Altitude Tent - Worth It?

pyttsan · Jun 26, 2014

Lately I've been playing with the idea of buying an altitude tent from http://www.hypoxico.com/products/deluxe-bed-tent/

I got a quote from them and their Everest Summit II Generator with a tent is approximately 3,500 USD.
This is a whooole lot of money for me but I'd be ready to cough up, if it would have a major impact on my health.

What do you guys think, could it be worth it or might any possible benefits be too small for me to even notice?

jaguar43 · Jun 26, 2014

Have you tried diamox or a carbon dioxide tank ?

Milklove · Jun 26, 2014

Also simply doing bagbreathing will give you a good impression how increased co2 feels like.

visionofstrength · Jun 27, 2014

Hypoxia from the hypoxico tent is very dangerous, as RP points out; it can cause internal bleeding and even bleeding from the retinas. http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/altit ... lity.shtml.

RP suggests bag breathing for its effect of increasing carbon dioxide, NOT for its hypoxia. As RP says: "'Mountain sickness' is a potentially deadly condition that develops in some people when they ascend too rapidly to a high altitude. Edema of the lungs and brain can develop rapidly, leading to convulsions and death. The standard drug for preventing it is acetazolamide, which inhibits carbonic anhydrase and causes carbon dioxide to be retained, creating a slight tendency toward acidosis. This treatment probably mimics the retention of carbon dioxide that occurs naturally in altitude adapted people."

Milklove · Jun 27, 2014

You are right that mountain sickness is a very serious condition and it is caused by a loss of carbon dioxide. However this only occurs if you ascend too fast to a high altitude.
Ray Peat is big fan of living at high altitude due to the decreased oxygen pressure and the fact that you retain more co2 once you are adapted to it.

visionofstrength · Jun 27, 2014

Agreed, Milklove. RP is a big fan of *living* at high altitude. But he cautions that "Hypoxia itself (produced by factors other than irritation) can induce vasodilation, and if prolonged sufficiently, tends to produce neovascularization and fibrosis."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

Important takeaway: subjecting yourself to intermittent hypoxia in a hypoxico tent is NOT the same as living at high altitude for such a long time that you gradually become adapted to it.

RP also believes that it's NOT decreased oxygen that directly causes the benefits of high altitude. Instead, he thinks it's the "Haldane effect", and this comes from the body's ability to carry more carbon dioxide in the blood when there is a lower partial pressure of O2. In other words, delivering more carbon dioxide to the tissue provides the benefit, NOT intermittent hypoxia (decreasing the oxygen).

In RP's words: "Warburg believed that mitochondria supported specialized cell functions by concentrating themselves in the places where energy is needed. This idea has some interesting implications. For example, when the amount of thyroid hormone is increased, or when the organism adapts to a high altitude, the number of mitochondria increases. But in energy deficient states such as diabetes, they don't. How are these crucial organelles called into existence by the hormone that increases respiration and energy, and also by the hypoxic conditions of high altitudes? In both of these conditions, the availability of oxygen is limiting the ability to produce energy. In both conditions, carbon dioxide concentration in tissue is higher, in one case, because thyroid stimulates its production, in the other, because the Haldane effect limits its loss from the lungs."
http://members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/peat4.htm

Milklove · Jun 27, 2014

Hypoxia is a very important issue that you are adresssing. For example I don't believe that it is beneficial to instantly move from sea level to a really high altitude. If people do that they can experience severe symptoms, which can be reduced for example by bag bag breathing, since it restores healthy co2 levels in the unadapted individuals.
The cool thing about those tents is that they are designed for competitive athletes and allow a progressive adaption to altitude. So for example you increase the simulated altitude by 500m each month or so.
The next aspect is that you are going to use the tent while you are sleeping. Your body is able to retain increased amounts of CO2 in your sleep. This protects against hypoxia.
Intermittent exposure to (simulated) high altitude is actually a quite gentle way of adapting to high altitude.

visionofstrength · Jun 27, 2014

Some of these claims of "gentle adaptation" made by hypoxico and other vendors of extravagant tents may not be true. For example, there are many caveats that have never been tested for. Consider that a hypothyroid person may not "adapt" to high altitude the same way that a highly conditioned athlete does.

For these reasons, RP is appropriately skeptical of con men and quacks (his words) selling fancy new devices for health issues that can be treated very inexpensively and safely, where the only purported evidence is the self-interested claims made by the vendors or their own third party affiliates.

Please, unless you are a highly trained athlete who desperately needs some edge to keep up with competitors, do NOT subject yourself to hypoxia. A simple breathing bag, (or CO2 tank as suggested above) is much safer and works just as well.

jyb · Jun 27, 2014

What's the difference between the tent and other CO2 methods (bag breathing, altitude training masks, CO2 tank...)?

