Gut Bacteria Found To Be A Causal Factor In Obesity

haidut

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The part I find interesting is that the study claims that improved nutrient uptake caused by certain bacterial strains is actually causing obesity. Ray seems to imply the exact opposite - i.e. we want nutrient uptake to be as high as possible so that by the time the digested food reaches the colon it is devoid of nutrients and does not feed the bacteria producing endotoxin. Anybody has an opinion on this?

http://www.neomatica.com/2014/10/19/gut ... ight-gain/

"...Our results indicate that Clostridium ramosum improves nutrient uptake in the small intestine and thereby promotes obesity,” Professor Blaut added"
 
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They are approaching this from a geneticist's reductionist perspective, and ignoring the role of imprinting on the genes by metabolites.

For example, I think there is someone who has shown that transplanting undifferentiated fecal matter from a skinny person to a obese person makes the obese person lose weight (less serum endotoxin maybe, as j74 says?).

In Peat's recent newsletter (which I hope everyone subscribes to) he talks about parabiosis, which is the tranfusion of blood from a young healthy animal, to an old, sick animal (of the same species). The old, sick individual gets better, and lives the equivalent of 150 human years, if the transfusion is continuous.

The point is that the blood (or I suppose the fecal matter) if it is young and healthy can imprint its metabolites from one to another, without genetics getting in the way.

But look, we can do the same thing by altering our own blood or fecal matter simply by improving our own metabolites.

We don't need phony genetic research to do this. Or somebody else's fecal transplants.

It's simple and nearly free. Aspirin, coffee, fructose, Vitamins E, D, K. protective steroids, and niacinamide (haidut is my trusted source). Small frequent doses, to manage your blood plasma concentration for the optimal mitochondrial respiration. And you're good.

BTW, haidut, what is the half-life of caffeine in the blood plasma, do you happen to know? I see that, for Aspirin, Doses of 300 to 650 mg have a half-life of 3.1 to 3.2 hours.
http://tmedweb.tulane.edu/pharmwiki/dok ... _clearance

But I can't find caffeine?
 
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haidut

haidut

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visionofstrength said:
They are approaching this from a geneticist's reductionist perspective, and ignoring the role of imprinting on the genes by metabolites.

For example, I think there is someone who has shown that transplanting undifferentiated fecal matter from a skinny person to a obese person makes the obese person lose weight (less serum endotoxin maybe, as j74 says?).

In Peat's recent newsletter (which I hope everyone subscribes to) he talks about parabiosis, which is the tranfusion of blood from a young healthy animal, to an old, sick animal (of the same species). The old, sick individual gets better, and lives the equivalent of 150 human years, if the transfusion is continuous.

The point is that the blood (or I suppose the fecal matter) if it is young and healthy can imprint its metabolites from one to another, without genetics getting in the way.

But look, we can do the same thing by altering our own blood or fecal matter simply by improving our own metabolites.

We don't need phony genetic research to do this. Or somebody else's fecal transplants.

It's simple and nearly free. Aspirin, coffee, fructose, Vitamins E, D, K. protective steroids, and niacinamide (haidut is my trusted source). Small frequent doses, to manage your blood plasma concentration for the optimal mitochondrial respiration. And you're good.

BTW, haidut, what is the half-life of caffeine in the blood plasma, do you happen to know? I see that, for Aspirin, Doses of 300 to 650 mg have a half-life of 3.1 to 3.2 hours.
http://tmedweb.tulane.edu/pharmwiki/dok ... _clearance

But I can't find caffeine?

Caffeine can be a bit tricky since half-life is greatly affected by the dose and liver function. People with impaired liver function, which includes everybody with NAFLD (which is 50%+ of the population) can experience caffeine half-lives in excess of 24h. Obviously the dose also affects the half-life. Anything more then 600mg single dose will likely have 12h+ of half-life. Anyways, here are some studies to consider.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... rt=classic
"...Nonetheless, the mean plasma t1/2 of caffeine derived from the coffee enema or the orally consumed coffee (4.68 versus 4.87 h) did not significantly differ. Additionally, these values were also comparable to those of 2.5–5.7 h reported in other studies investigating the t1/2 of caffeine after oral administration [21, 34]. This similarity is a result of the fact that caffeine is eliminated by first-order kinetics. With first order elimination, the elimination rate constant is independent of plasma concentration and routes of administration."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1033273/
"...Comparison with a high pressure liquid chromatography method for the analysis of caffeine gave satisfactory results and showed no evidence for interference by metabolites. A caffeine half-life of 4.0 hours determined by the radioimmunoassay was in agreement with previous work. Comparison of human plasma and saliva levels by the radioimmunoassay procedure indicated approximately equal concentrations in the two fluids."

