The Diverse Effects Of Lactate Are Finally Being Recognized

haidut · Aug 27, 2014

Ray has written a lot on the toxicity of lactate and how it is not just a harmless metabolite. However, modern medicine treats lactate not just as harmless but even as beneficial (for the brain, of all tissues). This latest study is starting to expose the many faces of lactate, even though the attitude is still that lactate is "good" for us by being an NMDA "agonist" and increasing intracellular calcium (essentially promoting calcification). I am hoping that some medical authority would wisen up to the fact that if NMDA "antagonists" (like magnesium and taurine) are widely recognized as good for the brain and metabolism then lactate being a strong NMDA "agonist" and promoting cellular calcification cannot be that good for us.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/33/12228.short

"...l-lactate is a product of aerobic glycolysis that can be used by neurons as an energy substrate. Here we report that in neurons l-lactate stimulates the expression of synaptic plasticity-related genes such as Arc, c-Fos, and Zif268 through a mechanism involving NMDA receptor activity and its downstream signaling cascade Erk1/2. l-lactate potentiates NMDA receptor-mediated currents and the ensuing increase in intracellular calcium. In parallel to this, l-lactate increases intracellular levels of NADH, thereby modulating the redox state of neurons. NADH mimics all of the effects of l-lactate on NMDA signaling, pointing to NADH increase as a primary mediator of l-lactate effects."

As the quote above shows, lactate increases NADH and that would decrease the NAD/NADH ratio and put the body in a more reduced state. Decreased NAD/NADH ratio is a hallmark of aging and cancer. Niacinamide / nicotinamide increases the NAD/NADH ratio and would probably oppose some of lactate's effects on the brain.

DdR · Sep 4, 2014

Hey haidut,

What can one do if they want to work out to gain/keep muscle? I obviously want to avoid lactic acid, but I feel like I have to push my muscles to failure in order to engender an anabolic response.

haidut · Sep 4, 2014

DdR said:
Hey haidut,

What can one do if they want to work out to gain/keep muscle? I obviously want to avoid lactic acid, but I feel like I have to push my muscles to failure in order to engender an anabolic response.

There are a number of studies showing high protein diet generating muscle growth even in the absence of weight lifting. Thiamine (vitamin B1) also lowers lactate production.

DdR · Sep 4, 2014

haidut said:
There are a number of studies showing high protein diet generating muscle growth even in the absence of weight lifting. Thiamine (vitamin B1) also lowers lactate production.

So you're saying you don't lift weights at all?

I'm really starting to rethink my weight-lifting regimen, which consists of one-set-to-failure. The amount of lactic acid I produce must be a lot. I only do it though max. 2x per week.

The older I get, the more I don't understand about health.

haidut · Sep 4, 2014

DdR said:
haidut said:

There are a number of studies showing high protein diet generating muscle growth even in the absence of weight lifting. Thiamine (vitamin B1) also lowers lactate production.

Click to expand...

So you're saying you don't lift weights at all?

I'm really starting to rethink my weight-lifting regimen, which consists of one-set-to-failure. The amount of lactic acid I produce must be a lot. I only do it though max. 2x per week.

The older I get, the more I don't understand about health.

LOL, I am confused too. Just remember that Ray said ideally things should never makes sense until they make the right sense. And usually suddenly at that.
Sometimes I do some pushups and also carry heavy kids up a hill for a few miles:) The latter is a great work out for my core. I do the kid-carrying 2-3 times a week and pushups maybe twice a week. One set of pushups, no more.
I don't really do much formal exercise, but I find that when I drink 30g+ of protein in one sitting my muscles get huge, even if I don't do anything that day or the previous few days. Decent dose of protein will not only trigger muscle synthesis but will also lower serotonin and that will boost testosterone and dopamine (as Ray wrote). The combination of these factors might be the reason for my observations.
Btw, I tried with some of my friends and now they are as confused as you (and me) are:) If you want to look like one of those cut bodybuilders you will probably have to lift weights, but something as simple as getting extra protein and doing one set of pushups every 2-3 days can make you look like you've been living in the gym for a few years.
IMO, most people who go to the gym overtrain. I have seen their saliva cortisol tests and they are off the charts. Every single one of them. There was a bodybuilder back in the 1960s who spent 5min in the gym doing only one set of bench, squat, and deadlift (so 3 sets total over 5min). The rest of his regimen was food (up to 3 dozens of eggs a day) and rest. The guy made Arnold look like a plastic clown. I am blanking on his name but will post when I remember.
Bottom line, gyms these days are a cult and not a healthy place to be. Eat healthy, do a little stimulating exercise and you will look and feel better than 90% of those poor souls. Don't even get me started on how much money they waste too...

