VoS Uncoupling Thread

ilovethesea said:

I have a question about weight gain and cyproheptadine. I've been taking it now for almost a year to combat severe allergies (blocked/runny nose) that developed a few months into following the diet, I guess from immune system waking up after stopping PUFAs. I also take it to help with suspected high serotonin issue.

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I had chronically blocked/runny nose pretty much years and years before "peating", then it stopped. Still now, if I go out and eat something offensive, I notice the nose clogging. Otherwise, I stopped using cypro because I find pregnenolone does a better job for overall health.

John Eels said:

When I'm uncoupling the cheeks turn to a very healthy color.

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I have always felt that this a good indicator of general health, together with no dark shadows under eyes.

ilovethesea said:

I have a question about weight gain and cyproheptadine. I've been taking it now for almost a year to combat severe allergies (blocked/runny nose) that developed a few months into following the diet, I guess from immune system waking up after stopping PUFAs. I also take it to help with suspected high serotonin issue.

Although I did gain weight even before I went on the cypro (caused from stopping all my cardio exercise and having so much more fat in my diet), I think it's the cypro that has caused me to continue to gain to the point where I'm unhappy about it. (I don't weigh myself but it looks like at least 15 lbs, maybe more. I still fit in most of my clothes but seem so much flabbier on thighs/arms.)

It does say on the bottle that permanent weight gain is one of the side effects of cyproheptadine. I don't really understand the mechanism by which that would happen. Do you think following this uncoupling protocol would be enough to overcome it? Would I need to stop the cypro in order to have a chance at losing weight? Or am I stuck with this fat now?

I'm hesistant to give it up since it helps with the allergies so much. Even when I follow a no-starch diet I find I need the cypro - my breathing is never perfectly clear... and I'm sure the low CO2 is causing other problems. But the weight gain is really bothering me. Any suggestions?

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I'm interested in any answers you get on this.

In a study published (Meta-analysis) in the Journal of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition from June 2004 (adults included more than 1/2 of study participants) cyproheptadine was found to cause a short term modest but clinically meaningful weight gain in the under weight or those with loss of appetite. I will try to link this study.
Search: P1185 Efficacy of Cyproheptadine for Promoting Weight Gain and hopefully the study will come up. That's the best I can do until I can get to a actual computer :)
For what it's worth cyproheptadine hasn't seemed to make much difference in my own weight but I wasn't under weight when I started taking it.

I have some more questions besides the cypro thing above.

visionofstrength said:

To Get Ripped (7% bodyfat), I could probably go nonfat, and just focus on protein and fructose, and I would expect to lose whatever scant bodyfat I have very quickly, while maintaining lean body mass. I may do that experiment next, with pics! Paying customers only!

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Fructose - Do you mean from fruits or pure fructose? This is all I can find for the latter and it's derived from corn. https://well.ca/products/now-real-food- ... 19759.html. Not sure if that's a good idea... is it?

visionofstrength said:

[Edit: on second thought, I don't know that going nonfat would work. I think I spoke too soon, sorry! To lose bodyfat, I may need to exercise more, without raising lactic acid, rather than be sedentary as I am now.]

I feel like I can understand how the bodybuilders do it, now. I never could before, until I started to grok Peat.

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Exercise - I'm confused now, I thought the "uncouplers" (vitamin E, aspirin, niacinamide, vitamins K and D, thyroid hormone, progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, coffee at 4X strength mixed with nonfat milk, fructose and coconut oil.) were what would cause the 'effortless' fat loss.

Are you now saying we should exercise to lose fat in addition to the uncoupling strategy - and if so, what do you suggest? I'm concerned about the effect of exercise on my thyroid.

visionofstrength said:

taylor108 said:

Could you give us an example of your daily routine-diet, aspirin/supplements, exercise, etc? Sorry, I'm just curious and a little confused since I don't really know much about dinitrophenol or CO2. Do you do the bag breathing at all?

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I do a kind of bag breathing, where I introduce a very fine stream of CO2 into a mask that I'm breathing in. This kind of bag breathing is much safer, because you never get too hypoxic, and you can continue it as long as you like, even while you sleep!

I also use 1/4 cup of activated charcoal every other night.

Other than that, I just do (I think) everything that Peat seems to say that he does himself.

For a diet that minimizes intestinal inflammation and unsaturated fat, I use honey, sugar and cocoa butter, (steady snacking). These work for me, but may not for you? I supplement with about 3 ounces of liver and a glass of orange juice.