Since we started on this topic, sensitivity to caffeine reported by many people may actually be affected by liver function a lot more than availability of glycogen. People with good liver function will get into gluconeogenesis mode relatively quickly in the absense of glycogen and will not experience many of the negative side effects of caffein. On the other hand, people with sluggish livers can get jittery from as little as 50mg of caffeine even if taken with enough sugar/fat.
IMO, "tolerance" to caffeine is great proxy test for liver function. The higher dose of caffeine you can handle without getting the jitters and anxiety, the better your liver is working. It is also a feedback loop since the more caffeine you ingest the better your liver function becomes. So, my advice is to start with 100mg-200mg doses and work up from that. Once you reach 600mg dose, your liver is probably working better than the liver of a college student. You can test it by drinking alcohol and you will be amazed at how quickly you'll sober up if your liver is in good shape:):
Not that I am advising drinking alcohol on a regular basis.
 
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This was certainly true in my case. I had terrible gut problems, weight problems and a complete inability to handle any alcohol or too much caffeine. ALL of that has changed for the better. I fixed the gut dysbiosis/inflammation, lost a bunch of weight, NO longer have liver pain, can drink alcohol with no hangover and can drink plenty of coffee without feeling like I'm gonna die....kind of off topic, but I'm still so amazed at how this is all connected that I want to shout it from a mountain top! :)
 

narouz

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thebigpeatowski said:
This was certainly true in my case. I had terrible gut problems, weight problems and a complete inability to handle any alcohol or too much caffeine. ALL of that has changed for the better. I fixed the gut dysbiosis/inflammation, lost a bunch of weight, NO longer have liver pain, can drink alcohol with no hangover and can drink plenty of coffee without feeling like I'm gonna die....kind of off topic, but I'm still so amazed at how this is all connected that I want to shout it from a mountain top! :)

Great, peatowski!
Could you describe some of the main features of your gut recovery?
Like: did you use antibiotics, for example?
 

SQu

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I'm trying to drink more coffee - currently 1 + heaped tablespoon strong roast in plunger to make 300ml plus lots of fat free milk, sugar, but can't face more than 2 of these a day. No jitters but I can feel a bit 'off ', yesterday nauseous. Urine smells of coffee. Been going on for ages. Coincides often with setbacks. strongly suspect these episodes, setbacks very meaningful but other than knowing my liver is unhappy so far I often can't see why they happen so can't prevent them. Very interesting to hear you call caffeine tolerance a proxy test for liver, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
 
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narouz said:
thebigpeatowski said:
This was certainly true in my case. I had terrible gut problems, weight problems and a complete inability to handle any alcohol or too much caffeine. ALL of that has changed for the better. I fixed the gut dysbiosis/inflammation, lost a bunch of weight, NO longer have liver pain, can drink alcohol with no hangover and can drink plenty of coffee without feeling like I'm gonna die....kind of off topic, but I'm still so amazed at how this is all connected that I want to shout it from a mountain top! :)

Great, peatowski!
Could you describe some of the main features of your gut recovery?
Like: did you use antibiotics, for example?

Hi narouz, I did a week long protocol using raw organic garlic, which acts like a broad spectrum antibiotic and antifungal. Definitely NOT pleasant, nor Peat approved, but I was desperate. Other things I do to soothe intestines are drink organic grass-fed RAW whole A2 milk, avoid uncooked vegetables and keep starch to a minimum. I also take a small dose of cyproheptadine on occasion.
 

narouz

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thebigpeatowski said:
Hi narouz, I did a week long protocol using raw organic garlic, which acts like a broad spectrum antibiotic and antifungal. Definitely NOT pleasant, nor Peat approved, but I was desperate. Other things I do to soothe intestines are drink organic grass-fed RAW whole A2 milk, avoid uncooked vegetables and keep starch to a minimum. I also take a small dose of cyproheptadine on occasion.

