Diaphragmatic breathing

Hello there

Does anyone know whether Ray has discussed diaphragmatic breathing at all? I recall Paul Chek et al talking about it's importance back in the day, and how we begin to breathe shallower as we become adults or as we're stressed.
IIRC, deep breathing supposedly lowers cortisol (or perhaps shallow breathing just increases it?).
I haven't looked into this properly, but I would like hear about it in a Peaty context

Summary: Diaphragmatic breathing is a good habit. It tends to improve CO2 levels. It can be retrained.

Long version: :) From Peat I've read confirmation of the importance of maintaining high enough CO2 levels, (bag breathing, high metabolism, but I have not read anything from him about diaphragmatic breathing. My thoughts are informed by various sources, including Artour at normalbreathing.com, and a little from other traditions. Pranarupa might know more about this, but I haven't seen him on here for a while.

My understanding is that when we are functioning well, we breath mostly with the diaphragm, which is designed for continuous variable use. This mechanical action gives continuous gentle massage/stimulation to the internal organs, and helps promote good blood flow, supports peristalsis, etc, along with all the good effects of CO2 itself on these processes.

When we need more air to support greater exertion, we temporarily add in the chest muscles and eventually the muscles up around the clavicles to increase the lung volume further. These muscles are not intended to be used for breathing all the time, just for high oxygen demand times.
A stressful event tends to promote faster breathing and chest-breathing, which can be useful for real fight/flight situations, but not so useful for many of the current stresses we live with that don't require extra physical exertion. Ideally as soon as the acute stress is over and we are safe again, we return to relaxed slow diaphragmatic breathing. If we don't relax and return to small slow diaphragmatic breathing, because either the external stress or our internal perception of it continues, we can eventually lower the CO2 set point and get into a state of continuous (mostly unaware) hyperventilation. This is a very common state of affairs. Under long term chronic stress some of us get into the habit of chest breathing, and the diaphragm gets tense and even deactivated for extended periods. This means that not only do we not retain as much CO2 as we need, but we are putting the chest muscles under constant stresses that they were only designed to bear intermittently, and neglecting the massage of internal organs afforded by a moving diaphragm.

The terms shallow and deep can both be a both ambiguous in this context - I've seen arguments where people appear to be getting tangled up by using differing meanings. Deep can mean into the lower area of the lungs (diaphragmatic - large or small breaths), or it can mean large - using as much of the lungs as possible. Shallow can mean small volume or it can mean clavicular/thoracic (but not diaphragmatic). If people are promoting "deep" breathing meaning to increase the volume of lungs used and the rate of exchange of oxygen and CO2 (often with the misconception that CO2 is a waste to be eliminated as much as possible), this is often not helpful. It is ideal to have a habit of breathing with a low rate of exchange at rest, eg imperceptible diaphragmatic breathing.

I think Artour also suggests that the lower part of the lungs may get more oxygen while losing less CO2.
Artour does not promote 'deep' breathing, as in taking in more air - he promotes small volume diaphragmatic breathing.
Some other traditions (eg eg pranayama) include some 'deeper' breathing practices, using diaphragmatic, thoracic and clavicular breathing and increasing lung volume, but they also slow the breathing right down, to reduce CO2 (prana?) losses.

Hyperventilation has effects on pH levels in the body, and can sometimes provide protective compensate for overly acidic states, eg diabetic acidosis. I don't know if this plays into diaphragmatic breathing. For me, I think increasing alkaline minerals has got me a little less chronically acidic, and this has also helped my breathing.

I speculate that one of the reasons laughter can be the best medicine is that when we laugh we move and relieve physical tension in the diaphragm (as well as lightening emotional tension and its other effects on our physiology). By reactivating, working out, and relaxing our diaphragm, we can more easily return to lighter breathing, better CO2 levels, better oxygen flow to our brains, digestion and other internal organs.

A couple of years ago, when I started reading about hyperventilation and started to pay attention, I often caught myself chest-breathing. I succeeded in largely retraining this habit. Now I only occasionally catch myself a it, it feels weird and stressful, and I can usually consciously restore diaphragmatic breathing quickly. If I can't, it usually means I need to attend to other physical needs - eg food, calcium, or sleep.

Some conscious exercises to practice were helpful, but the easiest way I found to retrain the subconscious habit was to use a belt around my chest for a couple of hours or overnight a few times.