For protein that does not have too much methionine and tryptophan, I use nonfat milk and nonfat cottage cheese with salt to taste (steady snacking). These just so happen to work for me, but may not for you?

For anti-inflammatory "uncouplers" I use all of these every few hours or so: vitamin E (400 mg), aspirin (325 mg), niacinamide (250mg), thiamine (50 mg), vitamins K2 and D3 (1 or 2 drops), thyroid (half grain Thyroid-S), progesterone (1 drop Progest-E), DHEA (5 mg), coffee at 4X strength mixed with nonfat milk (steady sipping), magnesium water (2 ounces, recipe here: http://www.afibbers.org/Wallerwater.pdf), and a teaspoon of coconut and MCT oil mixed 50/50.

But when waking up, I take a triple dose of aspirin (1 gram) and a double dose of thyroid (1 grain). I do this to get the plasma concentration up quickly because Peat thinks stress is greatest at night, from dark and hunger.

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Ok, I thought I'd try this protocol for a few days to see how it worked for me. I'm used to taking upwards of a gram of aspirin a day with no side effects, and I've taken the other supplements as well. The only thing I've never taken is DHEA, so I bought some of that too. I put the vitamin E (Lotion Crafter) and Estroban into my own gel cap for convenience sake, and just two drops of each.

So I had a slew of pills to take throughout the day. I took the one gram of aspirin crystals (dissolved in water) first thing in the morning, then the regimen of 350g aspirin, 400+/- mg of vitamin e, 5mg DHEA, 100mg Pregnenolone, 1 drop progest-e, 2drops estroban, 250mg Niacinamide, and 100mg Thiamine at 8a, 11:30a and 3:30p.
During the day, I had some of the Magnesium water, OJ, strong coffee and did some bag breathing. I also had roughly 100 grams of protein (mostly greek yogurt, strained again through a coffee filter - works well for me)

Now after dinner is where it became "problematic". I ate a dinner that I'd never made before, three sopes/gorditas with b-b-q pork. For those that are unfamiliar, sopes are just masa harina, water and salt.
Shortly after dinner, my chest felt funny, not like sharp pains in my heart area, but as best as I can describe it, intermittent soft pain in my diaphragm area, just below my heart.
Naturally, it was a bit disconcerting so I did not take my final set of pills that evening.

So that was the "probematic" part - now here's where it gets strange! The next day my chest felt better. I did not take the 1gm aspiring in the morning, nor did I take any suppliments that morning. The only Peaty add-on that morning was a little red light for 10 minutes, which is not unusual.

I had my normal OJ, cheese, yogurt and coffee for breakfast and by mid morning... POW, 100+ bpm and a very unusual 98.4 temp. For most of you, that may be no big deal, but for me that is very unusual. I can get up to 98.6 early in the morning (recently) after sleeping with my night cap on, but I'm almost ALWAYS at 97.6/7 thorough the day.

That was two days ago and I have not re-started the protocol since. Over the past two days my temps have risen a couple tenths of a degree but have not reached the daytime 98's since. My pulse has been in the 70/80s and stays in those higher ranges when I keep my protein levels high.

So I'm considering starting the protocol again, but I wanted to run that by everyone to see if the chest pains may have been a fluke, possibly related to my dinner or the way I was taking the vit e maybe? or was it the DHEA in combo?? I know Dr. Peat said that the corn/lime combination in masa harina creates a fair amount of Niacin, could that or the starch have played any part?

Should I stick to the aspirin only?? or some lighter version or a revised supplement protocol?

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to get some feed-back before I proceeded.

visionofstrength said:

the comment about exercise was meant for me, if I was going to do cutting (to a very low body weight).... if you can exercise without lactic acid or hyperventilating, then exercise should be fine! But the uncouplers should work even if you are sedentary.

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Thanks for clarifying. (This was in the reputation point comment in case anyone didn't see it.)

Asking this q again - what is the fructose you are using? Fruit or a powder? Is corn derived ok? I found a post of Cliff's advising against fructose powder... I'm curious about it though as I have trouble getting good fruit here in Canada.

Also any thoughts on cypro - is it a barrier to weight loss ??

I think the fructose powder is like 98% pure, which sounds enough to have heavy metal contamination and such. Maybe stick to fruits and honey?

