Feeling Cold, Insomnia, Optimal Hormone Levels?

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

I've been very low on several hormones over last couple years.

I was on TRT but quit since I didn't feel any difference even though my numbers were up.

Thankfully my Testosterone seems to be coming back without TRT as I have been using DHEA, Progesterone and Pregnenalone.

I'm also on 2 Grains of Dessicated thyroid

My cortisol is also pretty low.

I'm looking for a reputable source that gives optimal numbers for the following hormones - Testosterone, DHEA, and Progesterone.

I've found a couple of sources that say something like "within 10% of the top of the range" for Progesterone. Unfortunately my lab doesn't give a reference range for progesterone for some reason.

Thanks for your input

tara · Nov 20, 2014

Welcome firebreather. :welcome

I don't know the ideal range numbers - hopefully someone else will. For progesterone levels, the ratio to estrogen is significant, not just the absolute value.

If you want other ideas on how to address low hormone levels, you could give us more info about your context - eg what and how much are you eating and what else you are doing.
Amongst other factors, you need high enough cholesterol levels and a diet that provides enough protein, sat fat, carbohydrates, and micronutrients to make those hormones.

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

Tara, thank you so much for replying.

I don't know what the exact number is on Estradiol but it says that it should be less than 39 pg/ml and my result is less than 15 pg/ml so it looks like it's not terrible.

My cholesterol used to be pretty high (mid 300s) until I got on thyroid meds, now it's down to the mid 200s.

I'm a firefighter and used to be really into fitness.

I've backed waaaaay off the fitness though as I was faithfully doing crossfit pretty hard along with eating paleo (probably 1900 cal/day) and dealing with sleep deprivation.

My sleep went to hell about 2 years ago but has gotten a little better since.

I still wake up to go to the bathroom at least once per night. It's often hard for me to get back to sleep and after 3:30am and even if I do I'm in and out.

I recently started implying some of Matt Stones ideas for eating more food.

Over the past week I've probably been around 3500 to 4000 cal per day

Before that it was probably more like 2000 cal per day but with very little fitness.

When testosterone was at it's lowest it was 277 and I got on Cypionate but quit after 6 months because even though my total number and free went up nicely I didn't feel any different.

Last time I had it checked (after being off cypionate for about 4 months) it was 502.

My progesterone came back to 89 from 13 but my DHEA is still hanging lower around 90.

Hope that's not too much info.

I probably left some stuff out.

I'm really trying to address the sleep issues. A year ago I moved from our busiest fire station to our slowest and that has helped somewhat.

One more thing I almost forgot - temperature.

I often feel cold and the 2 grains of thyroid hasn't really made a difference.

Since I've started eating a lot more I started taking my temp again before getting out of bed and at night.

Morning has been around 96.8 and night has been around 97.8 (under the tongue)

tara said:
Welcome firebreather.

I don't know the ideal range numbers - hopefully someone else will. For progesterone levels, the ratio to estrogen is significant, not just the absolute value.

If you want other ideas on how to address low hormone levels, you could give us more info about your context - eg what and how much are you eating and what else you are doing.
Amongst other factors, you need high enough cholesterol levels and a diet that provides enough protein, sat fat, carbohydrates, and micronutrients to make those hormones.

Blossom · Nov 20, 2014

Welcome firebreather! :welcome2

It sounds like you've come a long way already! Congratulations. I'm not sure if you've tried a sugary/salty snack when you wake up during the night yet but that often helps people get back to sleep.

tara · Nov 20, 2014

firebreather said:
I don't know what the exact number is on Estradiol but it says that it should be less than 39 pg/ml and my result is less than 15 pg/ml so it looks like it's not terrible.

Hopefully someone else can interpret this.

firebreather said:
My cholesterol used to be pretty high (mid 300s) until I got on thyroid meds, now it's down to the mid 200s.

Mid 200s is likely enough - Peat says at least 200 is good. Low thyroid function likely explains previous high cholesterol.

firebreather said:
I'm a firefighter and used to be really into fitness.

