RBTI - Reams - mineral deficiency

http://rbtiworld.com/2012/vitamin-c-nee ... than-ever/

edit: I made the french onion soup, OMG delish!! :P I am having a hard time to stop eating it. Its feels so nourishing.

narouz said:

Peat said there is an optimal ph for inside the cell
and then an opposite optimal ph for outside the cell.
And that these are often confused
and lead to diets he thinks are silly.

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Oh, that's right! I remember reading where Ray said that.

With Reams, he went by urine and saliva pH, which in his view, denoted the resistance between the anions and cations, the anions and anions, and the cations and cations. He considered this a key factor in measuring the total amount of energy in our bodies. He believed a urine and saliva pH on the slightly acidic side (6.4) was the optimal pH for health.

Charlie said:

http://rbtiworld.com/2012/vitamin-c-needed-more-than-ever/

edit: I made the french onion soup, OMG delish!! :P I am having a hard time to stop eating it. Its feels so nourishing.

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Awesome! I'm glad you're enjoying it. I've always found French onion soup to hit the spot!

I'm making it tomorrow. It's been extremely windy and freezing here so the soup should warm me up nicely! :)

Narouz, IIRC it is best for the inside of the cell to be acidic and the outside more alkaline from a Peat perspective (generally speaking).

Thanks, Blossom.
Do you remember if that was in the KMUD "Alkaline v Acid" interview...?

Charlie that sounds like a good sign that you enjoyed it so much!

My recollection is that Reams said the UpH represented the pH of the extracellular fluid (6.4 for optimal uptake and use of nutrients), and that the common confusion is with blood pH, which is tighly controlled between 7.35 and 7.45.

I mostly used pH test roll/strips with a range from 5.5 - 8. Occasionally I'd get a measurement at or below 5.5, and want to test more accurately in a lower range. Mine were pHydrion, but I don't know how they compare with any others.

narouz said:

Thanks, Blossom.
Do you remember if that was in the KMUD "Alkaline v Acid" interview...?

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Ray's article Altitude and Mortality on his website is one place where he discusses the topic. If you search acetazolamide on his site he mentions the benefit of slightly acidic intracellular pH in several articles.

Great post. Thank you Jennifer and Tara. Gave me something to think about...

I found some old pHion test strips I had forgotten I had. Tested UpH after my morning coffee-milk combo and was off the chart acidic.

treelady said:

Great post. Thank you Jennifer and Tara. Gave me something to think about...

I found some old pHion test strips I had forgotten I had. Tested UpH after my morning coffee-milk combo and was off the chart acidic.

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One-off measurements can be influenced by recent inputs and stresses. Averaging several readings at different times and different days gives a better general picture. I think Reams suggested ignoring the first pee in the morning, and preferably going for ~11 am and or 2pm.

treelady said:

I found some old pHion test strips I had forgotten I had. Tested UpH after my morning coffee-milk combo and was off the chart acidic.

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Me too, urine and saliva were both like 5. But haidut posted in one thread that he tested U pH and was looking for around 5, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Lots of places say "normal" U pH is 4.6-8.0, for whatever that's worth.

It seems Ray mentioned a number once, but I can't find it. Anyone remember what that was?

BingDing said:

treelady said:

I found some old pHion test strips I had forgotten I had. Tested UpH after my morning coffee-milk combo and was off the chart acidic.

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Me too, urine and saliva were both like 5. But haidut posted in one thread that he tested U pH and was looking for around 5, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Lots of places say "normal" U pH is 4.6-8.0, for whatever that's worth.

It seems Ray mentioned a number once, but I can't find it. Anyone remember what that was?

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Just to say, I think one guy said that coffee starts acidic but ends up alkaline.. Can't quite remember
It was Steven Fowkes talking to Dave Asprey...