I believe diaphragmatic breathing is trainable however I also believe that the ability to physiologically engage in it actually requires sound nutritional status and also looking at what happens during stress. You need the nutrients magnesium, zinc, calcium, co2, sugars to be able to use the diaphragm properly, stress uses up nutrients and then you try to force diaphragm breathing, which can be a stressor on its own for some people.

My physiology has changed but some experimentation with high sugars (creating co2) helped bring on relaxation which reinforced diaphragm breathing and in some instances actually allowed it to happen. I am guessing I went from a stressed situation to a more relaxed one.

maximus said:

I believe diaphragmatic breathing is trainable however I also believe that the ability to physiologically engage in it actually requires sound nutritional status and also looking at what happens during stress. You need the nutrients magnesium, zinc, calcium, co2, sugars to be able to use the diaphragm properly, stress uses up nutrients and then you try to force diaphragm breathing, which can be a stressor on its own for some people.

My physiology has changed but some experimentation with high sugars (creating co2) helped bring on relaxation which reinforced diaphragm breathing and in some instances actually allowed it to happen. I am guessing I went from a stressed situation to a more relaxed one.

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I agree that you also need good nutrient status, including all the things you said - minerals and sugar and producing more CO2 makes it easier to have relaxed diaphragmatic breathing at a good rate. When I can't easily get diaphragmatic breathing working now, it is usually because I am low in sugar or minerals, or high in estrogen (I assume, since progest-e makes a difference, or there is some other physical stressor at play. I still have a habitual breathing rate that I think indicates a low CO2 set point and inadequate CO2 production, even though I have relearned to breath using nose and diaphragm. So I'm still trying to figure out how to improve my overall metabolism.

As far as I know, there are a few conditions under which hyperventilation is protective, and deliberately overriding it to reduce breathing could cause problems. That I am aware of, these include trauma to the head - reducing CO2 reduces dangerous bleeding, and overly acid states such as diabetic acidosis - I think hyperventilation has an alkalising effect. Also, for people who experience migraines (me) or panic attacks, trying to reduce breathing too fast can trigger such episodes. One or two of my early attempts at reduced breathing exercises, before reading Peat, seemed to push me over into migraine. I now suspect that was because it pushed my blood sugar too low.

As far as I know, you can still hyperventilate diaphragmatically, and if you can retrain habitual diaphragmatic breathing, most of the time - ie when you are not consciously overriding it - the breathing rate will still be controlled by the normal mechanisms - an interplay of CO2 set point, sometimes more severe hypoxia, stress chemicals and autonomic nervous system. I think habitual diaphragmatic breathing helps against further ramping up the stress cycle of physical tension, hyperventilation, and other stress processes. It seems to help with the ability to relax more fully, when other conditions are favourable for relaxation. Personally, I can not relax when I am hungry or cold, either, so they have to be right too.

Personally, I did not experience any distress while retraining my diaphragm, probably because I was not trying to simultaneously control my breathing rate. My experience was that I was able to make this change before I learned about and made any of the other changes that would also support better CO2 levels, and that it was beneficial in itself. Since then I have also begun eating vastly more sugar (and more calcium and magnesium and progest-e), and this further helps my breathing. I have also noticed that occasionally forcing diaphragmatic breathing has helped me to physically relax and think in stressful situations. What stresses do you think can be caused by diaphragmatic breathing?

I see it as one of the many threads we can pull to unravel the effects of stress and malnourishment on the way to healthier metabolism and functioning - along with many others.

Wow. Incredibly insightful posts Tara. Thank you so much!!

I heard that belly breathing actually causes back problems and isn't the natural breathing we should due doing (opposite of what Paul Chek says). I tend to agree with this considering the only people who actually belly breathe are the ones who consciously do it because they learned from a yoga or meditation instructor.

If even half of people did it naturally that would be something but literally no one does it instinctually.

Craigy2 said:

I heard that belly breathing actually causes back problems and isn't the natural breathing we should due doing (opposite of what Paul Chek says). I tend to agree with this considering the only people who actually belly breathe are the ones who consciously do it because they learned from a yoga or meditation instructor.

If even half of people did it naturally that would be something but literally no one does it instinctually.

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Hi. I haven't heard of this as a problem before.

Maybe there are people who consciously practice belly-breathing but try to hold their bellies in unnaturally at the same time? - just a speculation.
I wasn''t aware there was any controversy about the diaphram muscle being intended for breathing. But then I've been surprised by many things I thought I knew being questioned in the last couple of years. :)

I have no idea what the statistics are overall, but I think I know at least some people who seem to naturally belly-breathe, including at least one who hates any kind of deliberate exercises and wouldn't dream of doing yoga or deliberate meditation.

