Cacoa Extends Lifespan And Keeps Dopamine High

haidut · Aug 15, 2014

Ray wrote that cacao has bromocriptine, which I have not been able to verify, but there is a study that backs up his claim.

http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges

"...Caffeine increases your metabolic rate, so it's important to take it with food, including enough sugar. Coffee and cocoa are very good magnesium sources. Cocoa contains both bromocriptine and caffeine, bromocriptine seems to be more stimulating to the heart than to the brain."

When rats were given 24mg/kg of cacao powder daily, they lived 11% longer, brain function was the same as that of young rats, and their dopamine levels were also as high as the ones of young rats. The human equivalent dosage of 24mg/kg is about 300mg, which is not high at all and is achievable with a single ounce of chocolate. So, it seems Ray may be on to something with his claim that cacao contains bromocriptine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18179729

"...We examined whether 1-year administration of a cocoa polyphenolic extract (Acticoa powder), orally delivered at the dose of 24 mg/kg per d between 15 and 27 months of age, affects the onset of age-related cognitive deficits, urinary free dopamine levels and lifespan in old Wistar-Unilever rats. Acticoa powder improved cognitive performances in light extinction and water maze paradigms, increased lifespan and preserved high urinary free dopamine levels. These results suggest that Acticoa powder may be beneficial in retarding age-related brain impairments, including cognitive deficits in normal ageing and perhaps neurodegenerative diseases. Further studies are required to elucidate the mechanisms of cocoa polyphenols in neuroprotection and to explore their effects in man."

visionofstrength · Aug 15, 2014

What do you make of this patent (click here to read), which claims, as I understand it, that the combination of bromocriptine in the morning (as a D2 agonist) and lisuride at night (as a 5HT1B receptor subtype agonist) ...

Patent said:
...results in a surprising and unexpected reduction in food consumption and body weight. Such administration also results in a decrease in one or more metabolic indices related to lipid and glucose metabolism, such as serum glucose levels, total body fat, and body weight."

Can you make this feasibly into a weight loss supplement?

[Edit: This patent claims cocoa can administer bromocriptine without its side effects: http://www.google.com/patents/US20020172732]

haidut · Aug 15, 2014

visionofstrength said:
What do you make of this patent (click here to read), which claims, as I understand it, that the combination of bromocriptine in the morning (as a D2 agonist) and lisuride at night (as a 5HT1B receptor subtype agonist) ...

Patent said:

...results in a surprising and unexpected reduction in food consumption and body weight. Such administration also results in a decrease in one or more metabolic indices related to lipid and glucose metabolism, such as serum glucose levels, total body fat, and body weight."

Click to expand...

Can you make this feasibly into a weight loss supplement?

[Edit: This patent claims cocoa can administer bromocriptine without its side effects: http://www.google.com/patents/US20020172732]

I think the same effects can be achieved with a decent dose of caffeine. I posted a study some time ago that caffeine acts like a "functional" agonist on both D1 and D2 "receptors". I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

visionofstrength · Aug 15, 2014

haidut said:
I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Blossom · Aug 15, 2014

This is an interesting thread. In hindsight I remember l lost too much weight during the two year period I took bromocriptine for a prolactinoma. I ended up underweight in fact. I was so weak and emaciated I couldn't get in the ocean without my husband holding me up! Life is so much better these days. My weight is back and my prolactin is even lower than it was while taking a high dose of prescription bromocriptine. I do eat chocolate most days but didn't realize I was getting some bromocriptine from eating it! Thanks for the information.

haidut · Aug 15, 2014

visionofstrength said:
haidut said:

I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Click to expand...

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Here are some things to consider:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/925686
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Pharmacology

Since it is known to cause heart damage in prolonged use it most likely has serotonin agonist properties.

visionofstrength · Aug 15, 2014

haidut said:
visionofstrength said:

haidut said:

I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Click to expand...

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Click to expand...

Here are some things to consider:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/925686
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Pharmacology

Since it is known to cause heart damage in prolonged use it most likely has serotonin agonist properties.

I see your point, yes. Does it make sense that we should look at which ergoloids activate the 5-HT2B receptor most strongly? IOW...

Strong:
pergolide and carbergoline (both of which have the same efficacy as 5-HT itself in activating the 2B receptor)

Weak:
lisuride, LSD, bromocriptine and nicergoline have the lowest risk of cardiac fibrosis, as they are far weaker than 5-HT itself at the 5-HT2B receptor.

And then there's hydergine (a similar receptor binding profile to LSD, but is a very weak (as in sub-hallucinogenic) partial agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, with a tad more dopaminergic impact). It is also extremely potent, with doses around 250ug and it acts as a functional antagonist at the 5-HT2B receptor, so there is no risk of cardiac fibrosis.

