. I know those came form the wonderful sugars I so desperately needed.

lexis · Feb 14, 2014

A less exciting approach is high radiation.

Here is the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23484905

I am sure a safer alternative will available

Ben · Feb 14, 2014

lexis said:
A less exciting approach is high radiation.

Here is the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23484905

I am sure a safer alternative will available

A good example of how that's a negative effect can be acquired by looking at the tissue composition of schizophrenics. From RP:

Another theory of schizophrenia based on the computer metaphor has to do with the idea that nerve cells’ wire-like and switch-like functions depend on their membranes, and, in the most popular version, that these all-important membranes are made of fish oil. The supporting evidence is supposed to be that the fish-oil-like fatty acids are depleted from the tissues of schizophrenics. Just looking at that point, the “evidence” is more likely to be the result of stress, which depletes unsaturated fatty acids, especially of the specified type, in producing lipid peroxides and other toxic molecules.

In one of its variations, the “essential fatty acid deficiency” doctrine suggests that a certain prostaglandin deficiency is the cause of schizophrenia, but experiments have shown that an excess of that prostaglandin mimics the symptoms of psychosis.

One of the harmful effects of PUFAs is actually peroxide radical generation. That's why it's good to avoid iron-containing foods, and of course to supplement with red light because it has the opposite effect of ionizing radiation. Fat tissue composition changes over time, and in the meantime the PUFAs should be protected from peroxidation, and lipolysis should be kept at a low level to minimize the effect of the PUFAs on metabolism.

Mittir · Feb 14, 2014

That article simply claiming Furan fatty acid to be a radical scavanger

Despite the low concentrations, some studies produced evidence that the F-acids are excellent radical scavengers and thus are able to protect polyunsaturated fatty acids from lipid peroxidation.http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 7/abstract

There are many antioxidants/chain breaker that lower
lipid peroxidation damage.Peroxidation is not the only harmful part of PUFA .
RP mentioned that the major difference between saturated
and unsaturated fat is the way they bind with proteins.
Here is an example how PUFA lowers transportation of
thyroid hormone.

Ray Peat said:
The great difference in water/oil solubility affects the strength of binding between a fatty acid and the lipophilic, oil-like, parts of proteins. When a protein has a region with a high affinity for lipids that contain double bonds, polyunsaturated fatty acids will displace saturated fats, and they can sometimes displace hormones containing multiple double bonds, such as thyroxine and estrogen, from the proteins that have a high specificity for those hormones. Transthyretin (also called prealbumin) is important as a carrier of the thyroid hormone and vitamin A. The unsaturation of vitamin A and of thyroxin allow them to bind firmly with transthyretin and certain other proteins, but the unsaturated fatty acids are able to displace them, with an efficiency that increases with the number of double bonds, from linoleic (with two double bonds) through DHA (with six double bonds).
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ions.shtml

lexis · Feb 15, 2014

Whats is the source of that schizophrenia article?

Ben · Feb 15, 2014

lexis said:
Whats is the source of that schizophrenia article?

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ties.shtml

himsahimsa · Feb 15, 2014

Blossom:
Iodine conjugates the unsaturated sites on polyunsaturated fatty acids, preventing their peroxidation. By the same mechanism it probably also inhibits their reactivity and binding to tissue proteins and other proteins such as the thyroid hormone transporter at its active site.

I am 65, my primary source of fat since I was a child has been milk fat and meat, but I have been recent years (recent as in 2002ish, damn!) eaten some flax oil and some fish oil because I thought they would be good for me. And though I never use seed oils for cooking and rarely eat processed or prepared food or eat in restaurants, still, I have not scrupulously avoided polyunsaturated fatty acids, so I know that I have stored them.

So, to blunt their impact (and because it may have other beneficial effects) I have been using Lugol's (iodine) solution for about two years. Obviously this is a subjective evaluation but I would say it's effect has been entirely wholesome.

