"training Our Bodies To Deal With Glucose"

managing

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Suikerbuik wrote:
"Excess glucose in the bloodstream leads to glycosilation, high osmotic pressure, insulin release with all kind of effects, and other things. Therefore glucose clearance is important. However, by training our bodies to deal with glucose our glucose clearance get's better. When we avoid glucose or sugar we (likely) become less able to deal with glucose and when avoiding glucose for prolonged periods of time and going very low in carbs. We possibly even induce impaired glucose tolerance (pre-diabteic state)."

I think there are a lot of us here who have gone the low carb route previously and are now looking to train our bodies to deal with glucose. I would love to hear your thoughts on HOW to do that training. Real, practical, step by step stuff, including how to recognize progress and how to get to a "normal" ability to metabolize sugar. I get Peat, but there is a vast gulf between "insulin resistant" and Peat, and you can't just recklessly dive in. Anybody wanna take a stab at a roadmap?
 

Suikerbuik

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There's not really a plan or one size fits all. A blood sugar measurement device can help you out the best I think, to get an impression about your bloodsugar and maybe associated symptoms (differs per person).

- niacinamide to suppress free fatty acid (ffa) release
- avoid stress which also releases ffa's
- plenty of sleep for repair
- get the majority of your calories from carbohydrates, preferable taken multiple times throughout the day. For example sip orange juice with added sugar or milk with sugar.
- eat enough fructose, since fructose skips the first and the possibly harmed pathways
- If needed use thyroid, which spares glucose and leads to better function of electron transport chain function so helps the TCA cycle and glycolysis (so less lactid acid which means increased CO2 and less burden).
- If needed keep inflammation in check, preferable the natural way (sleep, little stress) and only if necessary take drugs. Aspirin is an exception that could help you, but I wouldn't do long-term.
- there's obviously more things but these should help you most.
 
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managing

managing

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I do use a glucometer. Right now, I sip OJ, milk, eat fruit, all day. I have learned to throttle it so that my BG stays between say 100 and 110. It doesn't take much sugar for this. This is great, and really makes me feel good. But now I want to build up so that if I am going to be away from a steady sugar source, I can frontload and last longer and not experience a huge spike or crash.
 
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managing

managing

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Is this seriously all the help anybody has to offer? Is the problem not clear? There are many with diabetes, prediabetes, insulin resistance, etc. Just pouring hundreds of grams/day of sugar down their throats on day 1 would be reckless and stupid (and yes, I went back and applied my hyperbole meter to that: reckless and stupid it stands).

Yet, I DO believe there must be a way to "train our bodies to deal with glucose" which is why I started this thread by quoting what I thought was a brilliant insight.

But there is a vast gulf between "diabetic" and "Peating". There is no doubt that RP provides a guideline for how to optimize or maintain healthy glucose metabolism (don't mistake me for a hater or troll). But there is little insight here, in his writing, or anywhere else on how to move from a deranged metabolism to a healthy metabolism.

Just to be clear, it is the sugar I am focused on. The other stuff can mostly apply out of the box and is generally plain and helpful. But building up glucose clearance will take time and it is unclear if there is any insight in how to move from point a to point b?

The flip side of that that seems also to be a blind spot in the Peat community is belly fat. Its been brought up here and at peatarian, but the truth is, I've never seen an adequate answer. Belly fat is bad. The reasons should be obvious to anyone versed in Peat. So yeah, if your healthy now, follow RP guidance to never develop belly fat. Woohoo! Oh, you have an estrogen storage device around your middle? Oh that's bad, you should do something about that. What? Exercise? No. Withhold calories? No. Withhold fat? Okay, so the community seems divided about that one, but really, I've never seen withholding fat do a damn thing.

So, seriously, does anybody have any thoughts here on how to move to that great place of normalized metabolism, instead of just rehashing what RP says about an ideal diet?

Or do you think people with a deranged diet should throw away the glucometer, open up the sugar bowl and hope for the best?
 

Peata

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I agree, managing, it's a problem for people like me with insulin resistance. It's insane for me to keep throwing more sugar at this, as it is not getting utilized properly. I'm sure once things get properly working I can use more sugar, or for people who don't already have this problem now, they can use plenty of sugars.

