What's normal paleolithic human temperature and pulse?

In fact, I don't even remember pure brain control of insulin sensitivity ever having been tested. For all I know, what with body temp. etc. very much under control of the mind, why not insulin sensitivity?

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Brown fat activation happens through catecholamines

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Suikerbuik said:

Yeah that's the study. Probaby some variables are mentioned in it (only abstract as it is behind a paywall): http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nm.3891.html

In fact, I don't even remember pure brain control of insulin sensitivity ever having been tested. For all I know, what with body temp. etc. very much under control of the mind, why not insulin sensitivity?

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There are already studies suggesting that blood glucose or insulin sensitivity is under control of the brain (if that is what you mean).

Brown fat activation happens through catecholamines

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hence: "when dealing with robust health". In these cases I think the catecholamine response makes a body stronger.

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Such_Saturation said:

But would you characterize diabetics as having robust health? There is a burden of proof that comes with suggesting cold makes a body stronger (there are also many meanings to the word strong). We do not know what a catecholamine does to cellular water.

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EnoreeG said:

Stuart said:

That's the issue for me. If people have no detectable symptoms of an 'underactive' thyroid at a slightly loser basal temp than traditionally used to indicate a 'problem' doesn't that indicate that the traditionally used figure is simply the wrong one to use - or to ever have used.
Isn't that why 98.2 deg F is now considered to be a more appropriate 'normal' temp. And that may have been the case all along? Certainly sold a lot more thyroid meds though.

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Hmmm. Selling thyroid meds..... Yes, that could be a huge issue to research. The evolution of the field of thyroid medication and treatment! Presently it's an absolute gold mine. Becoming somewhat diminished in prestige now that integrative medicine is looking at the big picture and showing that many thyroid symptoms are due to leaky gut, adrenal fatigue, liver failure, etc. No gland/organ is an island.

But for years, thyroid was looked at as a somewhat mysteriously malfunctioning organ. An organ that just couldn't keep up with the stresses of modern man. And it was so easy to just recommend some drugs that adjusted for this (take them forever, too!). Then it became quite the efficiency to let people "test themselves" via temperature, knowing this would fill the waiting room with new patients. If there's anything the corporate world, including the drug/medical industry is good at, it's applying their efficiency experts to develop more cost-effective ways to bring in the profits.

I'm not saying that below average temperature is not caused by a thyroid condition. I'm saying practitioners who want to profit and don't mind misleading, are anything but timely and considerate enough to advise the public that there can be other causes of low temperature, and that it is not a conclusive sign that treatment is necessary. And they certainly aren't advising the public in the same piece of promotional advice, that there is a new "accepted" norm of temperature of 98.2, and that lower pulse relates to heightened longevity. These would be confusing and counterproductive to the practice.

Yes, for a while, because it was known that iodine supplementation was a great help for thyroid, iodine was pushed. It was in fact, known as an outstanding treatment for many things 100 years ago. But it seriously got in the way of modern medicine. At first it was used as part of a medicine, then it was excluded, and even iodized salt was deemphasized, while the iodine tincture we all used to use for cuts and scrapes in the mid-20th century was replaced by mercurochrome (no longer approved as safe by the FDA, btw) and merthiolate, both of which contain mercury. Yep, medical efficiency at work.

It's interesting to read about the rise and fall of iodine use by the American medical profession

History of Iodine use

Only finally, some practitioners are revealing some truths that were buried, or have come to light, but are commercially suppressed, because now those practitioners can raise their own efficiency and competitive advantage by selling a book that educates the public, and use a blog or speak on "summits" to publicize the book. I'm thankful for these. Only time will tell if their words are more correct that those of the non-published.

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A very healthy 71 year-old man was under his house repairing the foundation, when a support slipped and let the house fall far enough to break some facial bones. During his recovery, he developed arthritis in his hands. It is fairly common for arthritis to appear shortly after an accident, a shock, or surgery, and Han Selye's famous work with rats shows that when stress exhausts the adrenal glands (so they are unable to produce normal amounts of cortisone and related steroid hormones), arthritis and other "degenerative" diseases are likely to develop.