I've always thought weight loss was a subtheme of Peat's work, he mentions it over and over in his articles: coconut makes you lean, milk makes hips thinner, PUFA lowers metabolism, starches cause obesity, sugars raise metabolism, people lose weight just by eating the carrot, etc.

I've always wondered what the big deal is about discussing it, so am glad see this thread. It's especially great to see that there's no mention of exercise...............

I've tried all the mentioned supps (thyroid, aspirin, coffee, etc), and they work. I lost 3 lbs overnight, for example, just from adding thyroid.

Lately I have dropped all but coffee; I got tired of the side effects. My temps and pulses off them are actually higher.

It could be I dosed the uncouplers wrong, or that the constant small doses don't work for me, or I didn't eat enough carbs. I did go up to 300 grams some days.

I guess I'll just wait for the next shipment of Cytomel and try again.

It's strange to me that weight loss is a subtheme of Peat's work when people usually gain weight eating this way. Although I think the people who gain a lot sort of misread/overdo what's being presented. Fix your metabolism and you can eat all the ice cream you want.

messtafarian said:

It's strange to me that weight loss is a subtheme of Peat's work when people usually gain weight eating this way. Although I think the people who gain a lot sort of misread/overdo what's being presented. Fix your metabolism and you can eat all the ice cream you want.

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It's all about contex. In my case I think it's the exercise; I walk a lot due to not having a car. I found on Cytomel I couldn't keep from getting out of breath. I'm also over 40 and trying to recover from a long-standing ED.

I'd rather feel warm and toasty in the afternoon and sleep through the night than be skinny at this point. Labs might be a solution.

gretchen said:

I've always thought weight loss was a subtheme of Peat's work, he mentions it over and over in his articles: coconut makes you lean, milk makes hips thinner, PUFA lowers metabolism, starches cause obesity, sugars raise metabolism, people lose weight just by eating the carrot, etc.

I've always wondered what the big deal is about discussing it, so am glad see this thread. It's especially great to see that there's no mention of exercise...............

I've tried all the mentioned supps (thyroid, aspirin, coffee, etc), and they work. I lost 3 lbs overnight, for example, just from adding thyroid.

Lately I have dropped all but coffee; I got tired of the side effects. My temps and pulses off them are actually higher.

It could be I dosed the uncouplers wrong, or that the constant small doses don't work for me, or I didn't eat enough carbs. I did go up to 300 grams some days.

I guess I'll just wait for the next shipment of Cytomel and try again.

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Or could be your temps are lower when you take them because the supps are helping lower your stress. Just found this quote on that yesterday:

"When aspirin and niacinamide lower the temperature I think it's because they lower the stress hormones. " Ray Peat

ilovethesea said:

gretchen said:

I've always thought weight loss was a subtheme of Peat's work, he mentions it over and over in his articles: coconut makes you lean, milk makes hips thinner, PUFA lowers metabolism, starches cause obesity, sugars raise metabolism, people lose weight just by eating the carrot, etc.

I've always wondered what the big deal is about discussing it, so am glad see this thread. It's especially great to see that there's no mention of exercise...............

I've tried all the mentioned supps (thyroid, aspirin, coffee, etc), and they work. I lost 3 lbs overnight, for example, just from adding thyroid.

Lately I have dropped all but coffee; I got tired of the side effects. My temps and pulses off them are actually higher.

It could be I dosed the uncouplers wrong, or that the constant small doses don't work for me, or I didn't eat enough carbs. I did go up to 300 grams some days.

I guess I'll just wait for the next shipment of Cytomel and try again.

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Or could be your temps are lower when you take them because the supps are helping lower your stress. Just found this quote on that yesterday:

"When aspirin and niacinamide lower the temperature I think it's because they lower the stress hormones. " Ray Peat

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Is that what he says? Can you post a link to an article?

I started taking aspirin to help block the effects of PUFAs. I think Peat says it can be subbed in for thyroid. He also says it helps reduce estrogen, which I don't think it does.

Aspirin activates both glycolysis and mitochondrial respiration, and this means that it shifts the mitochondria away from the oxidation of fats, toward the oxidation of glucose, resulting in the increased production of carbon dioxide. Its action on the glycolytic enzyme, GAPDH, is the opposite of estrogen's.

If it did increase CO2, I didn't get the effects of a warmer body temperature.

I still take B vitamins, which don't seem cause additional stress.