superhuman · Sep 4, 2014

remember those bodybuilders around 1960 claiming only 5 min in the gym and all that where juiced out of their minds like Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones etc etc

But yeah alot of people make great progress with those type of programs as well when they are natural.
But the best looking natural lifters out there now are doing more frequent lifting like a muscle group 2 times a week

haidut · Sep 4, 2014

superhuman said:
remember those bodybuilders around 1960 claiming only 5 min in the gym and all that where juiced out of their minds like Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones etc etc

But yeah alot of people make great progress with those type of programs as well when they are natural.
But the best looking natural lifters out there now are doing more frequent lifting like a muscle group 2 times a week

The guy I was talking about was not a bodybuilder per se. He never went through a cutting phase and was just eating and lifting very heavy for very short period of time. He looked like a V-shaped version of the "Incredible Hulk". Just muscle-bound and wise. His inspiration was this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Giro ... philosophy

"...Gironda is often quoted as saying that bodybuilding is 85% nutrition. He was also an early proponent of low carb dieting, and recommended the use of numerous supplements, including desiccated liver tablets, kelp, digestive enzymes and glandulars such as adrenal and orchic. In certain circumstances Gironda would recommend up to 3 dozen fertile hen-eggs a day, along with raw (unhomogenized, unpasteurized) cream or milk. Large amounts of fertile eggs, he said, is equal to the anabolic steroid Dianabol in effectiveness. However, he was vehemently against the use of steroids for physique development, claiming that it contributed to a grotesque appearance."

Do the above techniques remind you of anyone? :)
Anyways, if nutrition is as important as astrophysics (like Peat said and the guy above agrees with), food is a drug (like Peat said), and certain foods acts like hormones (again like Peat said) then maybe it is not very surprising that 3 dozens of eggs may have the same effect as Dianabol.
The point I am trying to make is not that everyone should guzzle 3 dozens of eggs or never go to the gym. I am trying to say that by listening to your body, experimenting (first, do no harm) and eating right you will likely look better, feel better, and live longer than 99% of the people around you. And if that involves eating 3 dozens of eggs daily then so be it. You will also be ridiculed mercilessly along the way, but if you get what you want it should not bother you much. Like Peat said in this interview:

http://www.visionandacceptance.com/rayp ... revisited/

"Q: Do you have any tricks, techniques or tips for minimizing stress in dealing with the public? A: I don’t think so. Perceiving the existence of the culture is necessarily stressful, and any opportunity to modify it tends to reduce the stress.
Keep experimenting and listen to your body!

TCapp04 · Mar 21, 2016

The High Intensity Training philosophy is what I use. It's one set to failure for each muscle or muscle group, but it produces great increases in strength. Guys like Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates used this method to get huge. Mike Mentzer did steroids and died in his early 50s, and so did his brother Ray. He cited Hans Selye in most of his books, which is really cool because most people have no clue who Hans Selye is.

I feel way better doing HIT than I ever did, using the traditional bodybuilding approach of 1-2 workouts a day, 5-6 days a week, and I'm a hell of a lot stronger now.