I've backed waaaaay off the fitness though as I was faithfully doing crossfit pretty hard along with eating paleo (probably 1900 cal/day) and dealing with sleep deprivation.

Looks like a likely cause of the problems. 1900 cal is very low, especially for an active male. Both low food intake and extreme exercise can take a toll on thyroid function, cause a lot of stress, and wear down the body.

firebreather said:
My sleep went to hell about 2 years ago but has gotten a little better since.

I still wake up to go to the bathroom at least once per night. It's often hard for me to get back to sleep and after 3:30am and even if I do I'm in and out.

Not surprising - low glycogen storage from low calories, probably too low carbs, and maybe liver struggling with stress, then stress hormones (adrenaline, cortisol) rising to keep sugar available through the night. Seems to wake a lot of people up.
More sugar through day and evening can help restore glycogen stores to help get you through the night. Eg milk with honey before bed. Sometimes salt helps too.
Up until recently, I was having to snack during the night sometimes to get back to sleep.

firebreather said:
I recently started implying some of Matt Stones ideas for eating more food.

Over the past week I've probably been around 3500 to 4000 cal per day

Before that it was probably more like 2000 cal per day but with very little fitness.

Are you noticing changes from this? I've read some of Stone's writing. He differs from Peat in some areas, I think, and is consistent in others. Peat would emphasise at least 80-100g protein for hypothyroid adults, and many need more. Minimise PUFA. Peat is not as keen on bread and grains in general as Stone is; he tends to favour sweet fruit over starchy foods, though he recognises value in potatoes. You can check a typical day's diet in cronometer to see whether you meet RDAs of micronutrients. Peat prefers lower in iron, low as poss PUFAs, and calcium higher than phosphorus. Try to avoid irritating gut. Raw carrot salad on an empty stomach can help remove estrogen excreted in bile, and endotoxin from gut, which reduces the load on the liver, which gives it a better chance at regulating hormones and storing glycogen.

firebreather said:
When testosterone was at it's lowest it was 277 and I got on Cypionate but quit after 6 months because even though my total number and free went up nicely I didn't feel any different.

I'm not up with testorsterone levels, but lack of energy from low thryroid function and low fuel supply can knock the stuffing out of people. It might bounce back now you are starting to restore yourself.

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

Thank you, I'll have some pretzels with peanut butter by my bed tonight and give it a shot

Blossom said:
Welcome firebreather! It sounds like you've come a long way already! Congratulations. I'm not sure if you've tried a sugary/salty snack when you wake up during the night yet but that often helps people get back to sleep.

tara · Nov 20, 2014

firebreather said:
Thank you, I'll have some pretzels with peanut butter by my bed tonight and give it a shot

Blossom said:

Welcome firebreather! It sounds like you've come a long way already! Congratulations. I'm not sure if you've tried a sugary/salty snack when you wake up during the night yet but that often helps people get back to sleep.

Click to expand...

Peanut butter oil is high PUFA, so if you can find something else to have with your pretzels it would probably serve you better. Cheese/honey/jam?
I keep dates by the bed - don't even have to open my eyes to eat.

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

tara said:
Are you noticing changes from this? I've read some of Stone's writing. He differs from Peat in some areas, I think, and is consistent in others. Peat would emphasise at least 80-100g protein for hypothyroid adults, and many need more. Minimise PUFA. Peat is not as keen on bread and grains in general as Stone is; he tends to favour sweet fruit over starchy foods, though he recognises value in potatoes. You can check a typical day's diet in cronometer to see whether you meet RDAs of micronutrients. Peat prefers lower in iron, low as poss PUFAs, and calcium higher than phosphorus. Try to avoid irritating gut. Raw carrot salad on an empty stomach can help remove estrogen excreted in bile, and endotoxin from gut, which reduces the load on the liver, which gives it a better chance at regulating hormones and storing glycogen.

Changes - I think I might be feeling a little bit warmer. I think I need to back off the dairy (even though I love it) as it seems to lend to constipation for me and my bowel movements are already not great.