This belly fat is not healthy. I don't know what the answer is for a person to transfer from say, low carb, to Peat. I probably should have introduced sugars more slowly. When I started Peat, I only had about 5# I wanted to lose, but I may have been mildly insulin resistant at that time. Following the foods as best I knew how, I gained another 5# which I couldn't lose. The more I've raised carbs and calories (keeping over 2000 to help thyroid, metabolism), the more I've gained - but even when lowering calories, fat, starch, etc. etc. it hasn't made a difference. It was my fault over the winter that I gained so much and put myself into severe insulin resistance. I was going through a tough time and ate for comfort. I've been trying to lose to no avail. I don't know what else to do other than lower calories some and carbs as well. Lowering carbs is really the only thing I haven't tried all this time because it seems to go against what I keep reading in RP circles. But I don't mean going low carb, just back to what my carbs were when I started and wasn't gaining like crazy.

I'm not saying the RP ideas don't work, those without my issues seem to do just fine. It's just that for those of us with insulin issues, things need to be handled differently. If anyone has any ideas, I'm open.
 

pboy

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no you cant have him, I get Peat! and I will recklessly dive in...and I have no interest at stabbing a roadmap!


improving glucose tolerance requires almost every nutrient necessary for the body, and good blood flow, and good air flow...so maximizing glucose usability is pretty much like getting healthier and cleaner in every aspect, even stronger to an extent (more skeletal muscle). The main acute factor is simply having enough B vitamins and potassium everyday, more than you probably think, and that is huge for glucose processing. A simple referancee is...are you happy, are you breathing fully, are you wanting to eat or are you wanting to get up and act and express yourself and progress towards something? glucose lack or intolerance (and therefore lack) is pretty much the opposite of all of that

edit: and also...its not something you 'get' , its something that has to be maintained every day or it will pretty quickly start slowing down
 

Suikerbuik

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Well, basicly everything is mentioned. Think you read over it. Inflammation is culprit for most and certainly not deniable.

However about inflammation many things can be written (books literally) and can provide you really decent information. But:
A) Most things go beyond my knowledge as the interactome is HUGE.
B) Explaining to (most) people is almost impossible and very very time consuming.
C) Everyone is different.
D) Last but cerainly not least, unfortunately most things are still unknown..

In my opinion diabetics is a disease as are obesity and insulin resistance. I have expressed my concerns about Peat's advice several times on this forum and just don't think it's the whole story. In short peating great fine when healthy, great when unhealthy (at least when listening to your body and not forcing) but for most affected by disease more may be needed as more things are involved in disease. The things I mentioned fit this RP forum, are understandable to most and most important useful in practice.

Then the body is a living system. When one is delaing with chronic issues, these didn't come overnight. Regaining homeostasis takes time, application of useful tricks being provided by i.e. Peat and "luck" . To what extent regeneration happens is also a question to be answered. At least in theory based on preliminary studies much is possible. Certainly if we get to know our initial stressors (pufa is one).

In my opinion, this was the “Top Anti-aging Story” of 2013 – The story of how mitochondrial dysfunction is not due to intrinsic mitochondrial degeneration (i.e. the Free Radical Theory of Aging or the Wear and Tear theory) but due to inadequate expression of mitochondrial encoded genes which are controlled by cell nuclear factors.
link

The quote above summarizes best what I mean. Metabolism is a crucial point, but influenced by other things that may need to be dealt with too. Especially in some cases.
 
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managing

managing

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Peata, it looks like we are asking the same questions. I have ever so slight of an insight on the sugar front, so I will share it:

For about two weeks, I have been consuming a little bit of sugar all day long. Milk, fruit, OJ, chocolate. The key has been very, very slowly. Many people on here would laugh at it: a 6 oz glass of OJ over the course of an hour or two for example. But it feels great. Really great. Higher temps, calm, more energy, focus, less inflammation.

