PUFA Detox

charlie

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Birdie

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narouz said:
Here is that cool bit supplied by nwo2012 I mentioned above:

nwo2012 said:
I asked Ray a while back about this. His answer says all I needed to know.

RP
Thyroid and sugar help the liver to detoxify them by glucuronidation, without having to oxidize them.
Yes, big key!!

So, as long as we are doing the things necessary to prevent release of the PUFAs (thyroid, sugar, niacinamide, aspirin and all) we won't be oxidizing them. This is very exciting once you get into it. :)

I'm tired from doing accounting, so I hope I'm writing with some clarity.

Just saw yours, Charlie and will check Andrew's latest. Haven't checked over there in a while!! Thanks for link.
 
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Birdie

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Charlie said:
Andrew Kims latest blog is relevant to this thread:

http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2012/12/po ... g-and.html
Thanks, Charlie. It has me talking to the screen.

A bit on starch vs fruit from the article:
The ingestion of glucose or starch induces oxidative stress in humans, producing optimal conditions for PUFA peroxidation (ultimately into the same α-oxoaldehydes as glucose). Fruit and fructose, however, do not and affords protection from starch or glucose induced stresses to some degree.
 

charlie

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Hopefully talking in a good way? I have only got a chance to scan it over quickly but have not had the chance to get into it yet. My brain needs a break.

Fruit and fructose for the win!
 

Andrew Kim

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Birdie, the rate at which PUFA are released from adipose tissue is now on my queue of blog posts to write. Thanks.
 

charlie

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:partydance
 

gretchen

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I wonder what my health will be like after the detox is over. Aspirin & lots of coconut oil seems to help.
 

jyb

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Birdie said:
jyb said:
Birdie said:
From Rob at functionalps:


“‎The larger the quantity of “toxic fat” stored in the body, the more careful the person must be about increasing metabolic and physical activity. Using more vitamin E, short-chain saturated fats, and other anti-lipid-peroxidation agents is important.” Ray Peat

So, RP says it takes 4 years when is storage is high. But what about thin people? I'm hypo yet have always been slim, no matter how much and how bad I eat.
I figure to do it all for 2 years. Then you'd be down to half of your starting pufa. I was off grains for many years and stopped seed oils years ago, but I continued DHA in big doses.
But I have a chronic condition that I want to improve. Makes me motivated. Fortunately, I've been on NDT for 15+ years, but still... I'm on the slim side too, but that is not no matter how much I eat. :lol:

So you think that even though you are thin, some PUFA are stored and it will take 2 years...is that a guess or you have evidence?
 

narouz

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I think I've heard speak about PUFA storage in the body in terms of "half-life."
Being very stupid about science, I have only a dim understanding of what that means.
I've heard it applied to radioactive isotopes,
but that would seem like a different kind of measurement...?

In any case, Peat, I think, has said that the half-life of PUFA stored in our bodies is about 2 years.
So, I think that means that the full-life would be four years
(I don't know why the half-life thing is worth bothering with :oops: ).
4 years for most of the oil stored in your body to turn over is what I've heard,
without the fancypants scientific half-life terminology. ;)

And Peat has said that is variable, person-to-person,
based upon how much fat you have stored,
how much of that fat is PUFA,
and how efficiently your metabolism is running
(and thereby removing PUFA through chelation by way of the liver).
 
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Birdie

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Charlie said:
Hopefully talking in a good way? I have only got a chance to scan it over quickly but have not had the chance to get into it yet. My brain needs a break.

Fruit and fructose for the win!
Haha, Charlie... Yes, definitely in a good way. And I did some catching up on Andrew's other articles. :)
 

charlie

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Andrew is pretty darn awesome. :rockout

Thanks Andrew for all the insight you are providing to the Ray Peat community. :clap
 
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Birdie

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jyb said:
Birdie said:
jyb said:
Birdie said:
From Rob at functionalps:


“‎The larger the quantity of “toxic fat” stored in the body, the more careful the person must be about increasing metabolic and physical activity. Using more vitamin E, short-chain saturated fats, and other anti-lipid-peroxidation agents is important.” Ray Peat

So, RP says it takes 4 years when is storage is high. But what about thin people? I'm hypo yet have always been slim, no matter how much and how bad I eat.
I figure to do it all for 2 years. Then you'd be down to half of your starting pufa. I was off grains for many years and stopped seed oils years ago, but I continued DHA in big doses.
But I have a chronic condition that I want to improve. Makes me motivated. Fortunately, I've been on NDT for 15+ years, but still... I'm on the slim side too, but that is not no matter how much I eat. :lol:

So you think that even though you are thin, some PUFA are stored and it will take 2 years...is that a guess or you have evidence?
I think that in 2 years, which is 1 year away for me, I will be at the 50% mark with pufa detox. If you get to 100% at 4 years a la Peat, then, I figure that by year 2 you'll be at 50%.