Can you elaborate on this Craigy2?

Belly breathing actually activates the transverse abdominal which actually aids in supporting the spine. So you would think that belly breathing would be protective of the spine.

maximus said:

Belly breathing actually activates the transverse abdominal which actually aids in supporting the spine. So you would think that belly breathing would be protective of the spine.

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That's what I would have expected too.

I've always belly breathed (I retrained it doing singing lessons years ago) and I've found the only time I'm not doing it is when I'm stressed at work, in which as stopping for a moment to breathe properly calms me down (though this could simply because I've shifted my focus away from work issues).

Curt :-) said:

Can you elaborate on this Craigy2?

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Sorry for taking a while to get back to this. I actually don't know the science ro specifics on it. I had come across a post on youtube where someone more educated on the topic made the comment on how it is no good for the spine and made reference to Stuart McGill. I'll try to find that post since I don't have th answer for it.

I was trained to look for peoples breathing patterns and I can honestly say I believe 99% of people don't breathe properly according to the chek model.

Also it turns out I have two accounts not on purpose... I must have created one and then forgot and then made a new one next time I came in... but I am Craigy2 ha

Ok So I found it.
A youtube poster (I'll leave his name off this so that people dont think Im promoting a youtube service) said this:


"+Brady you should not belly breath that's new age bs and you will end up with back pain"

Someone asked him to explain more and he said:

"that`s EXACTLY like the low carb / high carb debate. I might do a video about this one, if you`re going to watch it. I refer to the works of Dr. Schmitt (on which practically all german breathing schools base their work) and Prof. McGill for back performance. The background of german gymnastics and breath schools is absolutely stunning and a great study of history.

Technically, it boils down to that there are muscles for breathing, and muscles for stabilising the area between pelvis and chest. mix those two up and you will end up with either back pain or as a couch potato who does not want to move. a professional world class trumpet player will have had a lot of specific breath and stabilising training and will easily be able to get it right.

Sports-wise, it happens even to world class athletes and they mix those muscles and end up either disabled having to quit their career, or in the labs of Prof. McGill, or in a Feldenkrais practice to learn how to do it correctly. To just push out your belly for breathing in is probably worse than paradoxical breathing. But, unfortunately, that's what most uneducated breath-work-laymen teach."

Craigy said:

Ok So I found it.
A youtube poster (I'll leave his name off this so that people dont think Im promoting a youtube service) said this:

"+Brady you should not belly breath that's new age bs and you will end up with back pain"

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Thoughts on different ways to breath have been around for thousands of years, so not sure how it could be considered new age. I loose faith in ones opinion when they use generalizations like this.

I'm sure there are situations where belly breaths would cause back pain, but it's not an absolute.

I would consider things like pelvic position, pelvic & core muscle activation, volume of belly breath, static holding of belly breath, etc, as possible reasons for injury.

Tara said:

Maybe there are people who consciously practice belly-breathing but try to hold their bellies in unnaturally at the same time? - just a speculation.

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It is possible to naturally belly breath while holding your belly in (flat). This is not akin to chest breathing for vanities sake. While standing, if you have your pelvic & core muscles activated, your diaphragm breath will go straight down to the genital region rather then causing your stomach to protrude.

Thanks for getting back to us Craigy.

I think this guys post is too brief/vague to build a case against belly breathing. I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with it, but I think it WOULD be harmful if one was to push out their belly on purpose.

I know this thread is ancient, but it's very interesting and I've had occasion to think about this topic recently. There are some very insightful comments here and I think it's a subject that needs more attention.

I think there may be a distinction between diaphragmatic breathing and belly breathing, while chest breathing is more obviously another thing altogether. If I really relax and concentrate, I can breath into my lower lungs without using or extending my belly muscles. Try it. It's awkward at first for me just finding those muscles and disengage the once I might normally use to breathe with. So, it seems possible to breathe into the lower portion of the lungs using either more of the diaphragm or more of other muscles down there, like expanding the belly out. I think that may prove to be an important distinction.

