Coconut Oil + Vinegar Or OJ = Potent Antibiotic

haidut

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Ray has written on the merits of coconut oil in terms of bacterial inhibition. He also recommends coconut oi and vinegar as a carrier for carrot to reach the intestine. However, I don't think Ray has written on the combination of the oil and vinegar as a natural alternative to antibiotics. This study claims that that the fatty acids in coconut oil and some organic acids (i.e. citric, malic, acetic) have powerful synergistic effect against bacteria commonly found in the human digestive tract.
The most powerful combination was caprylic acid and malic acid (apple juice), but virtually all combinations had bactericidal effects. It looks like there may be some scientific rationale behind the common naturopath prescription of olive oil and lemon juice for intestinal cleansing, even though it is coconut oil that has better fatty acid profile for that purpose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3811494/

"...The aim of this study was to examine the synergistic bactericidal effects of medium-chain fatty acids (MCFAs; caprylic, capric, and lauric acid) and organic acids (OAs; acetic, lactic, malic, and citric acid) against Escherichia coli O157:H7 and to identify their underlying mechanism(s) of action.Combined treatment resulted in an additional log-unit reduction compared with the sum of the reductions obtained after individual treatment. For example, caprylic acid (1.0 mM, or 0.016%) and citric acid (1.0 mM, or 0.012%) alone showed negligible bactericidal effects (0.30- and 0.06-log-unit reductions, respectively); however, a marked synergistic effect (>7.15-log-unit reduction) was observed when the two were combined. Although flow cytometry and microscopic analyses of bacteria treated with individual MCFAs and OAs showed evidence of membrane disruption, the bacteria were still able to form colonies; thus, the cell damage was recoverable. In contrast, cells exposed to combined treatments showed clear membrane disintegration and/or cell death (irreversible damage)."


So, coconut oil and orange juice (or vinegar) may be a viable alternative to antibiotics for treating SIBO.
 
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haidut said:
Ray has written on the merits of coconut oil in terms of bacterial inhibition. He also recommends coconut oi and vinegar as a carrier for carrot to reach the intestine. However, I don't think Ray has written on the combination of the oil and vinegar as a natural alternative to antibiotics. This study claims that that the fatty acids in coconut oil and some organic acids (i.e. citric, malic, acetic) have powerful synergistic effect against bacteria commonly found in the human digestive tract.
The most powerful combination was caprylic acid and malic acid (apple juice), but virtually all combinations had bactericidal effects. It looks like there may be some scientific rationale behind the common naturopath prescription of olive oil and lemon juice for intestinal cleansing, even though it is coconut oil that has better fatty acid profile for that purpose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3811494/

"...The aim of this study was to examine the synergistic bactericidal effects of medium-chain fatty acids (MCFAs; caprylic, capric, and lauric acid) and organic acids (OAs; acetic, lactic, malic, and citric acid) against Escherichia coli O157:H7 and to identify their underlying mechanism(s) of action.Combined treatment resulted in an additional log-unit reduction compared with the sum of the reductions obtained after individual treatment. For example, caprylic acid (1.0 mM, or 0.016%) and citric acid (1.0 mM, or 0.012%) alone showed negligible bactericidal effects (0.30- and 0.06-log-unit reductions, respectively); however, a marked synergistic effect (>7.15-log-unit reduction) was observed when the two were combined. Although flow cytometry and microscopic analyses of bacteria treated with individual MCFAs and OAs showed evidence of membrane disruption, the bacteria were still able to form colonies; thus, the cell damage was recoverable. In contrast, cells exposed to combined treatments showed clear membrane disintegration and/or cell death (irreversible damage)."


So, coconut oil and orange juice (or vinegar) may be a viable alternative to antibiotics for treating SIBO.

That's interesting, I wonder if the craze for Kefir and the likes comes from some interplay of lactic acid and butyric acid.
 
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Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
Ray has written on the merits of coconut oil in terms of bacterial inhibition. He also recommends coconut oi and vinegar as a carrier for carrot to reach the intestine. However, I don't think Ray has written on the combination of the oil and vinegar as a natural alternative to antibiotics. This study claims that that the fatty acids in coconut oil and some organic acids (i.e. citric, malic, acetic) have powerful synergistic effect against bacteria commonly found in the human digestive tract.
The most powerful combination was caprylic acid and malic acid (apple juice), but virtually all combinations had bactericidal effects. It looks like there may be some scientific rationale behind the common naturopath prescription of olive oil and lemon juice for intestinal cleansing, even though it is coconut oil that has better fatty acid profile for that purpose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3811494/