VOS, you should write a book-- Mitochondrial Uncouplers: The Weight Loss Miracle. I bet a lot of people would buy it.

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gretchen said:

VOS, you should write a book-- Mitochondrial Uncouplers: The Weight Loss Miracle. I bet a lot of people would buy it.

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Thanks! As I make progress with dosing and frequency, and try to make this simple and practical, I may make a video app for iOS and Android, and a Kindle book. It would be the very first crash diet that actually works, and is good for you!

For example, I've just noticed that there is an easy feedback mechanism to see that the uncouplers are working, even if you don't have a CO2 sensor like I do.

I find you can just use your response to honey and strong coffee (4x strength). The more honey and strong coffee you can consume (in small doses, not on an empty stomach), the more your metabolic rate increases. Peat consumes about 1200 mg of caffeine a day, by sipping very strong coffee (4x strength) mixed with nonfat milk, and 200 grams of fruit sugar. That gives you a sense of where your target metabolic rate can be, if your liver is functioning well, and if you have enough fruit sugar.

As with all Peatian things, start slow and add a little more strong coffee each day and fruit sugar, staying within your comfort level. I know it may be surprising, but the more coffee, nonfat milk and fruit sugar/honey that you can comfortably have, the higher your metabolism is, and the more bodyfat you can lose!

gretchen said:

Is that what he says? Can you post a link to an article?

I started taking aspirin to help block the effects of PUFAs. I think Peat says it can be subbed in for thyroid. He also says it helps reduce estrogen, which I don't think it does.

Aspirin activates both glycolysis and mitochondrial respiration, and this means that it shifts the mitochondria away from the oxidation of fats, toward the oxidation of glucose, resulting in the increased production of carbon dioxide. Its action on the glycolytic enzyme, GAPDH, is the opposite of estrogen's.

If it did increase CO2, I didn't get the effects of a warmer body temperature.

I still take B vitamins, which don't seem cause additional stress.

VOS, you should write a book-- Mitochondrial Uncouplers: The Weight Loss Miracle. I bet a lot of people would buy it.

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It's in the email advice. http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges#aspirin

Have you ever taken thyroid Gretchen? Or cypro?

gretchen said:

VOS, you should write a book-- Mitochondrial Uncouplers: The Weight Loss Miracle. I bet a lot of people would buy it.

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First he'll have to persuade a few more people to try his dead sure method, so his book can include more than n=1 anectodotes, and maybe have some where someone actually lost weight. So far it's a nice hypothetical theory that is not yet demonstrated in any real cases. Looks like he might be working on that here.
And then weed out the unfounded claims.
And then consider risks and how to mitigate them.
If it's to be a public service, that is.

Unless he just want's to sell a lot of books by pushing people's buttons with a title guaranteed to attract attention and dollars, in which case attention to such mundane detail as safety and accuracy may not be necessary. I bet a lot of people would buy it too.

gretchen said:

I'm also over 40 and trying to recover from a long-standing ED.

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I don't know all of your story, Gretchen, so this may not apply to you particularly.

gretchen said:

I'd rather feel warm and toasty in the afternoon and sleep through the night than be skinny at this point.

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Looks like a good choice to me.

visionofstrength said:

... the higher your metabolism is, and the more bodyfat you can lose!

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I'm not convinced that it is responsible to keep trying to motivate people who may be engaging in or recovering from restrictive eating disorders (aka starvation) to follow a procedure on the basis of how much fat they can lose. I don't see an understanding that REDs are often deadly, and that people who are recovering or in remission from them can be pulled to relapse under some kind of pressures, including the socially ubiquitous 'Lose weight!' message.

I am not an expert on this, but from what I've read, people prone to REDs, practicing or recovering from them, do well to protect themselves as best they can from the constant barrage of messages saying everyone should lose weight, and surround themselves with people who will value them and their endeavours beyond this, and be pleased with them choosing life over thinness.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who have run down metabolisms by starving for weight control. It also seems likely that the people most at danger are the ones who can overrride hunger (or don't even feel it anymore), may be prone to doing everything except consume enough calories, even though you do recommend eating (or drinking) plenty.

I value this forum as a space to discuss and strategise about health on the basis of intelligence and evidence. I don't like it when people promote ideas on the basis of pushing emotional/irrational buttons (this is what I meant earlier about marketing hype). Appealling to people on an irrational basis (weight-loss miracle!) is not great way to encourage a rational approach.