From Reams PoV, I would think that an average UpH at or below 5 over many days would indicate that the alkaline buffers were severely depleted. I read that post by Haidut and wondered what his reasons were. It is in a thread associated with sulpur/brimstone. I'm not sure whether his mention of low pH was related to a short course of flowers of sulphur as treatment against yeasts or other parasites. I'm speculating, not taking this directly from either Reams or Peat, but maybe a teaspoon of flowers of sulphur would have this dramatic effect on UpH. I think people use this treatment ~ once a year. If alkaline buffers are generally replete, a short burst like this might have the desired anti-parasite effect without causing untoward problems. Doing it for a longer period, or when the system is already short on alkaline minerals, might cause problems. My understanding of Reams is that he thought an average UpH below 6.2 was inconsistent with optimal metabolic and regenerative processes. Below 5 would be considered serious.

Thanks, Tara. It was in a Lita Lee article.

RP- I think the 24-hour urine should be pretty acidic (6.3–6.7 is optimum), from a good protein intake, but the saliva should be just a little under 7, reflecting a good carbon dioxide content. There are lots of pH cults. Healthy cells use oxygen (“acid source”) and produce carbon dioxide (a Lewis acid), and are resistant to stress. Cancer cells are more alkaline (from producing lactate instead of carbon dioxide) than healthy cells, contrary to popular pH cult beliefs.

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So that is consistent with Reams. She has some other comments in that article that are interesting, about chlorine and HCL acid after eating.

This blog is by a pharmacist. A commenter says that we make about 1 kg of acid from CO2 in a day, which is 20,000 mmol (a measure of mass). A 4 oz piece of beef generates about 8 mmol of acid and a liter of Coke about 2.5 mmol.

BingDing said:

RP- I think the 24-hour urine should be pretty acidic (6.3–6.7 is optimum), from a good protein intake, but the saliva should be just a little under 7, reflecting a good carbon dioxide content. There are lots of pH cults. Healthy cells use oxygen (“acid source”) and produce carbon dioxide (a Lewis acid), and are resistant to stress. Cancer cells are more alkaline (from producing lactate instead of carbon dioxide) than healthy cells, contrary to popular pH cult beliefs.

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So that is consistent with Reams.

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Great. Reassuring that Reams and Peat agree about optimal UpH.
They also seem to agree that it is not the actual pH of the foods that counts, but the mineral content.

BingDing said:

A commenter says that we make about 1 kg of acid from CO2 in a day, which is 20,000 mmol (a measure of mass).

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To me, this connects with hyperventilating (reducing CO2 levels). If efficient metabolism creates lots of acid, and you don't have enough of the alkaline buffers on board to maintain blood pH, it can get dangerously acidic. In this context, it seems to make sense that the body will hyperventilate (get rid of more CO2) to counteract that situation, even though the hyperventilation itself causes problems.

Zachs said:

Vitamin C is highly fragile at any heat. A slow simmer (200+ degrees) is sure to denature almost all C content. This paper found a loss of over 60% C in 30 minutes at only 140 degrees.

http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/nov201 ... tables.pdf

Why is onion stew better than raw fruit for C on the RBTI protocal? I was under the impression that all fruits are alkaline producing even with they have a low pH?

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Hmmm, interesting! So the onion soup would not supply any Vit C?

aquaman said:

Zachs said:

Vitamin C is highly fragile at any heat. A slow simmer (200+ degrees) is sure to denature almost all C content. This paper found a loss of over 60% C in 30 minutes at only 140 degrees.

http://www.ijstr.org/final-print/nov201 ... tables.pdf

Why is onion stew better than raw fruit for C on the RBTI protocal? I was under the impression that all fruits are alkaline producing even with they have a low pH?

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Hmmm, interesting! So the onion soup would not supply any Vit C?

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Well i guess it depends on if you believe RBTI or not.

I just remembered another vit C sparing tactic Reams recommended. Because the skin has a high turnover, and this uses up quite alot of vit-C, you can spare vit-C by applying a barrier oil to the skin to protect it from drying and wearing out so fast.