For more, I see there is a post here

dukez07 · Aug 15, 2014

I've taken cacao for years. Mostly the nibs, but recently I have buying the powder (as it goes more easily into milk). I have to say though, that the quality in powdered cacao varies greatly. If you go onto David Wolfe's website, the cacao they get is supposed to be the best you can get (but shipping to the Uk is not financially viable).

Anyway, I guess I've had more success with the nibs than the powder (although come across one or two good powdered ones). I've even purchased the beans, and you can just crunch straight into them. I know they advise not to do that, in case of mold or whatever, but the outer shell is also edible in my experience.

Another thing I have to add though, is about the subjective effects. For the first year, I experienced very profound euphoria from cacao. It made me feel a million bucks. Definitely cognitively enhancing, gave me loads of energy, appetite suppressive too (interestingly) and my mood was fantastic. For a whole year I didn't go near pharmaceutical drugs to try and manage my depressive symptons. But tolerance does set in. The second year was like a watered down version of the first year (still great), and from the third year onwards (been taking it for about 6 years) I now notice nothing at all from it (I have tried a lot of different brands) - even if I down many tablespoons at a time.

But cacao, to me, is still real tasty and I guess it is mildly stimulating (sort of). Coffee is far more stimulating, for me (with mild euphoria, too). Coffee is pretty amazing. Coffee warms me up significantly. I have never grown tolerant to coffee.

So yeah, I still take cacao for the taste and it is very mildy pleasurable (although, nothing like the old days), even if the nootropic effects have all but dissapeared. And it still has good magnesium, antioxidants, etc.

An interesting find about the bromocriptine, but I doubt it is in very significant amounts (if at all noticable). It's a bit like mucuna, which contains very, very tiny trace amounts of hallucinogenic tryptamines. But not enough to cause any effects that are noticable. If cacao had significant amounts of bromocriptine, it would be known as a potent prolactin suppressor but also, bromocriptine is a drug which is well known for its issues with heart valve damage (as are a lot of D2 agonists), due to its 5HT2B agonism.

visionofstrength · Aug 15, 2014

dukez07 said:
I've taken cacao for years. Mostly the nibs, but recently I have buying the powder (as it goes more easily into milk). I have to say though, that the quality in powdered cacao varies greatly.

Do you use the non-alkalized cacao, sometimes called Lavado? Primitive tribes drink lots of non-alkalized cacao, themselves, and export the alkalized cacao. At least one study has found a difference between non-alkalized and alkalized:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18710243

haidut · Aug 15, 2014

visionofstrength said:
haidut said:

visionofstrength said:

haidut said:

I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Click to expand...

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Click to expand...

Here are some things to consider:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/925686
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Pharmacology

Since it is known to cause heart damage in prolonged use it most likely has serotonin agonist properties.

Click to expand...

I see your point, yes. Does it make sense that we should look at which ergoloids activate the 5-HT2B receptor most strongly? IOW...

Strong:
pergolide and carbergoline (both of which have the same efficacy as 5-HT itself in activating the 2B receptor)

Weak:
lisuride, LSD, bromocriptine and nicergoline have the lowest risk of cardiac fibrosis, as they are far weaker than 5-HT itself at the 5-HT2B receptor.

And then there's hydergine (a similar receptor binding profile to LSD, but is a very weak (as in sub-hallucinogenic) partial agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, with a tad more dopaminergic impact). It is also extremely potent, with doses around 250ug and it acts as a functional antagonist at the 5-HT2B receptor, so there is no risk of cardiac fibrosis.

For more, I see there is a post here

Yes, I think there should be some analysis as to which ergoloid has the most beneficial 5-HT profile. I think the consensus is that currently this is lisuride, since it was developed specifically to avoid the hallucinogenic and heart-damaging effects of LSD and bromo. If you do a search for lisuride you will see some posts I made about it being protective for both liver and heart.
I think there is work on developing successors to lisuride, but most of those chemicals are experimental and safety for humans is not known. You can search PubMed for "liruside analogs".

haidut · Aug 15, 2014

haidut said:
haidut said:

visionofstrength said:

haidut said:

visionofstrength said:

haidut said:

I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Click to expand...

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Click to expand...

Here are some things to consider:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/925686
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Pharmacology

Since it is known to cause heart damage in prolonged use it most likely has serotonin agonist properties.

Click to expand...

I see your point, yes. Does it make sense that we should look at which ergoloids activate the 5-HT2B receptor most strongly? IOW...

Strong:
pergolide and carbergoline (both of which have the same efficacy as 5-HT itself in activating the 2B receptor)

Weak:
lisuride, LSD, bromocriptine and nicergoline have the lowest risk of cardiac fibrosis, as they are far weaker than 5-HT itself at the 5-HT2B receptor.

And then there's hydergine (a similar receptor binding profile to LSD, but is a very weak (as in sub-hallucinogenic) partial agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, with a tad more dopaminergic impact). It is also extremely potent, with doses around 250ug and it acts as a functional antagonist at the 5-HT2B receptor, so there is no risk of cardiac fibrosis.