I am not opposed to people losing fat under all circumstances - I expect that getting our health as good as we can will include some fat loss for some people. But I think health should take priority, and weight loss may follow for some but not all.

Peat's approach looks to me like systematically encouraging a rational approach to evidence. I value this greatly.

I do not think this conflicts with enthusiasm and zest for life, which as someone mentioned earlier is often a product of really good health. I am glad you have have found an approach that seems to make you feel and function well, and that you share that information. That's great.

"I find you can just use your response to honey and strong coffee (4x strength). The more honey and strong coffee you can consume (in small doses, not on an empty stomach), the more your metabolic rate increases. Peat consumes about 1200 mg of caffeine a day, by sipping very strong coffee (4x strength) mixed with nonfat milk, and 200 grams of fruit sugar. That gives you a sense of where your target metabolic rate can be, if your liver is functioning well, and if you have enough fruit sugar"

So if I'm using instant coffee and want to make an 8oz. cup using this formula....what would be the measurements?

Thanks!

I have made a considerable effort the past few weeks to be consistent with the small doses of coffee+aspirin+niacinamide throughout the day, and it has proven to be a pretty powerful tool to prevent the afternoon energy crash that I am accustomed to being prone to. I imagine there are also other uncoupling benefits that are not as pronounced. While I think it is wise to be careful with aspirin and its use must be supported by proper nutrition and vitamin intake, I seem to tolerate it much better than I used to.

So I was wondering how those of you who use the pure aspirin powder (the "animal aspirin") are able to incorporate that into your life when you are away from home or don't have the use of a stove? The only way that I can get it to dissolve is by bringing a small amount of water to a boil, tossing in the aspirin, and letting it simmer for a minute or two while agitating it to ensure that the crystals fully dissolve. That's fine when I'm at home and have the time and space to do that, but when I'm on the go I often have no way to boil water, and simply mixing hot water with the aspirin powder in a cup and stirring does not dissolve it.

I don't mind dissolving it ahead of time and taking that bit of aspirin water in a small container along with me, but the aspirin always ends up sublimating back into crystals again (very pretty snowflake ones, I must say) which are suspended in the water. When they do that, it seems like they are more likely to irritate the stomach, and the few times that I've gone ahead and ingested them like that, I have gotten some slight irritation that doesn't happen when they are fully dissolved. I cannot figure out any way around this situation other than to bring a small camp stove with me everywhere I go for boiling water, and that's obviously not always practical.

loess said:

I have made a considerable effort the past few weeks to be consistent with the small doses of coffee+aspirin+niacinamide throughout the day, and it has proven to be a pretty powerful tool to prevent the afternoon energy crash that I am accustomed to being prone to. I imagine there are also other uncoupling benefits that are not as pronounced. While I think it is wise to be careful with aspirin and its use must be supported by proper nutrition and vitamin intake, I seem to tolerate it much better than I used to.

So I was wondering how those of you who use the pure aspirin powder (the "animal aspirin") are able to incorporate that into your life when you are away from home or don't have the use of a stove? The only way that I can get it to dissolve is by bringing a small amount of water to a boil, tossing in the aspirin, and letting it simmer for a minute or two while agitating it to ensure that the crystals fully dissolve. That's fine when I'm at home and have the time and space to do that, but when I'm on the go I often have no way to boil water, and simply mixing hot water with the aspirin powder in a cup and stirring does not dissolve it.

I don't mind dissolving it ahead of time and taking that bit of aspirin water in a small container along with me, but the aspirin always ends up sublimating back into crystals again (very pretty snowflake ones, I must say) which are suspended in the water. When they do that, it seems like they are more likely to irritate the stomach, and the few times that I've gone ahead and ingested them like that, I have gotten some slight irritation that doesn't happen when they are fully dissolved. I cannot figure out any way around this situation other than to bring a small camp stove with me everywhere I go for boiling water, and that's obviously not always practical.

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Do you work in an office? If so, is there a water cooler/heater there? We recently ordered a water service so we could get pure water without the chlorine/fluoride and it has a hot water tank. The water comes out boiling enough that I think it would dissolve the aspirin without issue.

On a side note, this is really interesting about dissolving vs. not dissolving the powder. In general, I find the aspirin powder works better than the tablets - probably because it dissolves internally much easier. I will have to try dissolving it in my hot coffee!