See the bottom for the TL/DR

Tara - I had a stint with RBTI back when Matt Stone visited Challen (an RBTI practitioner). I stopped attempting to follow the program b/c I was doing it on my own and based on my observations of my own health, it seemed like I was inducing a stress response with the water drinking and it was making me become semi-orthorexic after I had just gotten over my orthorexia thanks to Matt back in the Spring of 2011.

Even though I stopped following the program, I still kept tracking my refractometer reading/urine brix and my urine pH and even my salts for a while until my salt meter broke.

I ended up noticing some interesting patterns in my numbers and I think this information can be useful to a person regardless of what diet they follow. I have a daily pattern with my urine brix and my urine pH. The following is the pattern I noticed.

1. Upon waking, my urine pH would almost always be 6.0 or less

2a. Around late morning/early afternoon (9:30-11am) my urine pH would get very alkaline (7's+ even over 8 at times depending on if I ate breakfast or not). This happened like clockwork and it still does for the most part but I have been testing out ways to keep the urine pH from rising so much.

2b. As my urine pH would rise, my urine brix would go down in an inverse relationship. Also, when my urine pH peaked for the day, this would usually be the time that my urine brix was at its lowest number.

2c. I also noticed that as my urine pH goes up, my urine starts to become cloudy vs being clear (I guess this would tie in to the 4m+ number in RBTI).

3a. After my urine pH would rise, it would then “crash” and go back down to less than 6.0 and would stay there for pretty much the rest of that day. I have since been able to get it to come up and have found foods/supplements that can also raise it. It also seems like as I’ve made improvements in my health, my urine pH would come back up instead of staying down for the rest of the day.

3b. As my urine pH came crashing back down, my urine brix would then rise back up (backing up my thought about there being an inverse relationship between the two).

4. If I got very little sleep the night before, my urine pH would stay acidic (less than 6.0) for the whole next day.

5. Unless I try to manipulate my pH with supplements and foods, my urine pH will tend to stay acidic for the first day or two after I come down with a cold.

I got a friend to monitor his urine brix and pH and he has a similar pattern but his urine pH does not rise as high as mine so it goes: 6.0 or less upon waking; then it rises and peaks; then it goes back down and then can start to come back up. Also, his urine brix has an inverse relationship with the urine pH.

I have a few theories on how these numbers relate to your health and stress. For example, I’m pretty sure after my urine pH comes crashing down, my body has had a stress response. I think this b/c back when I was doing the program, I would drink 4oz of water/lemon water every 30min upon waking and would be fine until around 9:30-11am, when my urine brix would just crash from 2-3 all the way to 0. This crash coincides with the time that my urine pH starts to rise up. I believe there is some connection with the urine pH and your body’s sensitivity to insulin/how much sugar you use since as my urine pH rises, my urine brix always goes down.

Anyway, back to why I think it is a stress response… So what I think was happening was that the water drinking was lowering my brix but then my pH would rise (like it does every day) and would also lower the brix but it would get too low and then I would have my brix crash to 0 and notice some stress symptoms like cold hands and feet; shakiness; my tongue would then get very white and thrushy after eating any carbohydrate after this crash (this would not happen prior to the brix crashing). I still think I have this stress response now when my pH crashes but since my health/metabolism has improved, my body can handle it better and my symptoms are not nearly as bad as they used to be (now, after the pH crash, my tongue will get more white than usual after eating carbs by themselves but not nearly as bad as it used to.) Also, I think I handle it better b/c my brix doesn’t crash to 0 anymore.

If you, Jennifer, and/or anyone else on here still has a refractometer from their RBTI days, I’d like to get a thread going where we could discuss our urine brix and pHs and see if there are patterns like I mentioned above and then use that to our advantage to guide us on when/what we should be eating to minimize the swings in our numbers and the crashes (while still following a Peat-inspired diet). My thought is, if you can minimize the swings and prevent your numbers from crashing, you can improve your health much faster.