I believe, I am guessing, that I am retraining my body to utilize sugar instead of fat and protein. I bet I am getting 100-150 grams of sugar/day. That is nothing in a peat world. If my body is really "learning", then my BG will get flatter and I will increase. It may be too soon to see that happening. Does anybody think it will?

On the fat front, I have less insight, except to say that sugaring up as described above hasn't added a pound. So far anyway. RP is clearly not a weight loss diet, but it seems to me like RP needs to have a serious talk/article on the topic. I think I understand why he would avoid it. But the bottom line is that it is necessary to take his work seriously. If you accept that excess estrogen has bad effects, you have to accept the notion that losing belly fat (for many) is going to be a necessary action.
 

pboy

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sugar is associated with happy and fun, not fear and sickness...poor sugar, its been defiled so bad the past few hundred years

Peat sometimes mentions weight loss here and there, the reason he doesn't go into detail is because its implied that by increasing your metabolic rate and
efficiency (what Peat promotes) you will automatically lose excess weight over time. He does mention coconut oil, that he lost extra weight even adding extra calories of coconut oil, and that you can not add extra fat and use skim milk to help the process. I have no experience with weight loss so I cant help personally
 

Peata

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Yes, but we aren't reviling sugar - we want sugar as much as anyone else. We aren't using it if it can't get in the cells properly. That has to be fixed first. Speaking for myself, I have my temps up at the proper times as far as I know. Pulse is good. Coconut oil check. Whole milk - no go. It would appear "fixed" to most, but that's not quite enough in my case. It's a problem not many Peaters here have, thankfully. The rest of us are working on it as best we can.
 
OP
managing

managing

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I've been grateful that I handle milk (whole) well. It really helps me sleep, presumably by keeping my BG moderate.

Just to emphasize: pboy, you couldn't be more right about sugar being wrongly demonized. I am a believer. But also realistic. If i consumed sugar at the rate most talk about here I would be sitting on ruined kidneys and a host of other problems.

That said, I sense it getting better. And maybe that is the only answer. Patience and persistence.

But as far as weight loss goes, I challenge you on two fronts.

First, its not about weight. Its about fat around the middle. Its RP that has taught us how unhealthy that is. Anybody who wants to lose weight for vanity or simple obsession should look elsewhere.

Second, I disagree that "the reason he doesn't go into detail is because its implied that by increasing your metabolic rate and efficiency (what Peat promotes) you will automatically lose excess weight over time." Regardless of his intent (I think its because "weight loss" is such a shallow motive that it would devalue his work), I just don't see this happening. Its not just me, people are complaining all over the internet about gaining fat (belly) yet feeling great when following RP guidelines. Yet RP himself teaches us the dangers of belly fat.

Some of this no doubt comes from making mistakes like overconsuming, going halfway, or not sufficiently feeding their metabolism. But that is exactly the point. RP, for all his brilliance (I am a lover, not a hater) does not provide much practical guidance. Don't mistake me to mean that his notion of proper nutrition is flawed. I mean that his stuff is all science and theory. HUGELY useful science and theory. But there is no praxis there (no criticism, praxis tends to limit breakthrough and vice versa). We, as a community, are going to have to fill that hole. We have to be willing to share our experience, our mistakes, and our successes with each other.

I suspect RP used to do this a lot in his personal consultations. But he stepped back from that (and good for him). Its left a bit of a void, and its getting too big for him anyway (which is a good, strike that, great thing).

But the bottom line is we can't stand behind RP and say it has to be right. Life happens. RP comes along. Disruption ensues. Life continues happening. We're living, not theorizing. ANd that means belly fat lives. Belly fat must go.

"increasing your metabolic rate and efficiency" really IS the answer. And the gulf is still huge.
 

leo

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I came to this forum almost one year ago and immediately dove into Peating. I gained 15lbs. I posted a few times, but like you,(managing and Peata) found no answers to my belly fat problems so moved on. I continued to play around with different eating methods but always keeping in mind Peat principles ie, low PUFA and avoiding things that are just plain wrong (processed foods), no matter which woe you employ. The weight gain finally stopped, and I was eating pretty freely and not paying attention to caloric intake, carbs, etc. I was back to enjoying life and not having to obsess over what I put into my mouth. Those were good months.