Evandrojr · Jun 2, 2016

TCapp04 said:
The High Intensity Training philosophy is what I use. It's one set to failure for each muscle or muscle group, but it produces great increases in strength. Guys like Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates used this method to get huge. Mike Mentzer did steroids and died in his early 50s, and so did his brother Ray. He cited Hans Selye in most of his books, which is really cool because most people have no clue who Hans Selye is.

I feel way better doing HIT than I ever did, using the traditional bodybuilding approach of 1-2 workouts a day, 5-6 days a week, and I'm a hell of a lot stronger now.

Hi @TCapp04 and @haidut , you guys might want to look into the work of Doug McGuff in Body by Science. After many years of professional water polo and then many more years of Crossfit which, nedless to say, RUINED my health, I am now following his protocol. Long story short: it's a once a week workout, very slow movements, heavy but controlled and safe, no explosion. This prevents the formation of Lactic Acid, so the strength and size gains come from CNS (Central Nervous System) activation instead of Lactic acid accumulation and muscle fiber damage, the pathway through which bodybuilders build muscle.

I've been doing this for 6 months now, along with Peat's guidelines, and my recovery has been going well. Also, all the info that @haidut offers us is nothing short of life changing, so for that I THANK YOU very much my Bulgarian friend! I'd suggest you take a ook at the book, or if you prefer, I can give you some extra guidelines and that should do it. The one thing to take home on strength training is: less is more!

DaveFoster · Jun 2, 2016

Lyle McDonald speaks of the benefits of lactic acid in muscle cell metabolism. Lyle McDonald thinks Peat's a quack anyway.

Lyle also suffers from horrendous bipolar depression. Peat don't suffer from no depression, just sayin'.

haidut · Jun 2, 2016

Evandrojr said:
Hi @TCapp04 and @haidut , you guys might want to look into the work of Doug McGuff in Body by Science. After many years of professional water polo and then many more years of Crossfit which, nedless to say, RUINED my health, I am now following his protocol. Long story short: it's a once a week workout, very slow movements, heavy but controlled and safe, no explosion. This prevents the formation of Lactic Acid, so the strength and size gains come from CNS (Central Nervous System) activation instead of Lactic acid accumulation and muscle fiber damage, the pathway through which bodybuilders build muscle.

I've been doing this for 6 months now, along with Peat's guidelines, and my recovery has been going well. Also, all the info that @haidut offers us is nothing short of life changing, so for that I THANK YOU very much my Bulgarian friend! I'd suggest you take a ook at the book, or if you prefer, I can give you some extra guidelines and that should do it. The one thing to take home on strength training is: less is more!

Thanks for the nice words! I found the book as a PDF, so I'll definitely take a look.

Lightbringer · Jun 2, 2016

Evandrojr said:
Hi @TCapp04 and @haidut , you guys might want to look into the work of Doug McGuff in Body by Science. After many years of professional water polo and then many more years of Crossfit which, nedless to say, RUINED my health, I am now following his protocol. Long story short: it's a once a week workout, very slow movements, heavy but controlled and safe, no explosion. This prevents the formation of Lactic Acid, so the strength and size gains come from CNS (Central Nervous System) activation instead of Lactic acid accumulation and muscle fiber damage, the pathway through which bodybuilders build muscle.

I've been doing this for 6 months now, along with Peat's guidelines, and my recovery has been going well. Also, all the info that @haidut offers us is nothing short of life changing, so for that I THANK YOU very much my Bulgarian friend! I'd suggest you take a ook at the book, or if you prefer, I can give you some extra guidelines and that should do it. The one thing to take home on strength training is: less is more!

I tried this sometime ago while dabbling in Paleo. It did significantly grow muscle mass in a short period of time. Hmm I could now try this again with a Peatarian approach. The two concerns that I had with this were:
a) It definitely feels better post-workout when you take out acceleration. However, I'm not sure how safe the extended time spent in the eccentric part of the movement is. Peat mentions concentric being helpful.
b) The breathing - the guy i was training with had me breathing quick breaths , almost hyperventilating if I remember. Perhaps I was doing this wrong - How do you breathe during the movement ?