For more, I see there is a post here

Click to expand...

Yes, I think there should be some analysis as to which ergoloid has the least harmful 5-HT profile. I think the consensus is that currently this is lisuride, since it was developed specifically to avoid the hallucinogenic and heart-damaging effects of LSD and bromo. If you do a forum search for lisuride you will see some posts I made about it being protective for both liver and heart. You can also do a search in PubMed for "lisuride heart" or "lisuride liver".
I think there is work on developing successors to lisuride, but most of those chemicals are experimental and safety for humans is not known. You can search PubMed for "lisuride analogs".

Click to expand...

visionofstrength · Aug 16, 2014

haidut, like you, I cannot find any reference to bromocriptine being present somehow in cacao. The closest I can find is that bromocriptine comes from ergot that interacts with indole alkaloids, while cacao is a purine alkaloid. So, not very close!

I wonder if the person quoting Peat on peatarian.com misunderstood him about this?

jaguar43 · Aug 16, 2014

Anyone else know of any sources of cacao besides david wolf ? Great thread, very interesting.

visionofstrength · Aug 16, 2014

I use a non-alkalized cacao from Ghana. It's pricey, but it's amazing. PM me if you want the link?

andvanwyk · Aug 26, 2014

Hey guys.

I lol'ed quite a lot when I saw this thread. I'm the one that originally asked Ray that question. I did not make a typo about the bromocriptine but I'm pretty damn sure that what Ray meant to say was "theobromine". Seems close enough right? Chocolate contains a lot of theobromine.

See over here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobromine. Quote: "Theobromine stimulates the heart to a greater degree." That would be in line with Ray's original quote.

visionofstrength · Aug 30, 2014

Well, if Ray meant to type theobromine (and yes, that would make sense), I still wound up learning about ergoloids and alkaloids, so thanks, Ray!

Philomath · Nov 4, 2014

Blossom said:
This is an interesting thread. In hindsight I remember l lost too much weight during the two year period I took bromocriptine for a prolactinoma. I ended up underweight in fact. I was so weak and emaciated I couldn't get in the ocean without my husband holding me up! Life is so much better these days. My weight is back and my prolactin is even lower than it was while taking a high dose of prescription bromocriptine. I do eat chocolate most days but didn't realize I was getting some bromocriptine from eating it! Thanks for the information.

I know there are many more factors involved in health and longevity, but I always enjoy looking at the lifestyles of supercentarians.
You may find it interesting that Jeanne Louise Calment lived to 121 and ate nearly two pounds of chocolate a week! She lived in France so I'm assuming her chocolate options were infinitely better than ours!

paper_clips43 · Nov 14, 2014

All of the bulk Cacao sold here is Non-ALkalized.

http://gonegreenstore.com/category/bulk-cacao

Also the Pacari Chocolate bars are made with non-alkalized cacao as well.

thomasanderson2 · Dec 27, 2015

visionofstrength said:
haidut said:

visionofstrength said:

haidut said:

I would avoid bromocriptine since all partial serotonin agonists like it (including LSD and cabergoline) can cause serious heart damage. Caffeine is safer and is well known to suppress appetite in doses of 600mg+ a day.

Click to expand...

Is bromocriptine a partial serotonin agonist? I thought it was a D2 agonist, similar to caffeine? And lisuride is the partial serotonin agonist? No?

Click to expand...

Here are some things to consider:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/925686
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromocriptine#Pharmacology

Since it is known to cause heart damage in prolonged use it most likely has serotonin agonist properties.

Click to expand...

I see your point, yes. Does it make sense that we should look at which ergoloids activate the 5-HT2B receptor most strongly? IOW...

Strong:
pergolide and carbergoline (both of which have the same efficacy as 5-HT itself in activating the 2B receptor)

Weak:
lisuride, LSD, bromocriptine and nicergoline have the lowest risk of cardiac fibrosis, as they are far weaker than 5-HT itself at the 5-HT2B receptor.

And then there's hydergine (a similar receptor binding profile to LSD, but is a very weak (as in sub-hallucinogenic) partial agonist at the 5-HT2A receptor, with a tad more dopaminergic impact). It is also extremely potent, with doses around 250ug and it acts as a functional antagonist at the 5-HT2B receptor, so there is no risk of cardiac fibrosis.

For more, I see there is a post here

Hi visionofstrength:
Do you have a source for the information about Hydergine being a 5-HT2B antagonist?
There is a thread over at Longecity on this
( http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/66 ... /?p=755885 )
- and personally, I'm very interested in resuming my use of Hydergine - and would do so if not for the fibrosis concern.

Thanks for any further source you can share on this.

Parsifal · Dec 27, 2015

I've tried to get a good chocolate and the effects where amazing on my anhedonia (I felt euphoric and wanted to eat a lot of it) and motivation but the downside was not good, my digestion was really bad for 2 or 3 days. Cacao is also very high in resveratrol and polyphenols.

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