Now with two children planning weddings....I want to lose those 15lbs. Health AND vanity are factors. I will not lie, I want to look nice while being healthy. Lately I've tried carb cycling and I am excited that it may be working to shed some pounds without having to give up my oj, milk and fruits. There are many ways to do it, but basically it is cycling low carb days with high carb days. I have lost 3 or 4 lbs and my abdomen is flatter. I'm only sorry I waited to long to try it.

For those with issues...you may want to try it. I will never go low carb for an extended period, but 2 or 3 days a week does not bother me. Then, once all the extra weight is gone, I MAY try entering Peat woe eating again AT A MUCH SLOWER PACE.

And lastly, didn't I read once that Peat used to work in a weight loss clinic when he was younger??
 

pboy

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managing, a nice post and I feel you, agree...don't know what other advice to offer, just keep up the dedication to what you know is right, and eventually smooth out all the rough edges and optimize, it takes time and after a certain point seems to become individual, so I think the Peat main diet and recommendations are a baseline that could bring anyone to a good state, but to get really personally satisfied, and really healthy, a little bit of unique personality has to be in there, and its basically whatever your mind wants to accept as something for you that you can digest physically and mentally

the best thing I can offer as for sugar is potassium and b vitamins, copper and chromium seem to be pretty important too, and basic thyroid having enough prt, selenium, zinc, iodine...usually most satisfy the thyroid nutrient without much trying. I wish you well, look for signs of things in your day to day life, cravings and those times you are eating something 'to get something' rather than because it compels you to and looks and seems highly appealing, and make mental notes...the eating 'to get something' but when something else might have been beckoning to you is an instance where theres probably some kind of logical or personal or deeper thing, or just straight nutrional scientific reason why, and at the end of the day we are serving our own individual unique guts and dna, that are purposely delivering us, only us, particular messages and feelings at certain times
 

kiran

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I'm going to have to agree with pboy here. The reason why blood glucose is high tends to vary from person to person. One problem in my case was elevated PTH (I'm not discounting other issues that may have fixed themselves over the past year), for which I'm taking calcium and vit D.

It's really really hard for us to guess what issues you might be having without extensive bloodwork, and even then things like elevated cellular estrogen aren't easily visible in blood tests.

Also, see if you can connect those practical observations to some theory, and try to understand what's going on. For instance I get a sniffle after eating yogurt, but I feel better generally. Plus I sometimes get burning in the gut (ulcers). So I guess I might have issues with H. Pylori or some other bacteria (lactobacilli in yogurt fight H. Pylori).

There's also other sources of stress like a lack of resources etc, and they might be significant. I only lost my belly fat after fixing the non-dietary stress issues.
 
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managing

managing

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Kiran, What would you tell somebody who does not experience significant non-dietary stress? How would you deal with belly fat then? Through RPs ways, I have my temps and pulse close to a good range most of the time. I feel great. Most of the the time. I've been at this point for months. I try to take as little supplements as possible. I don't have adverse reactions to food, but often I do to supplements.

But just yesterday, I tried to up the sugar beyond the titration (a tiny amount, continuous) that works great and ended up sleeping for an hour after my BG spiked midday.

And that belly fat isn't going anywhere and I still get unexplained spikes in prolactin that seem to come out of nowhere. I would say the symptoms of estrogen dominance are mostly gone, but low T (or at least DHT) linger.
 

HDD

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"Animals that lack the unsaturated fatty acids have a higher metabolic rate and ability to use glucose, converting it to CO2 more readily, have a greater resistance to toxins (Harris, et al., 1990; even cobra venom: Morganroth, et al., 1989), including endotoxin (Li, et al., 1990)– preventing excessive vascular leakage–and to immunological damage (Takahashi, et al., 1992), and to trauma, and their neuromuscular response is accelerated while fast twitch muscles are less easily fatigued (Ayre and Hulber, 1996).”
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/1 ... endotoxin/

It takes time (4 yrs? :eek: ) to get the Pufa's out of our bodies. Things should improve as you go longer without pufa.