Milklove · Jun 28, 2014

@visionofstrenght
Although I agree, that there are a lot of useless devices on the market, like some very weird abs trainers, you don't give our bodies enough credit. It is debatable whether you need such a tent, but our bodies can adapt to hypoxia quite fast.
When I was a very hypothyroid kid I used to spent my holidays in the alps with my parents. After one or two days with decreased energy I suddenly felt incredibly energetic and my muscles never got sore.
Going on vacation in mountains is subjecting yourself to hypoxia. Ray has actually advised going to the mountains with friends for a few days and said that this can have a drastic effect on people's health.

visionofstrength · Jun 28, 2014

The tent claims to blow air that has a reduced oxygen content into an enclosure, creating hypoxia in some degree that the device claims to measure. However, when you come out of the tent you resume breathing oxygen rich air again ... Like going up and down a mountain repeatedly.
Athletes claim that this repeated up and down helps them train to higher levels of performance, but no one has ever studied the effects of stressing your body this way. In general, athletes pay a steep price later in life for stressing their bodies to achieve short term performance advantages.

A much safer way is to increase the CO2 in the air that you breathe, by rebreathing the air that you breathe out, or by adding CO2 to the air. Although the science is a little complicated to explain, basically, the increased partial pressure of CO2 in the air reduces the partial pressure of oxygen, and provides the benefits of high altitude without the stress of hypoxia.

Milk love, i could not agree more about the benefits of vacationing in the mountains. I happen to be in the adirondack mountains right now. But the ability to generate CO2 is crucial to adapting, and hypothyroid people are most vulnerable to the stress of hypoxia.

jyb · Jun 28, 2014

visionofstrength said:
A much safer way is to increase the CO2 in the air that you breathe, by rebreathing the air that you breathe out, or by adding CO2 to the air. Although the science is a little complicated to explain, basically, the increased partial pressure of CO2 in the air reduces the partial pressure of oxygen, and provides the benefits of high altitude without the stress of hypoxia.

But when you re-breath, there's less oxygen (and more CO2) - how's that different from the altitude tent?

pyttsan · Jun 28, 2014

visionofstrength said:
Some of these claims of "gentle adaptation" made by hypoxico and other vendors of extravagant tents may not be true. For example, there are many caveats that have never been tested for. Consider that a hypothyroid person may not "adapt" to high altitude the same way that a highly conditioned athlete does.

For these reasons, RP is appropriately skeptical of con men and quacks (his words) selling fancy new devices for health issues that can be treated very inexpensively and safely, where the only purported evidence is the self-interested claims made by the vendors or their own third party affiliates.

Please, unless you are a highly trained athlete who desperately needs some edge to keep up with competitors, do NOT subject yourself to hypoxia. A simple breathing bag, (or CO2 tank as suggested above) is much safer and works just as well.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure this is what Ray Peat thinks. I asked him before about Hypoxico's products and the only objection he had was that he feared the tent might smell of plastic :lol:

Milklove said:
@visionofstrenght
Although I agree, that there are a lot of useless devices on the market, like some very weird abs trainers, you don't give our bodies enough credit. It is debatable whether you need such a tent, but our bodies can adapt to hypoxia quite fast.
When I was a very hypothyroid kid I used to spent my holidays in the alps with my parents. After one or two days with decreased energy I suddenly felt incredibly energetic and my muscles never got sore.
Going on vacation in mountains is subjecting yourself to hypoxia. Ray has actually advised going to the mountains with friends for a few days and said that this can have a drastic effect on people's health.

Yes, I was at high altitude a while ago and I noticed this as well - more energy and less body ache.
What I enjoyed the most was the improved blood circulation and it was a huge improvement from my usually ice-cold hands and feet. I asked Ray whether high altitude leads to higher cerebral blood flow and what he said was:
"At first there's a big increase, and gradual normalization, but since oxygen consumption is higher at high altitude, I think there will be increased circulation to all tissues. Studies using the doppler method, assuming that artery diameters don't change, failed to see increased flow in some situations."
I then asked if "sleep high, work and play low" might lead to a constant elevation of CBF, to which Ray replied "Should have an effect" (succinct as usual :) )

I'm still not completely sure but I'm leaning more and more towards buying a tent. Better blood flow, less lactate build-up, improvements in thyroid and sex hormones, more red blood cells etc. Damn, must feel like being on a constant runners high (without having to exercise at that

)!

Visionofstrength, you bring up a valid point on the possibility of increased stress.. Hadn't thought about that.
The Sherpas and many other people living at altitude do this type of going up and down throughout their lives, so you might think that possible dangers/harm should be known.