But when this man went to his doctor to "get something for his arthritis," he was annoyed that the doctor insisted on giving him a complete physical exam, and wouldn't give him a shot of cortisone. The examination showed low thyroid function, and the doctor prescribed a supplement of thyroid extract, explaining that arthritis is one of the many symptoms of hypothyroidism. The patient agreed to take the thyroid, but for several days he grumbled about the doctor 'fixing something that wasn't wrong' with him, and ignoring his arthritis. But in less than two weeks, the arthritis had entirely disappeared. He lived to be 89, without a recurrence of arthritis. (He died iatrogenically, while in good health.)

Selye's work with the diseases of stress, and the anti-stress hormones of the adrenal cortex, helped many scientists to think more clearly about the interaction of the organism with its environment, but it has led others to focus too narrowly on hormones of the adrenal cortex (such as cortisol and cortisone), and to forget the older knowledge about natural resistance. There are probably only a few physicians now practicing who would remember to check for hypothyroidism in an arthritis patient, or in other stress-related conditions. Hypothyroidism is a common cause of adrenal insufficiency, but it also has some direct effects on joint tissues. In chronic hypothyroidism (myxedema and cretinism), knees and elbows are often bent abnormally.

By the 1930's, it was well established that the resistance of the organism depended on the energy produced by respiration under the influence of the thyroid gland, as well as on the adrenal hormones, and that the hormones of pregnancy (especially progesterone) could substitute for the adrenal hormones. In a sense, the thyroid hormone is the basic anti-stress hormone, since it is required for the production of the adrenal and pregnancy hormones.

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narouz said:

You know, back before there was this forum,
I first got into Peat via Danny Roddy.
He used to have a blog where posters could reply for a while.

One time Danny took it into his head to visit that Mark's Daily Apple (or whatever it is) site
and tell them how energy and health were really goin' down, Peat style.

As I recall, he might've been a little more courteous and deferential in that foray.
But...seems like he was being pretty civil--not calling names or being especially rude.

Those paleo guys and gals got after him like a pack of wild dogs!
Withering fangs bared sarcasm.
Extreme turf defending.
They couldn't deal with a discussion at all, no way no how.
Danny had to be battered, laughed at, and excised.
That paleo bunch were often wrong but never in doubt.

I have always felt that this Ray Peat forum should be a little different.

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4peatssake said:

I daresay Danny learned from his experience of giving others his unsolicited advice.

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Such_Saturation said:

4peatssake said:

I daresay Danny learned from his experience of giving others his unsolicited advice.

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We would all still be pagan if people gave up so easily

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4peatssake said:

Such_Saturation said:

4peatssake said:

I daresay Danny learned from his experience of giving others his unsolicited advice.

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We would all still be pagan if people gave up so easily

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Doubtful.

You don't see Ray Peat roaming internet forums to set people straight do you?
Yet here he is, or rather here are his ideas. :P

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Such_Saturation said:

4peatssake said:

Such_Saturation said:

4peatssake said:

I daresay Danny learned from his experience of giving others his unsolicited advice.

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We would all still be pagan if people gave up so easily

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Doubtful.

You don't see Ray Peat roaming internet forums to set people straight do you?
Yet here he is, or rather here are his ideas. :P

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Let's just say catholicism isn't exactly contagious. But unsolicited advice isn't an excuse to act like a pack of angry dogs, don't you think?

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4peatssake said:

Of course not. I never indicated otherwise.
What I said was Danny likely learned from is experience in giving unsolicited advice.
Both "behaving like a pack of angry dogs" and "giving unsolicited advice" are unsavory.

I also don't consider catholicism to be preferable to paganism either but that's a whole other story. :P

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Such_Saturation said:

4peatssake said:

Of course not. I never indicated otherwise.
What I said was Danny likely learned from is experience in giving unsolicited advice.
Both "behaving like a pack of angry dogs" and "giving unsolicited advice" are unsavory.

I also don't consider catholicism to be preferable to paganism either but that's a whole other story. :P

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I think in that manner you could characterize every human interaction as unsolicited. But allowing open comments on a website and not deleting them consists of an intrinsic solicitation of such comments. The resulting bitterness should be a lesson to both parties, but certainly not a reason not to do it anymore.