Thanks, peatowski!
I did a lot of raw garlic years ago before Peat
and it didn't seem too hard on my gut,
and seemed to yield good results.
I also used oregano oil or olive leaf oil (can't exactly recall) too.

What is your experience with probiotics, kefir, yogurt, etc?
Ever use those?

Out of the blue question: did you/do you have tinnitus or backache?
 
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narouz said:
thebigpeatowski said:
Hi narouz, I did a week long protocol using raw organic garlic, which acts like a broad spectrum antibiotic and antifungal. Definitely NOT pleasant, nor Peat approved, but I was desperate. Other things I do to soothe intestines are drink organic grass-fed RAW whole A2 milk, avoid uncooked vegetables and keep starch to a minimum. I also take a small dose of cyproheptadine on occasion.

Thanks, peatowski!
I did a lot of raw garlic years ago before Peat
and it didn't seem too hard on my gut,
and seemed to yield good results.
I also used oregano oil or olive leaf oil (can't exactly recall) too.

What is your experience with probiotics, kefir, yogurt, etc?
Ever use those?

Out of the blue question: did you/do you have tinnitus or backache?

Yes, I tried the oregano oil and olive leaf too a couple of years ago, they did nothing permanent for me. Oregano oil burned all the way through, if you know what I mean.

I have used LOTS of probiotics in the past and also made my own home made kefir from the raw milk. I quit making the kefir when I read that RP said it might be bad for metabolism. I did take probiotics again to replenish gut flora following the raw garlic protocol, my theory was to fill in the vacated spaces with friendly strains. I had severe gut problems and so took some drastic measures. I no longer take probiotics, but I do eat Greek yogurt a couple times a week.

And YES, I suffered from tinnitus and chronic back pain (upper and lower back which was sometimes debilitating) for years. The tinnitus is gone, I still get low back pain on occasion, while mildly irritating, it's nothing like it used to be.
 

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@thebigpeatowski: can you send me the garlic protocol again? I want to give it a whirl when I have an off week and can do it without offending anyone with my stench ;) I recall you saying you ate the crushed garlic in water??? Did you eat anything else during that week?

Thank you much!!
 

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lindsay

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Charlie said:

Thank you charlie! I'm going to try this out this week. My digestion is fairly decent these days, since I recently had antibiotics. But before the effects can wear off, I want to bring in the garlic. But I was thinking about making an aioli to dip carrot sticks in, so it could be more pleasant and a double whammy. Taking garlic shots sounds more simple, however.
 

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Lindsay,

After trying adding garlic for one week you are going to have clues depeding on the reaction.
Symptoms of bacterial infections tend to manifestate and disappear quickly due to their rapid reproduction.
Fungal and parasites tend to be slower.
Garlic can make things worse if you have an overgrowth in the small intestine. It is highly fermetable.

I wouldn't consider following those diet targeted to starve gut microbes. The best approach (in my opinion) is to design a diet that will starve them (without fermentable carbohydrates) mildly. By doing this, you won't starve commensal microbes and deprive yourself of nutrients, at the same time you let your immune system take care of the rest.
Like BigPeatowski mentioned, it is very important to improve metabolism so you eliminate toxins in this process, instead of recirculate them.

Raw carrot in my opinion is a better option because it doesn't ferment that easy and it also grows in an environment that is similar to our gut: dark, moist and full of microorganisms trying to take advantage of it.

Tweak the carrot salad:
Grated carrots (without rinsing) with skin
Coconut Oil
ACV
Salt
Turmeric (ground)
Ginger (grated)
Dried herbs (such as Oregano or Rosemary)

If you took antibiotics recently, it can be a great thing to incorporate the juices of fermented foods like sauerkraut weekly or so in order to help restoring. Don't chew and dissolve it in water in order to help some of it pass the digestive juices and reach the intestines. Or at along with your bulkier meal of the day.
 

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Amazoniac said:
Lindsay,

After trying adding garlic for one week you are going to have clues depeding on the reaction.
Symptoms of bacterial infections tend to manifestate and disappear quickly due to their rapid reproduction.
Fungal and parasites tend to be slower.
Garlic can make things worse if you have an overgrowth in the small intestine. It is highly fermetable.