This post from Mittir is full of helpful advice-

"We are so used to living at a low metabolic state that it is hard to cope with
increased metabolism. I had to eat a lot every 2-3 hours to feel good, i feel bad
without food, not only regular food but i have to maintain high nutrient intake.
I lived most of my life without eating liver, now i feel down if i skip liver for
few days. Thyroid energizes the liver but stored PUFA and endotoxins are the one
weakening liver. You will need a Free fatty acid inhibitor to minimize the PUFA release,
i have got great result with Niacinamide, 100 mg 3 times a day with meal.
Aspirin lowers FFA release but i have not experimented with Aspirin yet.
I have found coffee very helpful in improving liver function.
I can go long hours without any food. RP has also mentioned high serotonin and tryptophan lowering glycogen storage. He mentioned gelatin and BCCA having anti-serotonin activity.
B1 and B2 are very helpful in energizing liver. RP recommended DHEA for diabetic
people. Small amount of DHEA 2-5 mg can help managing blood sugar.
Fructose and Galactose are good at refilling liver glycogen."


My bold.

IIRC, Mittir also has lost weight and gained muscle without exercise.
 

kiran

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managing said:
Kiran, What would you tell somebody who does not experience significant non-dietary stress? How would you deal with belly fat then? Through RPs ways, I have my temps and pulse close to a good range most of the time. I feel great. Most of the the time. I've been at this point for months. I try to take as little supplements as possible. I don't have adverse reactions to food, but often I do to supplements.

But just yesterday, I tried to up the sugar beyond the titration (a tiny amount, continuous) that works great and ended up sleeping for an hour after my BG spiked midday.

And that belly fat isn't going anywhere and I still get unexplained spikes in prolactin that seem to come out of nowhere. I would say the symptoms of estrogen dominance are mostly gone, but low T (or at least DHT) linger.

The belly fat is an indicator that you've settled at a somewhat higher stress level. Perhaps that little bit of stress keeps you feeling great too? (at least for a little while)

I can't guess at this source of stress. One thought is that it might be a lack of calcium, how much are you getting? Have you tested PTH/vit D/serum Calcium levels?

What was the source of the sugar? Are you sure it was a BG spike? Could it have been a sudden drop in stress?

Are you getting adequate zinc/copper/selenium/vitamin A?

What are the symptoms of the prolactin spikes?
 

tinkerer

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managing said:
In this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4124&start=10

Suikerbuik wrote:
"Excess glucose in the bloodstream leads to glycosilation, high osmotic pressure, insulin release with all kind of effects, and other things. Therefore glucose clearance is important. However, by training our bodies to deal with glucose our glucose clearance get's better. When we avoid glucose or sugar we (likely) become less able to deal with glucose and when avoiding glucose for prolonged periods of time and going very low in carbs. We possibly even induce impaired glucose tolerance (pre-diabteic state)."

I think there are a lot of us here who have gone the low carb route previously and are now looking to train our bodies to deal with glucose. I would love to hear your thoughts on HOW to do that training. Real, practical, step by step stuff, including how to recognize progress and how to get to a "normal" ability to metabolize sugar. I get Peat, but there is a vast gulf between "insulin resistant" and Peat, and you can't just recklessly dive in. Anybody wanna take a stab at a roadmap?
Thanks for this thread, Managing! It's comforting to know that there are other people out there for whom just adding more carbs isn't enough. I don't feel so alone. Sure, some people just add back carbs and that works great for them, and I'm happy for them. Congrats! For others of us, the solution is not so simple, and simply adding more carbs, whether quickly or very slowly, doesn't work quite as well for us, and we seem to need other helps. We recognize that all carbs are not pure poison, yet we need more help with them. I empathize with all the folks out there for whom this is the case. "Just add more carbs" isn't always enough, even when done gradually over lengthy periods of time, just like "just add more fat" also didn't work for many folks.

I suspect that one of the factors behind why results vary between individuals may be microbiota, especially gut microbiota, and there are likely many other factors, such as circadian rhythms, and perhaps some that haven't even been discovered yet.

