PUFA Detox

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Based on 600 days half-life:

Day 0: 100%
Day 600 (1.6 years): 50%
Day 1200 (3.2 years): 25%
Day 1800 (4.9 years): 12.5%
Day 2400 (6.5 years): 6.25%
Day 3000 (8.2 years): 3.12%
Day 3600 (9.8 years): 1.56%
Day 4200 (11.5 years): .78%
Day 4800 (13.1 Years): .39%
Day 5400 (14.7 years): .19%
Day 6000 (16.4 years) .095%
Day 6600 (18 years) .047%
Day 7200 (19.7 years) .023%
Day 7800 (21.37 years) .011%
Day 8400 (23 years) .0055%
 

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
kettlebell said:
Thats why things like aspirin, vitamin E etc can be so important (If used correctly) potentially for many years while the body slowly gets rid of the PUFA. Those plus everything else Peat all go a long way to stopping the inflammation/suppression while you get rid of the PUFA so how long it takes becomes to an extent irrelevant as you are hindering the inflammation/suppression.

Thanks for the "half-life" clarifications, kettlebell.
On the aspirin and vitamin E and niacinamide:
I do those pretty regularly,
but I don't think I heard specific dosage recommendations from Peat.
Have you?
Or: what dosages of those do you use?

j.- I think I've heard Peat speak in terms of 4 years (or 2 years half-life);
I haven't ever seen the 400 days thing.
It may be that the 4 years approximation is just internet parlance, simplification.
I do think I've heard Peat use such approximate language himself, though.
 

kettlebell

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
417
Location
UK
I think that in relation to Aspirin, dose will differ dramatically from person to person. I currently use 2gm per day, have the tablets disolved in warm water over 3 meals. No negative side effects. I don't even take a K supplement due to the quantity of milk I drink and cheese I eat each day, I don't think I need to.

In the Serotonin and Endotoxin interview (Josh Rubin) Ray says Aspirin fills in for Thyroid, Pregnenolone, progesterone Vitamin E, Magnesium, potassium, sodium, CO2 (He did mention others but I cant remember them). In my mind that makes it an integral part of my strategy as it gives me a shotgun approach to fill any gaps I may have without realising it, its my safeguard. I seem to tolerate it very well so will continue with that amount for now.

In another interview a man calls in who's friend has HIV and he asks if 15 aspirin a day is right, Rays response was "Yes, about that" as in, about that amount. Thats 4.5gm a day at least.

Amounts vary, and its well worth finding what suits you personally. I know someone who eats peat who was doing, I believe, 6gm a day for a while whilst he was in the early stages. He must have been using vit K and with that amount it would probably be essential. I personally would never go that high unless I had cancer but with that sort of dosage you need to know exactly what you are doing (This guy is extremely switched on).

So in summary, used correctly I believe you can safely use relatively high doses of aspirin but that dosage will vary quite dramatically from person to person. I saw Danny Roddy post on FB the other day that he does 1gm a day and if he does too much more that that he gets ringing in his ears. I believe that suggests he doesn't need more than that as any more isn't being used, and toxicity occurs. The fact that I am fine on 1.8gm a day says to me that im using all of it, so no toxicity.

When I next get some K2 I am considering upping Aspirin to 3gm for a short time to see if I reach a limit with any symptoms of toxicity. I was using 3gm a day for a short time and had no ill effects, but it was over a short time.
Testing to see where I find symptoms of toxicity sounds irresponsible but as long as I back off immediately I don't believe I will have any ill effects and I will know that anything below that limit is being used appropriately.

Reading Peats articles about Aspirin, and hearing him talk about it in interviews makes me believe it is a very powerful tool in healing the metabolism and I want to use the maximum amount where it is all being put to use but no more.

As we have seen in other threads, the use of Aspirin cannot be taken lightly but I am a big fan.

I have heard Ray say that when your PUFA intake is very low vitamin E becomes much less important but he did say in one of his interviews that when going out, 100iu is enough to mitigate most of the damaging effects of a restaurant meal (The way he spoke made it clear he considered that a large amount). Many here use Unique-E 400iu a day, something I now consider a waste because it stays in your system for a long time remaining available for use and if you aren't using it there is no point taking that much. Im currently using 400iu twice a week but will have 400iu before going out to eat. Unique-E on the pot says you can use up to 3 a day I think, 1200iu, but they want you to come back to buy another pot of Unique-E sooner rather than later.

I can't remember what Peat said about Niacinamide but I have heard others talk about 500-1000mg per day being ok. Considering generally the tablets are 500mg that sounds reasonable to me but don't quote me on that.
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Great post KB!
 