I would say I have been getting at least 100g of protein per day.

You mentioned checking a typical day's diet in cronometer. What's cronometer?

I'll give the raw carrot salad a shot tomorrow morning.

Thank you for all your input

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

tara said:
firebreather said:

Thank you, I'll have some pretzels with peanut butter by my bed tonight and give it a shot

Blossom said:

Welcome firebreather! It sounds like you've come a long way already! Congratulations. I'm not sure if you've tried a sugary/salty snack when you wake up during the night yet but that often helps people get back to sleep.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Peanut butter oil is high PUFA, so if you can find something else to have with your pretzels it would probably serve you better. Cheese/honey/jam?
I keep dates by the bed - don't even have to open my eyes to eat.

Ah, that's right.

I'll try a couple dates with cheese then

tara · Nov 20, 2014

firebreather said:
You mentioned checking a typical day's diet in cronometer. What's cronometer?
...
I'll give the raw carrot salad a shot tomorrow morning.

cronometer dot com
Probably good to eat something sustaining in the morning - eg juice to get the night time stress hormones down, protein, etc.
Carrot salad as a between meal snack works for a lot of people.

firebreather · Nov 20, 2014

Night time stress hormones?

Are you talking about cortisol?

Mine is already slightly below the reference range

tara said:
firebreather said:

You mentioned checking a typical day's diet in cronometer. What's cronometer?
...
I'll give the raw carrot salad a shot tomorrow morning.

Click to expand...

cronometer dot com
Probably good to eat something sustaining in the morning - eg juice to get the night time stress hormones down, protein, etc.
Carrot salad as a between meal snack works for a lot of people.

Zachs · Nov 20, 2014

Since you are coming off of a high meat diet (paleo) i would suggest consuming animal flesh no more than once per day, meat can really cause stress hormones to rise and blunt thyroid function. Switch it with dairy, gelatin and more sugar sources. A few eggs a day as well. Basically up the carb content by quite a bit, lower fat and animal protein content, get most of your protein from low fat sources and gelatin and keep thst fat you do eat, mostly saturated.

Definitely have a sugary, salty snack before bed and again when you wake up. Even a pinch of salt and a tbs of sugar under the tongue can help a lot.

BingDing · Nov 20, 2014

Welcome to the forum, firebreather. I got lab work done at two different places this summer, I'll give you what they say.

Testosterone, total 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, free 35.0-155.0 pg/mL

Testosterone, serum, doesn't say anything more but must be total 348-1197 ng/dL

DHEA sulfate 48.9-344.2 ug/dL
80-560 ug/dL

Progesterone, male 19-50 years 0.1-0.8 ng/mL

You are on the right track, it seems that there are a lot of adjustments as one thing gets better, then other things need attention, and on and on. But health is its own reward, so it's worth the effort.

Don't forget about vitamins and minerals, they are as important as the macros.

firebreather · Nov 21, 2014

Thank u for the info

Vitamins and minerals - my kitchen cabinet looks like a natural pharmacy. I just hope it's not a waste

BingDing said:
Welcome to the forum, firebreather. I got lab work done at two different places this summer, I'll give you what they say.

Testosterone, total 250-1100 ng/dL
Testosterone, free 35.0-155.0 pg/mL

Testosterone, serum, doesn't say anything more but must be total 348-1197 ng/dL

DHEA sulfate 48.9-344.2 ug/dL
80-560 ug/dL

Progesterone, male 19-50 years 0.1-0.8 ng/mL

You are on the right track, it seems that there are a lot of adjustments as one thing gets better, then other things need attention, and on and on. But health is its own reward, so it's worth the effort.

Don't forget about vitamins and minerals, they are as important as the macros.

firebreather · Nov 21, 2014

Thank you for these great ideas.

I love dairy but it constipates me and gives me congestion - even raw. I can do a little but does Ray give any alternatives for those who struggle with this?