I think the organism, me in this case, if it is attended to consciously, conscientiously, will indicate, will trope, will gravitate towards or away from substances that are beneficial or inimical most of the time, at least if it is already more or less healthy. So, for instance, while using high grade, i.e. molecularly distilled or just high purity fish oil I found that after going through a bottle or two even though I believed it was good for me, I began to resist getting it out, pouring it into a spoon and drinking it, not because there was something objectionable about the flavor or the odor or the feeling in my mouth, but just because because, so I stopped taking it. Something inside said don't. But with the iodine that doesn't happen or hasn't yet. Even if I am thinking maybe this is a little much, I still feel drawn to take it. That's pretty unscientific. But hey.

Anyway it helps me feel better about those stored the PUFA's that I'll probably be carrying around till I drop. I was envious when I read your post that you had emaciated yourself and so could sort of start fresh.

Blossom · Feb 15, 2014

I didn't emaciated myself intentionally but it did happen nonetheless. Ironically toward the end of the nightmare I was using iodine. I also remember being repulsed by evening primrose oil! I thought it was odd that something that had to be refrigerated could be an important part of our warm blooded bodies. I wish I had trusted my instincts more but like they say "better late than never"!

himsahimsa · Feb 15, 2014

Nightmare as in you went from heath to not on Paleo? Or from unhealth to worse on Paleo? Or something else entirely?

Blossom · Feb 15, 2014

himsahimsa said:
Nightmare as in you went from heath to not on Paleo? Or from unhealth to worse on Paleo? Or something else entirely?

From poor health to feeling like I was dying on paleo after the adrenaline high started breaking me down completely I suppose. It didn't help that I was on estrogen too. I feel lucky to be where I am today and have Ray Peat to thank for it.

Mittir · Feb 15, 2014

@Blosssom
I want to clarify what i wrote about the time required to change fatty acid
composition. That 3-4 years numbers are based on regular diet of population
without taking into account fat loss. If a person lose fat over time their
fat removal process will be shorter. Since you were losing weight
on a calorie restricted diet you were using ingested and stored fat as
energy source. RP has mentioned that if a person use PUFA as energy as
soon as they ingest it then there is little harm. Source of problem is the
stored PUFA. RP thinks safest way to replace PUFA is to lowering PUFA intake
and inhibit the release of PUFA, this results in a slow replacement of PUFA.
Fasting or calorie restricted diet can be quite risky when one has a lot of stored PUFA.
Niacinamide and Aspirin both are very useful in blocking PUFA release.
Another way to change the ratio of Saturated fat to PUFA is to ingest
a little extra carbohydrate so that will convert to pure saturated fat
and change the saturated fat to PUFA ratio.

Blossom · Feb 15, 2014

Thanks Mittir. I do use both aspirin and niacinamide as well as maintaining a low pufa intake. Regardless of how much pufa remains in my tissues I'm certain it is important to protect myself as they will be released. I also make sure to have plenty of sugars as my primary fuel source these days.

Kray · Mar 11, 2014

himsahimsa said:
Blossom:
Iodine conjugates the unsaturated sites on polyunsaturated fatty acids, preventing their peroxidation. By the same mechanism it probably also inhibits their reactivity and binding to tissue proteins and other proteins such as the thyroid hormone transporter at its active site.

I am 65, my primary source of fat since I was a child has been milk fat and meat, but I have been recent years (recent as in 2002ish, damn!) eaten some flax oil and some fish oil because I thought they would be good for me. And though I never use seed oils for cooking and rarely eat processed or prepared food or eat in restaurants, still, I have not scrupulously avoided polyunsaturated fatty acids, so I know that I have stored them.

So, to blunt their impact (and because it may have other beneficial effects) I have been using Lugol's (iodine) solution for about two years. Obviously this is a subjective evaluation but I would say it's effect has been entirely wholesome.