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Peata said:

I see the mods' point in keeping Ray's ideas easy to access and not muddled with the rest, so that at the least new people who are looking into RP can find them without confusion. After all, didn't they start separate threads on Daily Apple for the Peat crowd there to discuss things?

Also, just out of curiosity, where did Enoree, Stuart and Luc come from? Disclosure, did you come from another forum together to talk to us here ... or somehow three (or more) of you ended up here at the same time? There are too many posts on various threads than I care to look through to find your background, so I was just wanting to know. If you don't answer, that's fine too.

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EnoreeG said:

tara said:

EnoreeG said:

Yeah, I went off starches completely a month ago. I had always been eating mostly potatoes and sweet potatoes with dinner (not every day though). I feel better without these. I've also been just doing a vegan dinner some days, as I feel better when I don't eat meat absolutely every day.

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Hi EnoreeG,
Out of curiosity, if you feel like telling, roughly how much veges do you eat, and how much carbohydrate and calories do you think you get in the average day?
I have a picture of a massive 3-4kg or more pile of high-brix veges to get through each day to get enough carbs (and a great amount of minerals), and I wonder if this is what you are doing, or if you are eating much less carbs altogether? :) It seems daunting to me.

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Hi tara,

First an observation: Since you wrote this, there's been a substantial set of posts along a different vein, and my diet I'm about to reveal is remarkably different. Of course different people "need" different things, so there should be differences showing here. But one thing I'll say is that the posts following yours reflect different dietary and supplement strategies that apparently are trying to change a physical condition, a health marker, or at least try to follow a Peat plan for health.

My diet is a health maintenance diet. I know I have T2D and an allergy to the carb side of dairy and some seasonal allergy to pollen. Other than that, I am healthy in that I don't take drugs or supplements other than some iodine, eat hardly any food that isn't organic. I'm not trying to change anything about my physical condition or health markers, nor am I trying to follow a Peat plan for my health. So my status quo is acceptable, in fact I'd characterize it as robust. I've never had a physician in my entire life though I did visit a doctor available to me when I had health insurance from time to time. And I've been sewed up a few times after injuries.

So maybe you can understand that my diet is designed to just keep me healthy, which means make minor changes to try something that might be better, but more or less "keep on keeping on" with what works? For instance, I went off grains a couple of years ago, just because it seemed prudent, though there was no sign they were damaging me. My health stayed the same. But this is to show that I do try things carefully and keep an open mind.

I'm male, 73 years old, 5' 11" and weigh 148 lbs. So I don't need much food. I'd guess I eat less than 2000 calories per day even though I work hard about an hour a day sometimes. I don't worry about how many calories I get from different foods. My main measure is how I feel, how much energy I have, and how I react (immediately) to foods I ingest. For instance, most fats and protein make me feel immediately sluggish, and any high glycemic carbs make me feel giddy and mentally shaky. Starches, either tubers or whole grains, are sort of neutral, but they do put on weight. All these "feelings" are how I choose foods. So the one set of foods that I feel more vibrant on are fibrous veggies. Wild leaves are more empowering than domestic vegetables, but both are acceptable. Fruits such as tomatoes are ok in small quantities. Fruits like berries give me instability. So essentially, I really minimize fruits. But things like cucumber, eggplant, squash are fine, just not as likely to make me feel vibrant-healthy. So there you have my "feelings alone" criteria.

The foods I eat turns out to be mostly fresh-picked greens (maybe 100-150 gm) plus eggs for breakfast, a large (up to 500-750 gm) salad for lunch, consisting of mostly veggies, but with Feta cheese, vinegar and olive oil, then more veggies like onions, squash, mushrooms (usually cooked and not more than about 150 gm) and usually some meat for a final meal of the day. So I guess that might approach 1000 gm of veggies, to address your question.

Of course that will contain a lot of vitamins and minerals that most meals that others choose can't come close to containing. I don't worry at all about how many "carbs" I'm getting, or what percent of my diet is carbs. I think more about nutrient density, as I think it's the little traces of this and that which count.

In fact this new habit I have of going without the supplements is less than a year old. But it seems to leave me healthy. So again, I do read, learn, and make changes.