"...The aim of this study was to examine the synergistic bactericidal effects of medium-chain fatty acids (MCFAs; caprylic, capric, and lauric acid) and organic acids (OAs; acetic, lactic, malic, and citric acid) against Escherichia coli O157:H7 and to identify their underlying mechanism(s) of action.Combined treatment resulted in an additional log-unit reduction compared with the sum of the reductions obtained after individual treatment. For example, caprylic acid (1.0 mM, or 0.016%) and citric acid (1.0 mM, or 0.012%) alone showed negligible bactericidal effects (0.30- and 0.06-log-unit reductions, respectively); however, a marked synergistic effect (>7.15-log-unit reduction) was observed when the two were combined. Although flow cytometry and microscopic analyses of bacteria treated with individual MCFAs and OAs showed evidence of membrane disruption, the bacteria were still able to form colonies; thus, the cell damage was recoverable. In contrast, cells exposed to combined treatments showed clear membrane disintegration and/or cell death (irreversible damage)."


So, coconut oil and orange juice (or vinegar) may be a viable alternative to antibiotics for treating SIBO.

That's interesting, I wonder if the craze for Kefir and the likes comes from some interplay of lactic acid and butyric acid.

Or any yogurt for that matter right? All the non-strained, full fat yogurts should have a decent amount of both lactic acid and butyric acid (butter). So, the beneficial GI effects reported by many yogurt lovers could be due to a reduction rather than an increase in GI bacterial count due to the combo. Also, I saw a study that analyzed the presence of probiotic bacteria in a number of commercially sold yogurts and found that almost all of them had very low counts. The study reported this as a negative finding due to the fact that people would not be getting the "valuable" probiotics they are paying for, but I wonder if the bacteria died out due to the butyrate and lactic acid combo...
 
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There's also something with this resistant starch that makes butyrate it seems; all substances somehow tied to bacteria.
 

keith

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The most powerful combination was caprylic acid and malic acid (apple juice), but virtually all combinations had bactericidal effects.

Doesn't it say "The combination of CLA plus CTA showed the most marked bactericidal effect." (Caprylic + citric acid)? If I'm reading correctly caprylic + malic was second.

Any idea how these numbers might translate into amounts for human consumption? I'm guessing you can't really translate data from a petri dish to a human, but I know you are a lot better at reading and interpreting study results than I am, so figured I would ask.
 
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haidut

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Doesn't it say "The combination of CLA plus CTA showed the most marked bactericidal effect." (Caprylic + citric acid)? If I'm reading correctly caprylic + malic was second.

Any idea how these numbers might translate into amounts for human consumption? I'm guessing you can't really translate data from a petri dish to a human, but I know you are a lot better at reading and interpreting study results than I am, so figured I would ask.

Yes, that is correct. I guess I misread it. To achieve 1mM concentrations, usually doses of 5g - 6g of the fatty acid in question is needed. Similar for citric acid, except that the range may be larger due to the less reliable bioavailability of water soluble chemicals like citric acid.
 

keith

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Interesting; according to this study Quantitative Assessment of Citric Acid in Lemon Juice, Lime Juice, and Commercially-Available Fruit Juice Products, looks like commercial orange juice (Tropicana Pue Premium) has about 16.9 grams of citric acid per liter (33.814 oz), so that is about 4 grams per 8oz cup. I have MCT oil that is supposedly 99.8% caprylic and capric, presumably at a ratio of 40% caprylic, 60% capric, so that should have about 5.5 grams caprylic and 8.3 grams capric per tablespoon. So a tablespoon (possibly less, since both MCT oils should have antibiotic effects) of that in 16 oz of commercial orabge juice could, theoretically work as well as an antibiotic, at least for some pathogens, maybe. Not sure what impact the extra water in the juice and extra capric acid may have. I'll have to experiment; very unscientifically, of course, since I have no way to truly measure any bacterial die off that would occur from drinking this.
 

lvysaur

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Is it just me or are Korean papers a lot more straightforward to read than western ones
 

Fractality

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what is your experience with this? Do you take all 3 at once?

Not yet, today I took a tablespoon of AC in MCT oil and had several very loose bowel movements which felt cleansing. I made that post because sometime in the future I would like to try adding ACV as a synergistic ingredient.
 