But, it may be better than that. If you start thinner, you'll have less pufa mass. Right? So, even though you might reach 50% at 2 years, it will be 50% of a smaller number. Seems reasonable that you would be quite low pufa by the end of year 2.

And not only does it depend on how low your pufa is at the beginning (thin people?), it depends on how good you are at the detox itself. If you keep doing things to block detox and free the pufas into the blood stream and tissues, the detox will be slower.

Just rambling thoughts beginning with Peat's assertions that it usually takes 4 years to detox all the pufas, and that thin people have fewer pufas to start with.
 
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Birdie

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Andrew Kim said:
Birdie, the rate at which PUFA are released from adipose tissue is now on my queue of blog posts to write. Thanks.
I'll look forward to talking to my screen on this one. We're all so interested... Thanks, Andrew.
 

jyb

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Andrew Kim said:
Birdie, the rate at which PUFA are released from adipose tissue is now on my queue of blog posts to write. Thanks.

Andrew, did you write independently of RP articles?

It would be interesting to know where you differ from RP. Right now I only see minor differences (you mention vegetable antioxydants. Are quercetins present in good quantities in green tea - the drink, not raw extracts? RP would probably say the advantage is mainly caffeine.)
 

jyb

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Actually RP writes "The “estrogenic” and “antioxidant” polyphenolic compounds of tea are not the protective agents (they raise the level of estrogen), but tea's caffeine" in raypeat.com/articles/articles/natural-estrogens.shtml

So there seems to be a difference between Kim's article and RP on that point.
 

kettlebell

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narouz said:
I think I've heard speak about PUFA storage in the body in terms of "half-life."
Being very stupid about science, I have only a dim understanding of what that means.
I've heard it applied to radioactive isotopes,
but that would seem like a different kind of measurement...?

In any case, Peat, I think, has said that the half-life of PUFA stored in our bodies is about 2 years.
So, I think that means that the full-life would be four years
(I don't know why the half-life thing is worth bothering with :oops: ).
4 years for most of the oil stored in your body to turn over is what I've heard,
without the fancypants scientific half-life terminology. ;)

And Peat has said that is variable, person-to-person,
based upon how much fat you have stored,
how much of that fat is PUFA,
and how efficiently your metabolism is running
(and thereby removing PUFA through chelation by way of the liver).

Half life is the time required for something to fall to half its initial value.

In relation to PUFA and what Ray seems to suggest is:

Year 0: 100%
Year 2: 50%
Year 4: 25%
Year 6: 12.5%

That is what would be the case if the half life of stored PUFA is two years. It takes two years to be half the amount of two years previously.

That would apply to everyone.

Lets say one person has 10lbs PUFA stored:

Year 0: 10lbs
Year 2: 5lbs
Year 4: 2.5lbs
Year 6: 1.25lbs and so on.

As you can see its not the half life that is the key factor, its the quantity of stored PUFA thats the key thing. Someone with a lot of stored PUFA may well have significant amounts stored 6-8 years later. I think this emphasises very well that this approach to nutrition is a long term approach, 6, 8, 10 years + for some. Every day you are getting rid of a little bit more of the toxins and healing so the focus should be on the process from day to day as looking 4+ years ahead as when you will be "Healed" could make you put your life on hold until that point.
The more you have stored it takes all that much longer to get to the point where the amount no longer causes inflammation/suppression of the system. Thats why things like aspirin, vitamin E etc can be so important (If used correctly) potentially for many years while the body slowly gets rid of the PUFA. Those plus everything else Peat all go a long way to stopping the inflammation/suppression while you get rid of the PUFA so how long it takes becomes to an extent irrelevant as you are hindering the inflammation/suppression.

By about 4 years, if you have been Peating strictly you will have about 25% of the PUFA you had stored 4 years previously which is a significant difference. For many this could be the threshold where the body is able to function with a good oxidative metabolism. For some it will take longer.
 

charlie

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4 years just turned into 10+ years. :cry:
 
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j.

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Charlie said:
4 years just turned into 10+ years. :cry:

I don't think so. The half life I think is 400 days, not 2 years. I'm fairly confident narouz just guessed that 2 years number.
 

kettlebell

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j. said:
Charlie said:
4 years just turned into 10+ years. :cry:

I don't think so. The half life I think is 400 days, not 2 years. I'm fairly confident narouz just guessed that 2 years number.

Well its easy to do the math for any scenario.

Day 0: 100%
Day 400: 50%
Day 800: 25%
Day 1200: 12.5% and so on.
 

charlie

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