Lightbringer · Jun 2, 2016

haidut said:
Thanks for the nice words! I found the book as a PDF, so I'll definitely take a look.

You might find his youtube videos useful. I don't have access at the moment, but if you search for "Doug McGuff Big 5 workout", he has a whole bunch of youtube videos of him doing these movements. Note that he himself is Paleo (last I checked).

haidut · Jun 2, 2016

Lightbringer said:
You might find his youtube videos useful. I don't have access at the moment, but if you search for "Doug McGuff Big 5 workout", he has a whole bunch of youtube videos of him doing these movements. Note that he himself is Paleo (last I checked).

Thanks, I found those too. It's first thing on Google when you search for his name. The PDF was a bit more challenging to find but it's still there.

nerfherder · Jun 2, 2016

haidut said:
In certain circumstances Gironda would recommend up to 3 dozen fertile hen-eggs a day

What difference would fertile eggs make? I ask because I eat fertile eggs out of simplicity - there's a rooster in with the flock. I'll make sure not to eat three dozen a day.

haidut · Jun 2, 2016

nerfherder said:
What difference would fertile eggs make? I ask because I eat fertile eggs out of simplicity - there's a rooster in with the flock. I'll make sure not to eat three dozen a day.

Don't know, I have seen people achieve the same results with non-fertilized eggs as well. Maybe it was just something the journalist added thinking it sounds better.

Evandrojr · Jun 3, 2016

Lightbringer said:
You might find his youtube videos useful. I don't have access at the moment, but if you search for "Doug McGuff Big 5 workout", he has a whole bunch of youtube videos of him doing these movements. Note that he himself is Paleo (last I checked).

Hi @Lightbringer , regarding your concern with the eccentric portion of the movement, I believe it plays an important role in the "time under tension" approach and I don't think it would be unsafe given the proper choice of exercises. I fear that if you go faster on the eccentric, you might end up using too much of a "bounce" on the next concentric rep, which could recruit tendons and ligaments more than muscle. To be fair, I definitely don't go as slow as Doug does, I just go slow and controlled, but not super slow, paying a lot of attention to always keep my core very tight and contracted.

Regarding the breathing, because I don't go as slow as he does (or the guys in the videos), I never feel the need for that rapid a breathing. It's tough and by the end of the workout my muscles feel fatigued, but none of that burning sensation and certainly not panting and heavy sweating. Oh, I should also mention, I use his concepts (Minimum effective effort, time under tension, etc) but not necessarily the same machines/exercises. I tend to use more isometric/calesthenics exercises, the moves you find on programs such as Chris Sommers "Gymnastic Bodies". Nothing fancy, but they are extremely function and place much more focus on health of soft tissue (tendons, ligaments, cartilage) than muscles.

Today I have a workout program (if we can really call it that) that I feel amazing with, but that took me A LOT of experimentation and studying. Thankfully no serious irreversible injuries, but stuff like Crossfit and heavy power lifting can potentially mess you up for life. In any case, I strongly believe that strength training is essential to longevity and good health, and just really being an old dude who won't through my back or break my hips because of a stupid fall, or because I pick up my kid in a bad angle and now can't walk for days. Also helps with keeping myself lean and we all know how important that is for estrogen control. I can tell you in more details what I do nowadays if you'd like.

Peatit · Jun 3, 2016

Isn't lactate a major product of the hepatic fructose metabolism?

haidut · Jun 3, 2016

Peatit said:
Isn't lactate a major product of the hepatic fructose metabolism?

Not that I know of. Fructose should be getting converted into glycogen pretty efficiently. Do you have any pointers for that claim?

thegiantess · Jun 3, 2016

This reminds me of Martin Berkhan. Dude does a very small amount of training, I think maybe 3 times a week and only does a few lifts. He then bashes an insane amount of food and he is ridiculously ripped. I mean, it doesn't even make same how ripped he is.

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