Fractality

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I've been doing this intermittently (usually with ACV as a malic acid source). I also typically take a dose of methylated sat fats around the same time. It definitely produces what I'm guessing to be "dieoff" symptoms, and I've become tolerant to the amount of bowel movements it causes. The "dieoff" symptoms can be rough, but I feel like I come out better on the other side. If it is indeed cleansing my gut then I'm all for it, knowing what I know from RP. Any other people doing this?
 

cs3000

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Ray has written on the merits of coconut oil in terms of bacterial inhibition. He also recommends coconut oi and vinegar as a carrier for carrot to reach the intestine. However, I don't think Ray has written on the combination of the oil and vinegar as a natural alternative to antibiotics. This study claims that that the fatty acids in coconut oil and some organic acids (i.e. citric, malic, acetic) have powerful synergistic effect against bacteria commonly found in the human digestive tract.
The most powerful combination was caprylic acid and malic acid (apple juice), but virtually all combinations had bactericidal effects. It looks like there may be some scientific rationale behind the common naturopath prescription of olive oil and lemon juice for intestinal cleansing, even though it is coconut oil that has better fatty acid profile for that purpose.

Marked Synergistic Bactericidal Effects and Mode of Action of Medium-Chain Fatty Acids in Combination with Organic Acids against Escherichia coli O157:H7

"...The aim of this study was to examine the synergistic bactericidal effects of medium-chain fatty acids (MCFAs; caprylic, capric, and lauric acid) and organic acids (OAs; acetic, lactic, malic, and citric acid) against Escherichia coli O157:H7 and to identify their underlying mechanism(s) of action.Combined treatment resulted in an additional log-unit reduction compared with the sum of the reductions obtained after individual treatment. For example, caprylic acid (1.0 mM, or 0.016%) and citric acid (1.0 mM, or 0.012%) alone showed negligible bactericidal effects (0.30- and 0.06-log-unit reductions, respectively); however, a marked synergistic effect (>7.15-log-unit reduction) was observed when the two were combined. Although flow cytometry and microscopic analyses of bacteria treated with individual MCFAs and OAs showed evidence of membrane disruption, the bacteria were still able to form colonies; thus, the cell damage was recoverable. In contrast, cells exposed to combined treatments showed clear membrane disintegration and/or cell death (irreversible damage)."


So, coconut oil and orange juice (or vinegar) may be a viable alternative to antibiotics for treating SIBO.
@haidut nice ,
something missed back then:

not sure why they didn't mention it in the summary section but they found capric acid is more powerful than caprylic acid against the e coli,
and it was so powerful it didn't even need to be combined with another acid to get practically the same bacteria killing effect as caprylic + malic or citric

left side 1.0 mM of individual CRA (capric acid) hit the 7 log reduction for the bacteria
(which is why all of the combination options for capric acid showed this too)
also 1.5 mM of caprylic had max effect without the combo vs 1 mM + 1mM as the acid combos but 1mM didn't work. so key to get dose right


9991048030002.jpg


"CRA showed the highest level of activity, followed by CLA and LRA.
Treatment with CRA at 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, and 1.5 mM resulted in 2.75-, 5.68-, 7.29-, and 7.45-log-unit reductions, respectively. Treatment with CLA at a concentration of <1.0 mM did not have any significant effect on the bacterial population (P > 0.05). However, treatment with 1.5 mM CLA resulted in a 7.32-log-unit reduction.



+ capric acid is even effective at a way lower dose of 0.15mM if you combine it with 0.15mM of citric too (also lower dose).
or significantly impactful at 0.5mM alone with the -5.68 log reduction.

1991048030001.jpg


The bactericidal effects of CLA or LRA in combination with each of the four OAs (0.125 mM plus 0.125 mM) resulted in a negligible reduction in the bacterial population; indeed, the reductions were so small that it was not possible to ascertain whether there were any synergistic effects. However, when bacteria were exposed to CRA plus OAs (0.125 mM CRA plus 0.125 mM each OA), we observed a 2.89-log-unit reduction for CRA plus MA, and a 6.04-log-unit reduction for CRA plus CTA."


idk how to convert these in vitro cell doses to human doses but going by your post

maybe ~6 grams capric acid alone for the full bacteria killing effect at 1 mM
or ~3g cypric acid for most of the effect at 0.5mM which is found in 4 tablespoons of coconut oil at 5% capric acid. (probably would need dosing at the same time to reach inhibitory concentration so MCT oil might be more practical if tolerated)

if combining then takes just ~0.75 grams cypric acid found in 1 tablespoon coconut oil for 0.125mM, boosted with ~1g citric acid to get most of the effectiveness.
(which is found in 100ml of orange juice, but not sure on the timing to make them hit the small intestine together)

* the catch is this is for effects against e coli, but it varies against other bacteria. so these individual acids do not give a broad anti-bacteria effect using the same dose.
e.g in this one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC163106/pdf/400302.pdf lauric acid was the effective acid against h.pylori strains but capric or caprylic acid wasn't effective at 1-5 mM.

so i guess using a mix of the 3 is the best option. hard to tell what the timing would need to be to boost with OJ, for the small intestine
(coconut oil is 50% lauric acid so it might be especially effective against H pylori strains. maybe ~15g so 30g of coconut oil in same dose. which is close to a case report i read for clearing a h pylori infection in the stomach)



capric acid also reduces inflammatory markers IL-6 & TNF-a. and aldehydes , in small intestine cells at 1 mM Function of capric acid in cyclophosphamide-induced intestinal inflammation, oxidative stress, and barrier function in pigs - Scientific Reports


Question is how far do these acids make it through the small intestine for bacteria clearance there?
is capric / caprylic / lauric acid quickly absorbed at the top? how can we slow it down if so?