I wouldn't consider following those diet targeted to starve gut microbes. The best approach (in my opinion) is to design a diet that will starve them (without fermentable carbohydrates) mildly. By doing this, you won't starve commensal microbes and deprive yourself of nutrients, at the same time you let your immune system take care of the rest.
Like BigPeatowski mentioned, it is very important to improve metabolism so you eliminate toxins in this process, instead of recirculate them.

Raw carrot in my opinion is a better option because it doesn't ferment that easy and it also grows in an environment that is similar to our gut: dark, moist and full of microorganisms trying to take advantage of it.

Tweak the carrot salad:
Grated carrots (without rinsing) with skin
Coconut Oil
ACV
Salt
Turmeric (ground)
Ginger (grated)
Dried herbs (such as Oregano or Rosemary)

If you took antibiotics recently, it can be a great thing to incorporate the juices of fermented foods like sauerkraut weekly or so in order to help restoring. Don't chew and dissolve it in water in order to help some of it pass the digestive juices and reach the intestines. Or at along with your bulkier meal of the day.

Amazoniac: Thank you for your input. Fortunately, my digestion is not real bad currently - but that really depends on what I eat. I'm more or less looking to lower estrogen and the antibiotic I took did a better job than anything else I've used. I'm postmenopausal (but I'm hoping to reverse that, since I'm only 32), and I have started accumulating fat on my mid section. It is very unbecoming and it comes and goes depending on estrogen levels. I would like to force the estrogen out of my tissues and the antibiotic seemed to help with this, but doesn't last long.

Anyhow, I take thyroid, but am at a disadvantage with all this digestion stuff because I don't have a gallbladder. This leads to worse issues over time. In the past, I didn't find the carrot salad really helped much at all. I want something with more staying power and it seems garlic could be this solution. But I guess I should give the carrot a shot again..... Interestingly enough, when I was living in Russia, there was this really popular salad you'd find everywhere at the markets - it was called Korean Carrot Salad and it was a fermented carrot salad with raw garlic. I used to eat it from time to time.
 

narouz

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lindsay said:
Amazoniac said:
Lindsay,

After trying adding garlic for one week you are going to have clues depeding on the reaction.
Symptoms of bacterial infections tend to manifestate and disappear quickly due to their rapid reproduction.
Fungal and parasites tend to be slower.
Garlic can make things worse if you have an overgrowth in the small intestine. It is highly fermetable.

I wouldn't consider following those diet targeted to starve gut microbes. The best approach (in my opinion) is to design a diet that will starve them (without fermentable carbohydrates) mildly. By doing this, you won't starve commensal microbes and deprive yourself of nutrients, at the same time you let your immune system take care of the rest.
Like BigPeatowski mentioned, it is very important to improve metabolism so you eliminate toxins in this process, instead of recirculate them.

Raw carrot in my opinion is a better option because it doesn't ferment that easy and it also grows in an environment that is similar to our gut: dark, moist and full of microorganisms trying to take advantage of it.

Tweak the carrot salad:
Grated carrots (without rinsing) with skin
Coconut Oil
ACV
Salt
Turmeric (ground)
Ginger (grated)
Dried herbs (such as Oregano or Rosemary)

If you took antibiotics recently, it can be a great thing to incorporate the juices of fermented foods like sauerkraut weekly or so in order to help restoring. Don't chew and dissolve it in water in order to help some of it pass the digestive juices and reach the intestines. Or at along with your bulkier meal of the day.

Amazoniac: Thank you for your input. Fortunately, my digestion is not real bad currently - but that really depends on what I eat. I'm more or less looking to lower estrogen and the antibiotic I took did a better job than anything else I've used. I'm postmenopausal (but I'm hoping to reverse that, since I'm only 32), and I have started accumulating fat on my mid section. It is very unbecoming and it comes and goes depending on estrogen levels. I would like to force the estrogen out of my tissues and the antibiotic seemed to help with this, but doesn't last long.