I have no idea what my blood glucose is. I may buy a meter soon just for curiosity. All I know is that most juices knock me out, energetically and mentally. An apple is fine, and berries now and then, but I parted ways with my sweet tooth 40 or more years ago, so there's no interest in eating many of the foods that many people focus on here. I'm sure my life would be boring if not painful to most people, but I'm glad I have a way to enjoy it and feel really, really healthy. I wouldn't trade this feeling for what most other people have in order to eat honey and OJ or whatever it takes to get through a day in their life.

So to get back to the thread subject, "blood sugar regulation", I do it by not eating many things at all that get digested quickly and depend on insulin for handling inside the body. Most of the carbs I eat are to such a degree fiber, and not sugars or starches, that I am protected from all the worries that people have that focus on balancing sugars, starches, etc. About the main way I follow Peat is that I reduce polyunsaturated fats in my diet to just what I take in via the whole foods, but no more, and I'm a strong believer in the importance of mineral balancing, and the effect our foods have on the endocrine system, as well as the entire body.

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EnoreeG said:

Peata said:

I see the mods' point in keeping Ray's ideas easy to access and not muddled with the rest, so that at the least new people who are looking into RP can find them without confusion. After all, didn't they start separate threads on Daily Apple for the Peat crowd there to discuss things?

Also, just out of curiosity, where did Enoree, Stuart and Luc come from? Disclosure, did you come from another forum together to talk to us here ... or somehow three (or more) of you ended up here at the same time? There are too many posts on various threads than I care to look through to find your background, so I was just wanting to know. If you don't answer, that's fine too.

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Good question, and I agree a forum needs moderation per a forum charter, and some stated guidelines.

I remember when LucH started an early conversation with

Greetings from Belgium

I know nothing about Stuart, so he may answer himself.

For myself: I made no intro when I joined but my joining here was out of interest in more about Peat after being sent dozens of emails with links to his interviews and website by one particular person. They never mentioned the forum, so when I stumbled on it one day, I signed up. but will reference a post I made once on this thread so you can know where I'm coming from:

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7156&p=89157&hilit=EnoreeG#p89157

In which you will find:

EnoreeG said:

tara said:

EnoreeG said:

Yeah, I went off starches completely a month ago. I had always been eating mostly potatoes and sweet potatoes with dinner (not every day though). I feel better without these. I've also been just doing a vegan dinner some days, as I feel better when I don't eat meat absolutely every day.

Click to expand...

Hi EnoreeG,
Out of curiosity, if you feel like telling, roughly how much veges do you eat, and how much carbohydrate and calories do you think you get in the average day?
I have a picture of a massive 3-4kg or more pile of high-brix veges to get through each day to get enough carbs (and a great amount of minerals), and I wonder if this is what you are doing, or if you are eating much less carbs altogether? :) It seems daunting to me.

Click to expand...

Hi tara,

First an observation: Since you wrote this, there's been a substantial set of posts along a different vein, and my diet I'm about to reveal is remarkably different. Of course different people "need" different things, so there should be differences showing here. But one thing I'll say is that the posts following yours reflect different dietary and supplement strategies that apparently are trying to change a physical condition, a health marker, or at least try to follow a Peat plan for health.

My diet is a health maintenance diet. I know I have T2D and an allergy to the carb side of dairy and some seasonal allergy to pollen. Other than that, I am healthy in that I don't take drugs or supplements other than some iodine, eat hardly any food that isn't organic. I'm not trying to change anything about my physical condition or health markers, nor am I trying to follow a Peat plan for my health. So my status quo is acceptable, in fact I'd characterize it as robust. I've never had a physician in my entire life though I did visit a doctor available to me when I had health insurance from time to time. And I've been sewed up a few times after injuries.

So maybe you can understand that my diet is designed to just keep me healthy, which means make minor changes to try something that might be better, but more or less "keep on keeping on" with what works? For instance, I went off grains a couple of years ago, just because it seemed prudent, though there was no sign they were damaging me. My health stayed the same. But this is to show that I do try things carefully and keep an open mind.