& what about exposure time in vivo vs in vitro, is bacteria exposed to it for long enough to kill when passing through the intestine without staying in 1 place?

this shows https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e0d9/60f407ae10086f3afa39dae55eab51b11e86.pdf lauric acid works in 10 minutes at 2.5mM to kill h. pylori. but in 1 minute at 5mM it only slowed growth without reducing the population.
 
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cs3000

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Lauric acid is one of the main anti-microbial compounds found in human breast milk


theres another form called monolaurin that's about 30x more potent than lauric acid against some bacteria like staph
"The objective of this study was to investigate the in vitro activities of virgin coconut oil, lauric acid and monolaurin in combination with lactic acid against two strains of Staphylococcus aureus, ATCC 25923... Minimum bactericidal concentrations (MBC) of lauric acid, monolaurin and lactic acid were 3.2 mg/ml, 0.1 mg/ml and 0.4% (v/v), respectively. "

and can be powered up with an extra acid too


against h pylori it might be 2x more potent, or similar potency.
but in high protein liquid diet the lauric acid didn't work as well, where the monolaurin kept effectiveness

has effectiveness against strep, staph, enterobacter and h pylori Novel antibacterial activity of monolaurin compared with conventional antibiotics against organisms from skin infections: an in vitro study - PubMed. but not for killing ecoli (tho can slow growth), or salmonela. so capric acid for those

mice study ~1.5g (i think) protected against induced bacteria as well as an antibiotic.


this applies to the stomach where it would sit for a while. applies somewhat to the small intestine


coconut oil has mild anti-viral activity in the body by in vivo studies, nothing big from the ones i looked at but still somewhat. its mostly for local effects i think probably doesnt stay around long. some raise CD4 T cell counts around 45g daily but others don't show this.

but it does have significant anti-inflammatory activity at 3-4 tablespoons daily. in a COVID study CRP levels dropped drastically from ~7 to ~2, normalized within 14 days in the coconut oil group, and by 28 days the control group still had elevated levels. significant at 0.6g / kg bodyweight human and 1.2g/kg human

drinking 80%+ coconut cream is another way to get it
 
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Soren

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Lauric acid is one of the main anti-microbial compounds found in human breast milk


theres another form called monolaurin that's about 30x more potent than lauric acid against some bacteria like staph
"The objective of this study was to investigate the in vitro activities of virgin coconut oil, lauric acid and monolaurin in combination with lactic acid against two strains of Staphylococcus aureus, ATCC 25923... Minimum bactericidal concentrations (MBC) of lauric acid, monolaurin and lactic acid were 3.2 mg/ml, 0.1 mg/ml and 0.4% (v/v), respectively. "

and can be powered up with an extra acid too


against h pylori it might be 2x more potent, or similar potency.
but in high protein liquid diet the lauric acid didn't work as well, where the monolaurin kept effectiveness

has effectiveness against strep, staph, enterobacter and h pylori Novel antibacterial activity of monolaurin compared with conventional antibiotics against organisms from skin infections: an in vitro study - PubMed. but not for killing ecoli (tho can slow growth), or salmonela. so capric acid for those

mice study ~1.5g (i think) protected against induced bacteria as well as an antibiotic.


this applies to the stomach where it would sit for a while. maybe applies somewhat to the small intestine


coconut oil has mild anti-viral activity in the body by in vivo studies, nothing big from the ones i looked at but still somewhat. its mostly for local effects i think probably doesnt stay around long. some raise CD4 T cell counts around 45g daily but others don't show this.

but it does have significant anti-inflammatory activity at 3-4 tablespoons daily. in a COVID study CRP levels dropped drastically from ~7 to ~2, normalized within 14 days in the coconut oil group, and by 28 days the control group still had elevated levels. significant at 0.6g / kg human and 1.2ml/g human

drinking 80%+ coconut cream is another way to get it

Fascinating thanks for sharing this. I think I might start trying the coconut oil and apple cider vinegar combination as an antibacterial tonic.
 

Sherbert

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So, coconut oil and orange juice (or vinegar) may be a viable alternative to antibiotics for treating SIBO.
would explain the appeal of creamsicles and orange 🍊 sherbet
 

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