Hugh Johnson · Jun 28, 2014

I have a quick question. If you are sleeping and suddenly the tent experiences a loss of power, will you die?

Milklove · Jun 28, 2014

No, you won't. The tent is using power to simulate a high altitude and thereby an environment with decreased oxygen. If the power dies, the environment will go back to normal.

tara · Jun 28, 2014

Have you tried just sleeping with sheet over your head before investing thousands? This will give you decrease oxygen and increased CO2.

pyttsan · Jun 29, 2014

tara said:
Have you tried just sleeping with sheet over your head before investing thousands? This will give you decrease oxygen and increased CO2.

I appreciate the advice but I'm not so sure that (or bag breathing for that matter) would help very much.

tara · Jun 29, 2014

pyttsan said:
tara said:

Have you tried just sleeping with sheet over your head before investing thousands? This will give you decrease oxygen and increased CO2.

Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice but I'm not so sure that (or bag breathing for that matter) would help very much.

I'm not sure either. But the reasons I think it might be worth a try are:
- It costs no money.
- It costs no time.
- You can try it for a week right now, without having to get extra equipment etc.
- You can get many hours in a row, which is different from bag-breathing that you do for 1-2 minutes only - closer to the tent experience.
- The air you breath will have more CO2 in it than in the tent.
- You can easily adjust it in a couple of seconds to allow in more or less fresh air by leaving a larger or smaller opening closer or further from your face.
- You might learn something interesting about your reactions.
- if it doesn't do you any good, you'll be better informed before deciding whether to buy the tent. (You don't know for sure yet how much that will help either.)

I guess you've already figured out whether your breathing habits at night tend to be mouth or nose and chest or diaghram? Mouth and chest breathing can be improved quite quickly by cheap and relatively convenient means.

I'm not saying don't buy the tent - I don't know enough. Just that there are other cheaper things that might be worth a try first, if you haven't already, and since money is a relevant issue.

If you do go ahead with it, I'll be interested to read your reports.

visionofstrength · Jun 29, 2014

Hi Pytsan,

Perhaps a more direct question for RP would be, do you advise your friends or patients to use an hypoxic tent as a treatment for hypothyroidism? To which I believe his typically direct answer will be, "No."

Please consider that RP has spent the last 40 years or more researching safe, practical strategies for coping with metabolic disorders. He has provided a wealth of such strategies. Why not use the strategies his research points to?

Despite the hype of hypoxic "con men and quacks," there is no evidence that intermittent hypoxia under a tent is the same as, or as safe as living at altitude, especially for someone (like you?) who suffers from hypothyroidism. More importantly, intermittently depriving yourself of oxygen, especially while sleeping under a tent, can go very badly in ways you will not know unless you are attached to sensors while you sleep. For example, one known harm of intermittent hypoxia is that it tends to increase the hematocritic viscosity of the blood, similar to "blood doping," putting extra stress on the heart.

The safe strategy that RP suggests is to live or vacation at a higher altitude, or to increase the amount of carbon dioxide you breathe (which has the same benefits). As RP sums up: "The same simple metabolic therapies, such as thyroid, progesterone, magnesium, and carbon dioxide, are appropriate for a great range of seemingly different diseases. Other biochemicals, such as adenosine and niacinamide, have more specific protective effects, farther downstream in the "cascade" effects of stress." http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/altit ... lity.shtml

tara · Jul 11, 2014

tara said:
Have you tried just sleeping with sheet over your head before investing thousands? This will give you decrease oxygen and increased CO2.

Convinced myself to experiment with this.

Procedure: Every night for the last week or so I put a cotton cloth over my head before going to sleep. I left it open for fresh air at or below my chin, where I was getting less fresh air than usual but not so little as to be uncomfortable. The cloth would fall off before I woke up. I put it back on when I woke up to roll over (or snack) 2-4/night. I continued my usual practice of tape on the mouth to hinder mouth-breathing.

Results: I fell asleep quickly each time. My breathing got noticably heavier from when I put the cloth on till I fell asleep, and I found myself chest-breathing more than usual. In the mornings, my breathing was noticably lighter/shallower than usual. I interpret this as an improvement in breathing and a net gain in CO2 compared with my usual nights' sleep. No negative effects. I can't report any clear effect on my health issues.

It seems to be another extremely cheap, easy, no-time-cost tactic that initially looks promising. I think I'll keep doing it for a while. I might try a night with a belt around my chest again in conjunction with the cloth, to counter the chest-breathing. (I did the belt round chest thing a couple of times only, more than a year ago, and it had a lasting positive effect.)

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Altitude Tent - Worth It?

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