Artour at Normalbreathing says the muscles in the abdomen should be relaxed. I think he's saying that all the muscles that might be used for breathing otherwise, or tensed for any reason should be relaxed. In another school of thought entirely, Gokhale and Katy Bowman seem to encourage breathing with activation of the rib cage into the upper portion of the lungs. I think Gokhale is freakin' awesome. The little I do has already helped me quite a bit and I feel like I know for the first time what good posture is and don't have major conflicts with my body in trying to implement it. In Gohkale theory the muscles banding the torso, which they refer to as the inner corset, are almost always engaged and it is largely those that protect the spine and maintain good posture. I have come to think that they are correct on that. But, they seem to actually discourage abdominal breathing, saying that the fact that properly engaging the muscle "corset", as they call it, encourages chest breathing and that is a good thing.

My feeling is that they are probably both right and wrong to some extent. I can have my "corset" muscles fully engaged and still use my diaphragm to breathe into my abdominal area. In fact, having those muscles engaged makes it harder to overbreathe into the abdomen. On the contray it rather encourages shallow breathing. It also makes it difficult to breathe using other abdominal muscles. When a lot more air is needed, the chest expands more than it might if the corset muscles were relaxed.

I've had a difficult time with any breathing exercises or retraining. I agree with what was posted above regarding that the person's biochemistry may have to be at a certain place to make progress with it, or at least to make great progress. This is stated is apparent in Buteyko stuff too, but you have to read between the lines. The statement is commonly made (at least by Artour) that overbreathing is the cause of basically everything. But then they admit that you won't make progress if you have this condition, or that condition. If you are obese, if you don't eat the right foods, if you have infection, if your liver isn't functioning right and so on. Everyone seems to see the world through the lens of their specialty, but clearly the picture is much more complicated than >over breathing causes disease, therefore if you stop over breathing, you will be healthy<. For me, even slightly changes in breathing,and especially abdominal breathing often gives me significant air hunger. I haven't tried for a while, but when my control pause was 5 to 8 seconds, using Artour's "Amazing DIY Breathing Device" (similar to the frolov device... some of CO2 is re-breathed) caused a several day episode of shortness of breath, mild angina and general weakness and debility. On the other hand, Iodine supplementation when I first started, spontaneously lowered my breathing and increased my control pause. In general, when I'm feeling much better than usual, my CP will often improve and breathing becomes easy and comfortable, though not always less. I'm inclined to think at this point that my endogenous CO2 production is likely compromised, but that for some reason, trying to raise it with breath retraining isn't working.

I'm inclined to agree with Tara that chest breathing has a place when more ventilation is needed, but that at rest, abdominal breathing using the diaphragm is probably more normal, but I'm open to the idea that it may be a little of both and there is obviously not a clear line in the lung where one part either does or does not take on any air at all. So our experience of breathing and conception is just that and not necessarily reality.

I highly recommend looking into the Gohkale school of posture. Much can be learned from online videos, and the book is very good, though classes may be needed eventually (I haven't taken any yet, but hope to when I'm up for it). I think Esther Gokhale is right that the corset muscles should be engaged most of the time in normal daily life and activity, but rather than conflicting with buteyko, it may very well encourage shallow diaphragmatic breathing, though it is likely to encourage chest breathing in those who are already chest over-breathers. I think in general though, they are of the modern school of thought that deeper breathing= more oxygen = more better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtQ1VqGGU74

It would be nice if someone who is not already attached to an ideology would delve deeply into this area. I don't trust anyone, but I definitely don't trust Artour on this subject, though much of his information is very compelling and I think reveals some real issues and possible routes to solutions. It's fine to say that someone should breathe naturally, but what the hell is that if a person is unhealthy? One of the most interesting things Artour brings up is that the rate of ventilation has increased in the general population. I believe the 80's was when it really shot up. What's up with that? It seems stupid to just say that see, since we started breathing more according to this chart, we have increases in degenerative illness, therefore over breathing causes these illness. The information is compelling, but what is causing us to over breathe? That seems like the real question and I definitely can't accept that it's psychosocial. I feel sure from observing my own breathing, that it is primarily coming from somewhere within and not the other way around. Sure, practicing breath retraining toward the end of breathing less and raising CO2 levels might move us in the right direction, and it might be the magic bullet for some, but I think there is much more going on and the view should be more expansive and inquisitive. I think it's easy for people to get extreme with view points on this kind of stuff... >this is good so you should do it all the time, this is bad, so you should never, ever do it<. I think that even hyperventilation must have a place. What about yawning? Artour says straight up that sneezing, sighing and yawning are unnatural. bull****. Tell that to a yawning, sneezing, sighing dog! In a general sense though, I'm pretty well on the page that low ventilation at rest is something we should be looking to and using as an indicator of proper function, similar to energy, sex drive, sleep, body temp and the like.