I think the organism, me in this case, if it is attended to consciously, conscientiously, will indicate, will trope, will gravitate towards or away from substances that are beneficial or inimical most of the time, at least if it is already more or less healthy. So, for instance, while using high grade, i.e. molecularly distilled or just high purity fish oil I found that after going through a bottle or two even though I believed it was good for me, I began to resist getting it out, pouring it into a spoon and drinking it, not because there was something objectionable about the flavor or the odor or the feeling in my mouth, but just because because, so I stopped taking it. Something inside said don't. But with the iodine that doesn't happen or hasn't yet. Even if I am thinking maybe this is a little much, I still feel drawn to take it. That's pretty unscientific. But hey.

Anyway it helps me feel better about those stored the PUFA's that I'll probably be carrying around till I drop. I was envious when I read your post that you had emaciated yourself and so could sort of start fresh.

Himsahimsa: I had been taking an iodine as Iodoral but stopped, based on all the negative things people have said about it on these blogs. However, I have never found any discussion here about the bromines and fluorines that we are exposed to which compete with the iodine for the thyroid gland, and I know we have this issue in our time. So, how do we really know we're getting enough iodine? Anecdotally, people who take it have sworn by it, you included.

Do you plan to take the iodine long-term, and do you feel it is a benefit beyond the PUFA issue? I completely understand the "sense" one has about taking something or not. There is also muscle testing, if that works for you.

Also, do you supplement with thyroid? I'm not quite sure if that is a concern as to whether thyroid and iodine taken together is good or bad. One of my adult daughters, who does not take thyroid, was taking the iodine with me. She wasn't sure it had helped her when she stopped it and started using a good brand of kelp which has a low dose of iodine, but today she just said that when she practices her violin lately, her hands and feet feel really cold and clammy, whereas not before when she was taking the Iodoral (she was taking about 1/2 tab per day, or 6.25mg). She attributes this to discontinuing iodine. I think the kelp only contains less than 1gm of iodine.

mas · Mar 12, 2014

Classicallady,

I think you are bringing up a very good question re the bromines and fluoride compounds. I have read quite a few recommendations in the alternative holistic area for supplemental iodine, but RP thinks most people have more than enough. That said, perhaps some find it beneficial. I am very skeptical of most medical tests in general, and I wonder if such a test exists that could supposedly indicate an iodine insufficiency?

The water fluoridation was a complete "scientific" scam and harmful and yet the powerful fluoride interests keep lobbying to add new towns & cities to the list.

www.fluoridealert.org/issues/health/endocrine/

My hometown became fluoridated in the mid 60's and I wonder about adverse health effects along with all the other numerous environmental toxins. It is not just drinking water, we bathe in this and the poison goes right into our skin.

People in their communities must educate residents and fight to get rid of it and to make sure it doesn't get in if their town is unfluoridated.

Unfortunately our food supply would probably be irrigated with this poison and lots of others.

My understanding is that fluoride accumulates in our bones. I doubt that there exists a commercial medical test that would reveal this info to the public.

Kray · Mar 12, 2014

Mas:

Our city began fluorosilicic acid some 4 years ago now. http://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content ... d-page.htm We were unsuccessful in our campaign against implementation.

You bring up an important point about its absorption via the skin. Unlike other minerals, it is not removed through typical (carbon) water filters, due to its small molecular size.

This is an informative article about fluoride: lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/fluoride/
An interesting note under, "Nutrient Interactions". Calcium and magnesium to the rescue, good to know.

I read that Dr Peat doesn't believe simple bromine is something to be too worried about, but some of its other forms are of concern (not sure which ones he mentioned- you could probably word search it).

I'm not sure about testing and have never looked into it.

There must be something to its (iodine) benefits, as I have read many reviews of users of some of the more popular forms of iodine (Lugol's, Iodoral), some of whom say they were either able to reduce or eliminate the need for thyroid medication.

Anyway, I'm still concerned about the halogens that we may be exposed to on a regular basis, fluoride just being one of them. It would be nice to know, but I wonder if iodine is one of those, like progesterone or vitamin C, that Big Pharma isn't going to profit by selling, so there is no money given to research.

Thanks for the discussion, I hope we'll see more on this in the future, and less fluoride in our water!

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