For example, I think Treelady mentioned that she had very acidic urine the time she tested. In my experience, I have found coffee lowers my urine pH. So my thought is, if someone has an acidic urine pH and they keep eating/drinking things that keep pushing it farther away from 6.4, it might be preventing them from healing/regenerating optimally and they might develop some negative symptoms. I'd be interested to see what the daily pHs tended to be for some of the people on this forum.

I have found that leafy greens (steamed) help raise urine pH as well as eggshell calcium and coral calcium. RBTI talks about diff calciums and their effect on the pHs. However leafy greens like kale, collards, and spinach seem to raise my pH pretty good. If you juice these, they also raise the urine pH and what I find very interesting about this is as I mentioned earlier, when my urine pH rises, my brix lowers. If you recall from RBTI, they talk about how green juice is very powerful and depending on a person’s numbers, should only be taken in sips or with some sugar from fruit juice as it can trigger low sugar symptoms. This fits in with my theory on the pHs and insulin/blood sugar. Things that raise the urine pH will lower the brix so taking something that can raise the pHs pretty fast and pretty well can cause a “low sugar/hypoglycemia episode”. Depending on a person’s state of health, this can be very harmful or it can just be a minor stressor that your body can adapt and handle w/o many negative symptoms.

There’s a lot of little tricks and patterns I’ve noticed while still keeping track of my brix and urine pH while I follow a more peat-inspired diet. I’ll probably create a separate thread that goes over these things I have observed and how different foods & supplements affect these RBTI numbers and how I think this information can be used to your advantage. I’d love to have others test these two simple values (at least the urine pH) and see if most people’s urine pH reacts the same way to certain foods/supplements that mine does (I’d bet they do which makes this stuff very exciting/promising for the future). I’m also curious to see if people tend to have a daily pH pattern like my friend and I have noticed.

TL/DR – I think aspects of RBTI can be applied to a Peat-inspired diet to improve your results on it. Also, you can use parts of RBTI to find your body’s rhythm and use it as a guide to know when and what to eat. I plan to create a separate thread going over these connections and asking others to see if they observe the same things as I do.

Hi Miguel,
Interesting pattern. I keep intending to do some more brix, pH and salts tests, but just not getting around to it. I'm pretty sure sugar crashes were part of triggering some of my key health dips. I'm supplementing eggshell calcium, which I think is mostly calcium carbonate like coral calcium, and I think that has brought my pH up a bit. I did take quite a few readigngs for a while, but never so many over each day that I could pick daily patterns. I think very low first morning pH is quite common.
I think CO2 production can affect UpH, and be part of the pattern, related as it is to stress, blood sugar, etc.
I also suspect there could be ways to use this information to help optimise/personalise a diet incorporating many of Peat's ideas.
I'm not going to promise to do lots of readings, but if I do get around to a few, I'll report.

Great post, Miguel!

My UpH and Brix followed the same pattern, excepted I usually always had a high UpH (8+) and a low Brix (0) with my morning readings being the only time my Brix was 1.5-2. By 11:00, it would be back down to 0.

Su from Promise Outreach doesn't advise her clients to drink the lemon water outside of a retreat setting for the very reasons you noticed with yourself, as well as others have noticed. I remember a lot of the people on the RBTI facebook group that Pippa and Matt started we're having negative reactions to it. At the time, I couldn't even touch fruit juice without my sugars crashing. Leafy greens/wheat grass juices were the worse because the chlorophyll drops sugars very quickly.

The one thing that RBTI isn't so keen on that has helped raise my Brix is white sugar. That and progest-e has also raised it. I'm not sure by what mechanisms. I'm thinking it has to do with salt balance and/or clearing of estrogen in the liver so the liver functions better and stays replete with glycogen for longer?

One thing that I'm curious about are those pH test strips. I was told they aren't accurate like reagents. Has anyone ever compared the two? I've only used reagents.