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Yes, great post, kettlebell!
Thanks.

One thing on the role of E.
It seems you're conceiving of it mainly as blocker or mitigater
of PUFA which is being immediately consumed.
I think I have not been as mindful of that role
(which it seems is real as backed up by Peat's quotes about restaurant eating)
as I should have been.
Instead, I was thinking of E as more of a thing
that kept stored PUFA from being released into the bloodstream
thence to wreak havoc....

Do you understand E as having both of those functions?

I guess I should add that I'm a tad wary of going too far with the
Vitamin E as Blocker of Consumed PUFA idea.
Maybe because it sounds too good to be true...?
I mean, if one see it that way,
why not have a daily PUFA binge--
all negated by a walloping dose of Vitamin E beforehand.
Avocadoes and Pork Butt Roast here I come!

How do you see that wrinkle?
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,783
Location
UK
@kettlebell: Those are large amount of aspirin...I thought that it wasn't practical for more than a few days as it might trigger the ringing ear thing.

When would such doses be recommended? I'd be more motivated to test larger amounts if I know it has more than a temporary effect.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
I got ear ringing on 3 aspirin a day which is about 1 gram, and have very faint ringing on even actually just 1 aspirin. Aspirin seems to greatly increase my energy.

Great info on the vitamin E. I was thinking coconut oil would be the best way to block a restaurant meal, but the E thing makes sense. Also great info about the dosage. Will have to buy some.
 

kettlebell

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
417
Location
UK
narouz said:
Yes, great post, kettlebell!
Thanks.

One thing on the role of E.
It seems you're conceiving of it mainly as blocker or mitigater
of PUFA which is being immediately consumed.
I think I have not been as mindful of that role
(which it seems is real as backed up by Peat's quotes about restaurant eating)
as I should have been.
Instead, I was thinking of E as more of a thing
that kept stored PUFA from being released into the bloodstream
thence to wreak havoc....

Do you understand E as having both of those functions?

I guess I should add that I'm a tad wary of going too far with the
Vitamin E as Blocker of Consumed PUFA idea.
Maybe because it sounds too good to be true...?
I mean, if one see it that way,
why not have a daily PUFA binge--
all negated by a walloping dose of Vitamin E beforehand.
Avocadoes and Pork Butt Roast here I come!

How do you see that wrinkle?

Thanks Charlie and Narouz!

Yes Vitamin E does have both functions. It acts in the intestine and at the cell. As we have all heard Peat say its not just an anti oxidant, its an Estrogen antagonist. I blocks and reverses many of the negative effects of estrogen in the body.

I agree that you shouldn't see having a dose of vitamin E as an excuse for a PUFA binge. It does enable some of the bacteria in our gut to convert it to saturated fats before it is absorbed but not all of it will be converted if you "Binge" before the absorbtion BUT if you have absorbed some of the vitamin E into the blood stream it gives a secondary line of defence by mitigating/reversing/blocking many of the negative effects of the PUFA until it is disposed of from the body. Several lines of defense. Always best to not need to use it as a defense as inevitably some, even if its only a little damage will be done.

Vitamin E had been found to improve fertility of both male and female animals, and to prevent intrauterine death of the embryo or fetus, so it was called the "antisterility vitamin." Using it to prevent women from having miscarriages must have occurred to many people.

Animal research in the 1930s was also showing that estrogen had many toxic effects, including causing infertility or intrauterine death, connective tissue abnormalities, and excessive blood clotting. Dr. Shute and his sons, Wilfred and Evan, were among those who considered vitamin E to be an antiestrogen. They found that it was very effective in preventing the clotting diseases of pregnancy.

Other researchers, who knew that progesterone protected against the toxic effects of estrogen, described vitamin E as the "progesterone-sparing agent," since so many of its antiestrogenic effects resembled those of progesterone.

The Shute brothers began using vitamin E to treat circulatory diseases in general, rather than just in pregnant women--blood clots, phlebitis, hypertension, heart disease, and diabetes all responded well to treatment with large doses. - Ray Peat - Vitamin E: Estrogen antagonist, energy promoter, and anti-inflammatory


Hi jyb,

Well, no symptoms or ill effects here.

I recommend that dose for me as the fact that I am showing no symptoms of toxicity coupled with the calming effect it has on me, the reduced inflammation and very obvious reduced stress I feel means that my body is using the whole lot of that larger dose, utilising it effectively and not just leaving it in the blood stream to build up and become toxic.
See how Gretchen mentions that one aspirin causes toxicity symptoms. If that were me I would interpret that as "I clearly don't need it, otherwise my body would use it and I would'nt have toxicity" so I would either not use it at all or only use 25-50mg a day. If thats all your body can use so be it.