I am employing many of the recommendations beyond diet mentioned by Suikerbuik and others, such as niacinamide, plenty of sleep, meditation, managing stress, coconut oil, low-fat milk (in my case, traditional buttermilk), various nutrients, etc. I'm even trying another carb that rarely gets mentioned--trehalose, in both whole-food and supplement form (BTW, I'd love to see LC dogmatists try to demonize trehalose :lol: ). I suspect that the best we can do is try various things, get various test, and share results, stay optimistic and hope for the best. Good luck!

One thing I noted that Ray Peat discussed multiple times that his fans don't seem to talk about much, is that he said (paraphrasing the best I can) some of those who have screwed up metabolisms and eat more glucose are not able to fully metabolize the glucose and it gets converted into lactate instead of energy, worsening the problem. Unfortunately, in the interviews I've heard, he leaves it there and the interviewer tends to move on to something else. So the question seems to be, how to improve the metabolism to more fully process glucose into energy instead of lactate, and that's where I'm hoping the other tips will help.
 
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managing

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The belly fat is an indicator that you've settled at a somewhat higher stress level. Perhaps that little bit of stress keeps you feeling great too? (at least for a little while)

There is no doubt that cortisol and adrenaline, in moderation, feel good. But in my case, I am sure the stress is physiological, not social. I have learned to tell the difference between "revved up and happy" and "calm and happy".

I can't guess at this source of stress. One thought is that it might be a lack of calcium, how much are you getting? Have you tested PTH/vit D/serum Calcium levels?

As I mentioned, many supplements give me weird responses. Vit D for example raised my blood pressure and maid me short of breath. However, calcium (eggshell) is one of the few that I have tolerated long term with good benefits. Clearly improves my oxygen utilization. No labs.
What was the source of the sugar? Are you sure it was a BG spike? Could it have been a sudden drop in stress?

[Nah, its a VERY familiar pattern to those with insulin resistance issues. It was a very yummy chicken mole tamale. I have taken too much (relative) progesterone and had a very peaceful midday nap. This is different.


Are you getting adequate zinc/copper/selenium/vitamin A?

I take zinc orotate and Vit A a few times a week. More than that and I get funky results. Headaches or high BP, etc.
What are the symptoms of the prolactin spikes?

Shortness of breath predominantly. I just switched pregnenolone from 15mg topical to 50mg oral (from Beyond a Century). It might be related, as I haven't taken it the last few days and I think am better this AM. But i have had this mystery occurrence before, but it may always be related to metabolism of pregnenolone.
 

kiran

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managing said:
As I mentioned, many supplements give me weird responses. Vit D for example raised my blood pressure and maid me short of breath. However, calcium (eggshell) is one of the few that I have tolerated long term with good benefits. Clearly improves my oxygen utilization. No labs.
A negative response to vit D is pretty typical of high PTH. If you got labs the pattern would be high-normal PTH, low vit D, high-normal Calcium or something like that.

Get the labs, preferably in the morning for best results. It's not adequate to take some calcium, you must take enough calcium and vit D to suppress PTH. vit D might be uncomfortable in the beginning, because it's rapidly converted to the active form by high PTH and that will increase serum calcium. There are ways to deal with high serum calcium.

[Nah, its a VERY familiar pattern to those with insulin resistance issues. It was a very yummy chicken mole tamale. I have taken too much (relative) progesterone and had a very peaceful midday nap. This is different.
There's many things in chicken tamale that might cause a glucose spike. It might be the corn or the chicken or ...?
There's lots of starch in the corn you know.
I take zinc orotate and Vit A a few times a week. More than that and I get funky results. Headaches or high BP, etc.
You should add your diet up in cronometer, and see if you're getting adequate copper and selenium.

What are the symptoms of the prolactin spikes?

Shortness of breath predominantly. I just switched pregnenolone from 15mg topical to 50mg oral (from Beyond a Century). It might be related, as I haven't taken it the last few days and I think am better this AM. But i have had this mystery occurrence before, but it may always be related to metabolism of pregnenolone.
Hmm. Are you taking 50mg of the powder, or is it a cap?
 

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