I would love to hear any further thoughts on this subject, or thoughts on my thoughts!

Iodine made breathing easier for you. It is still beneficial or you stopped iodine?

I tried Artour DIY device but probably not long enough. 10 minutes breathing with it and it made my breathing very easy and I was very calm, but it didn't last more than 30 minutes.

I tried Artour's DIY device a small number of times, 2 of which were followed by migraines. I probably was underfueled when I began, not having read Peat's take on sugar etc at that stage (and not realising I needed to follow Artour's advice about honey). The migraine process may have already been underway when I did the exercises, so I don't say it was causal, but the exercises did not interrupt them, either. I did not practice enough to get a sense of whether it would have helped in the long run - couldn't tell that the cost benefit ratio was sufficiently favourable at that time. Artour also says that with migraines you have to take it slow to not trigger them. It is possible that it would be more helpful now that I think I have improved if not optimal nutrition.
I think Artour has lots of good info, but I suspect that some of the techniques he promotes to lengthen control pause actually function by reducing metabolism (eg long cardio and fish oil). The cold showers only if you already have a CP reliably above 25s may make sense.
I think you are right, Stephen, that for many people just addressing the breathing is not going to be enough to pull us out of our metabolic downers, and that we also need to address other factors that may be more fundamentally causal. As Peat says, improving CO2 production is important, not just slowing CO2 losses, and there are many factors involved in that.

I have Esther Gokhale on my list of people I want to read/watch. And I've read some of Katy Bowman's blog, but don't recall reading her on breathing.

I've skimmed through Esther's book Steven, along with another author who I can't remember, but their ideas really helped to reshape my ideas on posture. I had really bad lower back pain after I developed a habit of trying to stick my chest out. It's been something like a year since I read that and I've since learned how to relax my posture and activate that "inner corset". I can also now extend my thoracic spine without arching my lower back which was difficult with my kyphotic posture. I've been attempting to learn how to front squat with a barbell, but my flexibility just isn't there yet.

I too at one point tried to belly breathe. It felt incredibly unnatural and would indeed cause me low back pain. Since I've developed a bit more rigidity in my core, I do feel an expansion in my chest and back as I take increasingly larger breaths. When I lay on my bed, my stomach tends to expand more because it is less engaged.

Nitkotrope: I have messed with iodine on and off. It has done amazing things, but not consistently and I recently jumped up to 100 mg as an experiment and experienced kidney pain, so I'm chilling on that for a while. Iodine is a very confusing issue. Many have amazing and broad results, but some have serious problems. Others don't react at all! I'm not convinced that anyone is right about iodine (or anything else )

IneterrogaOmnia: The problem I have with doing gokhale is energy. It still requires energy to engage the core and I spend a lot of down time in a lazyboy, so I'm just not at a place where I can keep any momentum going with it. But, I agree that it teaches basically what posture should be and that alone is worth a lot. The little I do stretch-lying in bed and practicing other stuff a little when I have some energy to do so, has helped a lot. When I have more energy now, I tend to start automatically falling into a better posture, which was not the case in the past at all. I've grown about an inch in height, maybe a little more.

Belly breathing almost always feels like I'm not getting enough air.

Tara: Peat seems to say that, both the positive side of the metabolism and the negative encourage themselves. If so, more CO2 added with bag breathing, breathing exercises etc, should encourage the glucose to CO2 pathway and self perpetuate to an extent. I just don't think that is happening for me usually. I have a lot more experimenting to do. I was put off by the DIY device after experiencing some slightly scary symptoms afterward, but I need to mess with it more when I'm felling better. When I start feeling better, everything seems to just fall into place. I can sleep better, breath easier (though not always less, it varies), and so much more. I'm still looking for the foot in the door to be able to make progress with the breathing stuff. I'm thinking about building a tent to sleep in that retains CO2, basically sleeping in a giant paper bag!

Artour says that using the DIY device, or doing breathing exercises should make the hands and feet warm, lower the pulse and increase breath holding time. I"m not sure I've ever had any of those things happen to any noticeable extent. Peat usually says slow pulse is negative, but warm hands and feet I would think of as usually positive. Do you think lowering metabolism would increase CP by reducing oxygen used in cellular respiration?