I'm male, 73 years old, 5' 11" and weigh 148 lbs. So I don't need much food. I'd guess I eat less than 2000 calories per day even though I work hard about an hour a day sometimes. I don't worry about how many calories I get from different foods. My main measure is how I feel, how much energy I have, and how I react (immediately) to foods I ingest. For instance, most fats and protein make me feel immediately sluggish, and any high glycemic carbs make me feel giddy and mentally shaky. Starches, either tubers or whole grains, are sort of neutral, but they do put on weight. All these "feelings" are how I choose foods. So the one set of foods that I feel more vibrant on are fibrous veggies. Wild leaves are more empowering than domestic vegetables, but both are acceptable. Fruits such as tomatoes are ok in small quantities. Fruits like berries give me instability. So essentially, I really minimize fruits. But things like cucumber, eggplant, squash are fine, just not as likely to make me feel vibrant-healthy. So there you have my "feelings alone" criteria.

The foods I eat turns out to be mostly fresh-picked greens (maybe 100-150 gm) plus eggs for breakfast, a large (up to 500-750 gm) salad for lunch, consisting of mostly veggies, but with Feta cheese, vinegar and olive oil, then more veggies like onions, squash, mushrooms (usually cooked and not more than about 150 gm) and usually some meat for a final meal of the day. So I guess that might approach 1000 gm of veggies, to address your question.

Of course that will contain a lot of vitamins and minerals that most meals that others choose can't come close to containing. I don't worry at all about how many "carbs" I'm getting, or what percent of my diet is carbs. I think more about nutrient density, as I think it's the little traces of this and that which count.

In fact this new habit I have of going without the supplements is less than a year old. But it seems to leave me healthy. So again, I do read, learn, and make changes.

I have no idea what my blood glucose is. I may buy a meter soon just for curiosity. All I know is that most juices knock me out, energetically and mentally. An apple is fine, and berries now and then, but I parted ways with my sweet tooth 40 or more years ago, so there's no interest in eating many of the foods that many people focus on here. I'm sure my life would be boring if not painful to most people, but I'm glad I have a way to enjoy it and feel really, really healthy. I wouldn't trade this feeling for what most other people have in order to eat honey and OJ or whatever it takes to get through a day in their life.

So to get back to the thread subject, "blood sugar regulation", I do it by not eating many things at all that get digested quickly and depend on insulin for handling inside the body. Most of the carbs I eat are to such a degree fiber, and not sugars or starches, that I am protected from all the worries that people have that focus on balancing sugars, starches, etc. About the main way I follow Peat is that I reduce polyunsaturated fats in my diet to just what I take in via the whole foods, but no more, and I'm a strong believer in the importance of mineral balancing, and the effect our foods have on the endocrine system, as well as the entire body.

Click to expand...

So you might get the idea that, at age 73, and experiencing good health, though following an eating plan quite different than what is represented as Peat's basic grounds for health, I'm not very interested in changing my working formula, just to "see what happens". I am here to learn from others, and share what I know, because for me health is quite an interesting study and an enveloping hobby.

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EnoreeG said:

So you might get the idea that, at age 73, and experiencing good health, though following an eating plan quite different than what is represented as Peat's basic grounds for health, I'm not very interested in changing my working formula, just to "see what happens". I am here to learn from others, and share what I know, because for me health is quite an interesting study and an enveloping hobby.

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forum rules said:

This forum is for members interested in learning about and discussing Dr. Ray Peat's ideas, as presented in his writing and interviews, and in helping each other to think about how we can apply these ideas in our own lives. Ray Peat has agreed to this forum being started, but he does not moderate or participate here. Posts here do not necessarily represent his views.

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Westside PUFAs said:

Stuart, I agree with 4peatssake here because when I saw that you said this:

"There are probably only a few physicians now practicing who would remember to check for hypothyroidism in an arthritis patient, or in other stress-related conditions."

I thought to myself "Oh, he's one of those. People who think MD's have your best interest in mind."

Now, of course not all MD's are evil drug pushers. But, the context here is that you must take your health into your own hands, and specifically be aggressive about getting much needed lab work done to see what your blood says about things like TSH, iron etc. You can not expect an MD to check everything for you. You have to do it yourself.

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