Zachs said:
Since you are coming off of a high meat diet (paleo) i would suggest consuming animal flesh no more than once per day, meat can really cause stress hormones to rise and blunt thyroid function. Switch it with dairy, gelatin and more sugar sources. A few eggs a day as well. Basically up the carb content by quite a bit, lower fat and animal protein content, get most of your protein from low fat sources and gelatin and keep thst fat you do eat, mostly saturated.

Definitely have a sugary, salty snack before bed and again when you wake up. Even a pinch of salt and a tbs of sugar under the tongue can help a lot.

BingDing · Nov 21, 2014

firebreather said:
Vitamins and minerals - my kitchen cabinet looks like a natural pharmacy. I just hope it's not a waste

LOL, mine too. I quit thinking about all the ones I've thrown away.

I forgot to say that it might be worth trying different brands of dessicated thyroid. RP has criticized the whole industry for being inconsistent in what is actually in any particular pill. Also, N Acetyl Cysteine and any form of L-Carnosine inhibit the conversion of T4->T3, if you are using them. I take 12.5 mcg of T3 when I use either, which seems to help.

firebreather · Nov 21, 2014

I've tried 2 different kinds with no change and my temp is still pretty low.

I've thought about trying only T3 to see if that helps.

I don't take either of those supplements but I will keep that in mind

BingDing said:
firebreather said:

Vitamins and minerals - my kitchen cabinet looks like a natural pharmacy. I just hope it's not a waste

Click to expand...

LOL, mine too. I quit thinking about all the ones I've thrown away.

I forgot to say that it might be worth trying different brands of dessicated thyroid. RP has criticized the whole industry for being inconsistent in what is actually in any particular pill. Also, N Acetyl Cysteine and any form of L-Carnosine inhibit the conversion of T4->T3, if you are using them. I take 12.5 mcg of T3 when I use either, which seems to help.

Zachs · Nov 21, 2014

Does all dairy do the same? Have you tried a loctose free milk or yogurt/kefir? What about cheese? It might be worth experimenting with different kinds to see if it is a milk allergy or an intolerance to something (lactose, casein, whey, etc). Rp reccomends small amount of dairy daily with a good amount of added sugars to help facilitate the digestion and get your digestive system used to dairy.

If not, seafood is a good alternative. Shrimp, crab, lobster, oysters. They are high in protein, low in fat and loaded with minerals. You would still want to balance them with a glycine rich source like bone broth, gelatinous cuts of beef/fish/lamb, gelatine or just a glycine supplement.

firebreather · Nov 21, 2014

I've never even considered lactose free milk. I didn't think it would make a difference with congestion since everything I've read is that lactose is mostly a digestion issue.

Yogurt seems to also cause congestion. Kefir? I haven't drank enough in a day to even notice a difference I don't think.

Cheese does seem to have the same affects.

It's been this way ever since I can remember so I'm not sure if introducing it slowly will make a difference as I used to have plenty of dairy when I was a kid.

How much dairy does RP recommend in a given day?

Zachs said:
Does all dairy do the same? Have you tried a loctose free milk or yogurt/kefir? What about cheese? It might be worth experimenting with different kinds to see if it is a milk allergy or an intolerance to something (lactose, casein, whey, etc). Rp reccomends small amount of dairy daily with a good amount of added sugars to help facilitate the digestion and get your digestive system used to dairy.

If not, seafood is a good alternative. Shrimp, crab, lobster, oysters. They are high in protein, low in fat and loaded with minerals. You would still want to balance them with a glycine rich source like bone broth, gelatinous cuts of beef/fish/lamb, gelatine or just a glycine supplement.

Zachs · Nov 21, 2014

I think around 2 quarts of milk and a few ounces of cheese. A lot of people eat cottage cheese or yogurt instead of milk because pasteurized milk seems to cause the most issues.

If you get congestion with raw then maybe try some fermented dairy instead and see what happens. If cheese gives you issues than it might be a casein allergy and that kind of puts all dairy suspect but keeping small amounts in your diet for several months might alleviate it.

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