Anyhow, I take thyroid, but am at a disadvantage with all this digestion stuff because I don't have a gallbladder. This leads to worse issues over time. In the past, I didn't find the carrot salad really helped much at all. I want something with more staying power and it seems garlic could be this solution. But I guess I should give the carrot a shot again..... Interestingly enough, when I was living in Russia, there was this really popular salad you'd find everywhere at the markets - it was called Korean Carrot Salad and it was a fermented carrot salad with raw garlic. I used to eat it from time to time.

Couple of thoughts:

-Peat doesn't like the "starve 'em out" strategy with intestinal bacteria.
He says that is when they are more dangerous,
needing to find food by burrowing in (and even through) the stomach lining.

-Peat has said that not many kinds of bacteria will survive regular carrot salad attack.
But he did concede there are a few that can.

I'm looking into this now after a long time fighting GI difficulties with standard Peat methods.
Took an "Ova & Parasites" test and an "H. pylori" test.
We'll see...

Even if one does short-term dosing with the Peatian antibiotics,
that likely would not work with the likes of H. pylori or various parasites
(and my suspicion is it could allow proliferation of bad bacteria like pylori).
I don't know about garlic and other natural remedies.
Seems to me that if one has overgrowth of h. pylori or tests positive for parasites,
then longer course antibiotic treatment
(perhaps with multiple antibiotics and maybe not strictly "Peat approved" ones)
or anti-parasite meds should be considered....
 

lindsay

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The thing that's interesting about raw garlic is that it is supposedly able to kill even antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. And it's cheap - I can buy it at Wholefoods and use it at home without consulting my doctor and spending a fortune on visits, tests and prescriptions.
 

narouz

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lindsay said:
The thing that's interesting about raw garlic is that it is supposedly able to kill even antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. And it's cheap - I can buy it at Wholefoods and use it at home without consulting my doctor and spending a fortune on visits, tests and prescriptions.

Yeah, I'll have to read up on that, lindsay.
I have used a lot of raw garlic in the past,
and it doesn't bother me--the ingestion or the effects on my stomach.
I don't know how it would do against h. pylori or parasites.

I haven't tried it recently.
Last time was several years ago
when I tried it for an apparent tooth infection....
 

tara

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narouz said:
-Peat doesn't like the "starve 'em out" strategy with intestinal bacteria.
He says that is when they are more dangerous,
needing to find food by burrowing in (and even through) the stomach lining.
I think he has said this about yeasts/fungi, not bacteria. (Garlic is antifungal as well as antibacterial.) He does suggest reducing or eliminating starches when people have bad bacteria - this is about reducing food for them to diminish their numbers.

narouz said:
-Peat has said that not many kinds of bacteria will survive regular carrot salad attack.
But he did concede there are a few that can.
I don't think he has ever claimed it wipes them all out, just reduces the numbers, maybe some more than others. Part of its action is mechanical.

narouz said:
I'm looking into this now after a long time fighting GI difficulties with standard Peat methods.
Took an "Ova & Parasites" test and an "H. pylori" test.
We'll see...
I've read tht it's ard to test for all kinds of parasites in all stages. Not sure that a negative on this would be reliable.

narouz said:
Even if one does short-term dosing with the Peatian antibiotics,
that likely would not work with the likes of H. pylori or various parasites
(and my suspicion is it could allow proliferation of bad bacteria like pylori).
I don't know about garlic and other natural remedies.
Seems to me that if one has overgrowth of h. pylori or tests positive for parasites,
then longer course antibiotic treatment
(perhaps with multiple antibiotics and maybe not strictly "Peat approved" ones)
or anti-parasite meds should be considered....
I think active manuka honey is touted as being helpful against H. pylori. I don't know about garlic. I think parasites require targetted anti-parasite approaches, rather than anti-biotics. Flowers of sulphur has been suggested for parasites and I think fungi.
 

lindsay

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I found this page pretty helpful in finding things that could be potentially beneficial for gut issues:

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/ul ... eanse.html

But I would want to do more research before utilizing any of the herbs. Still, the author mentions a few beneficial things that are already considered safe in this community - such as Coconut Oil.

I'm curious if anyone on here has any experience with using Olive Leaf for gut issues? In the past, I've found that eating olives and salads with lots of Olive oil had a very beneficial effect on the gut, but not sure why.....

Any thoughts much appreciated!
 

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