When would such doses be recommended? I'd be more motivated to test larger amounts if I know it has more than a temporary effect.

As always its individual. If you are decreasing negative symptoms of stress, inflammation and increasing positive symptoms of calmness, higher metabolic rate, warmer hands and feet etc whilst having no reactions to the aspirin, like Bleeding, gut discomfort etc as I have seen in other threads why wouldn't you take a higher dose?

A higher dose works for me and when I take less the benefits are lessened. Every nutrient we consume only has a temporary effect so that why I spread the dosage over the 3 main meals of the day.

Im not recommending to others a higher dosage. It just happens a high dosage gives me clear increased benefits over a small dose of say one tablet a day. As I said earlier, my body is using it, therefore it needs it to cover something I might be missing, so I will continue with higher dosages.

Its well worth re reading Peats article on Aspirin. I read it often. Its well worth finding the dosage that works for you, that might be only 25mg a day without toxicity but for me its quite possibly 3gm a day without toxicity.
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Another awesome post KB. :rockout
 

PeatFeat

Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
59

Wilfrid

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
Back to the niacinamide dosage,

I read somewhere that Ray says 100mg twice or three times a day would be ok.
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Thanks Andrew!
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,783
Location
UK
PeatFeat said:
narouz said:
Here is that cool bit supplied by nwo2012 I mentioned above:

nwo2012 said:
I asked Ray a while back about this. His answer says all I needed to know.

RP
Thyroid and sugar help the liver to detoxify them by glucuronidation, without having to oxidize them.

I have read that aspirin is an inhibitor of Glucuronidation:

http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html (it's about halfway down)

Interesting comment. Anyone here can comment or explain why this is inhibition by aspirin is not a problem (I assume its not)?
 

kettlebell

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
417
Location
UK
I took a look at that site and it doesn't seem to site any references. I am certain this is something Mr Peat would have addressed if there was an issue. Especially as Ray has said many times "Thyroid, Sugar, Vitamin E and Aspirin all work in the same direction" I may be wrong and if I am apologies for dismissing the information.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
jyb said:
PeatFeat said:
narouz said:
Here is that cool bit supplied by nwo2012 I mentioned above:

nwo2012 said:
I asked Ray a while back about this. His answer says all I needed to know.

RP
Thyroid and sugar help the liver to detoxify them by glucuronidation, without having to oxidize them.

I have read that aspirin is an inhibitor of Glucuronidation:

http://tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html (it's about halfway down)

Interesting comment. Anyone here can comment or explain why this is inhibition by aspirin is not a problem (I assume its not)?

Because it inhibits the release of PUFA which is the real cause of the liver being unable to detoxify. The article was filled with a lot of mumbo jumbo, it seems. :? Grapefruit is estrogenic irregardless of its ability to detoxify the liver, etc.
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,783
Location
UK
1) Are heavy metals (iron, aluminum, nickel - contained in many foods and cooking utensils) detoxified in the same way? RP says these toxic metals can accumulate in the brain.

I just realized that my coffee machine is in aluminum. I wish I'd read RP's article on Iron in full, as he mentioned this utensil specifically.

2) How does tissue heal once mitochondria have been damaged (pufa or heavy metals)? Does it heal due to new cells being healthy when Peating and the old damaged ones dying?
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
Does PUFA damage the immune system? I know it's pro-inflammatory and anti-metabolic. I'm sick again and too tired to look it up. Did releasing PUFA from fat stores lower my immunity? Or is it because of avoiding sunlight eg vit D deficiency? I'd rather not start a thread on the common cold.....
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Ray Peat said:
Unsaturated oils, especially polyunsaturates, weaken the immune system's function in ways that are similar to the damage caused by radiation, hormone imbalance, cancer, aging, or viral infections.

Ray Peat said:
All systems of the body are harmed by an excess of these oils. There are three main kinds of damage: one, hormonal imbalances, two, damage to the immune system, and three, oxidative damage.

Ray Peat said:
Vegetable oil is recognized as a drug for knocking out the immune system. Vegetable oil emulsions were used to nourish cancer patients, but it was discovered that the unsaturated oils were suppressing their immune systems. The same products, in which vegetable oil is emulsified with water for intravenous injection, are now marketed specifically for the purpose of suppressing immunity in patients who have had organ transplants. Using the oils in foods has the same harmful effect on the immune system. [E. A. Mascioli, et al.,Lipids 22(6) 421, 1987.] Unsaturated fats directly kill white blood cells. [C. J. Meade and J. Martin, Adv. Lipid Res., 127, 1978.]

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=317&p=895&hilit=immune+system#p895
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom