Dean Ornish Diet - Worst Ever! And Sadly Featured On TED

So on TED they have a talk by Dean Ornish - a doctor apparently.

I havent' seen the talk because I didn't want to waste 15 minutes of my life on some self-promotion BS. He sells high-priced programs to "undo" heart disease. PROVEN by science apparently.

But I googled his diet, and found that he puts food into 5 categories from best to worst. This monstrosity has to be seen to be believed.

Here's the full list, http://ornishspectrum.com/proven-program/nutrition/ (scroll down to the Spectrum Food choices).

Here are some of the highlights from each section:

1) MOST healthful:
Lots of starched like whole grain this, whole-grain that. Including udon noodles.
All vegatables basically
Rice milk, soy milk and fat-free dairy
Most types of beans
Fish oils
Proteins: Egg whites or liquid egg substitutes, Hummus made without oil or Tahini, Soy and soy alternatives: Tofu, Tempeh, Natto, Edemame, Soy hot dogs, Soy fat free sausage, Veggie burgers

2) More healthful
All the vegetables oils, nuts, nut butter etc

3) intermediate
Most seafood goes in here - ha! Seafood is worse than whole-grain bread, english muffins, cereals etc!

The best one - high fructose corn syrup goes into "intermediate" alongside sugar.

4) "Less healthful"
Full fat dairy
Chicken broth

5) 'least healthful" - this is possibly the most ridiculous/hilarious/terrifying part
red meat
organ meat
All other full fat cheese, Coconut milk, Half & half, Heavy cream, Butter
Coconut oil
beef broth
egg yolks

So high fructose corn syrup gets rated better than organ meat, broth, coconut oil, egg yolks, butter etc.

Processed/manufactured soy fat-free sausage is the MOST healthful but all red meat, butter, coconut oil is the LEAST. Woww

Processed chicken luncheon meat gets rated in category 4 too !


isn't this just the food pyramid that the US has been pushing since the 1930s with beans, grains etc?

he must really think dietary cholesterol / saturated fat is the main issue in bad health. Ill advised. I could even understand if he was like don't add excess isolated fat to your meals...but come on, non fat milk? and egg whites? I don't understand how people can be so arrogant to promote things that if you actually try on yourself prove are not ideal...based on how you feel and the passage in and out of the body. I think people like him are more like zealots about an ideal than actual human to human that care about others well being...whatever the truth may be. Have none of these people ever heard of Ray Peat? I used to be slightly engrained in the vegan low fat PUFA dogma...and Peat was eloquent and intelligent and polite enough to draw me away quickly, back to more of the realistic gentle truth. Maybe people like Ornish are just salesman for tufurky and almond milk and what not behind the scenes...or else I don't understand the point of what theyre doing. Or maybe they assume if everyone was vegetarian we would at least be happier as a society...which may be true, but you cant just substitute meat with allergen irritant serotonin producing food that slows metabolism big time and expect people to still be happy. But then again....he puts fish oils (non vegetarian) at the top of the list...that's sad man, it really is. Like...now he even loses the credibility that hes trying to do something for ethical reasons...its proof hes either a sales representative or grossly ignorant himself

Sad to say, I used to follow a diet like that.

pboy said:

Maybe people like Ornish are just salesman for tufurky and almond milk and what not behind the scenes..

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He seems a bit meglomaniac, like he's interested in finding basic health studies and then promoting the crap out of himself as the saviour of the human race. His site is all about selling his training to individuals and to groups of doctors. It's the perfect example of the US health sector as a business. Maybe he thinks by following the 1930s food pyramid he can get government backing? Can he really believe this is better? If this worked why did the US suddenly get super unhealthy towards the end of the 20th century when this is the Standard American Diet??

The main thing for me - how can eating HFCS or processed soy hotdogs be better than dairy/meat which humans have eaten across the world for 10s of 1000s of years??!

The OECD reports show an inverse correlation between saturated fat consumption and dairy consumption in Europe and the incidence of heart disease. I don't know where this data comes from to "scientifically prove" that his diet reverses heart disease?!

Here are the studies linked to on his site:

http://ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/up ... actors.pdf
http://ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/up ... sease1.pdf

http://ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/up ... dicine.pdf
--> opening line of this one: "Reducing cholesterol levels saves lives. Statin drugs are effective ways of lowering cholesterol levels."
[written by him]

http://ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/up ... sation.pdf

http://ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/up ... reases.pdf

This is such a good article from the big man:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ch ... vity.shtml

"The correspondence between heart disease and consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol is little more than advertising copy. If people were looking for the actual causes of heart disease, they would consider the factors that changed in the US during the time that heart disease mortality was increasing. Both increases in harmful factors, and decreases in protective factors would have to be considered.

The consumption of manufactured foods, pollution of air and water, the use of lead in gasoline, cigarette smoking, increased medicalization and use of drugs, psychosocial and socioeconomic stress, and increased exposure to radiation--medical, military, and industrial--would be obvious things to consider, along with decreased intake of some protective nutrients, such as selenium, magnesium, and vitamins. "

aquaman said:

This is such a good article from the big man:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ch ... vity.shtml

"The correspondence between heart disease and consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol is little more than advertising copy. If people were looking for the actual causes of heart disease, they would consider the factors that changed in the US during the time that heart disease mortality was increasing. Both increases in harmful factors, and decreases in protective factors would have to be considered.

The consumption of manufactured foods, pollution of air and water, the use of lead in gasoline, cigarette smoking, increased medicalization and use of drugs, psychosocial and socioeconomic stress, and increased exposure to radiation--medical, military, and industrial--would be obvious things to consider, along with decreased intake of some protective nutrients, such as selenium, magnesium, and vitamins. "

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ray peat is so awesome man, its such a breath of fresh air to hear someone speak with such clarity and sense and encompassing all elements. I agree with that quote entirely!

Ornish was a friend of Steve Jobs. Just sayin.

aquaman said:

..on TED they have a talk by Dean Ornish...

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I do not know Dr. Ornish personally. According to web references, he is a fully trained physician, with prestigious training. Further, I have studied Dr. Peat's work consistently and have worked to apply it for a long time. I do not follow an Ornish-type program and think the Ornish-type approach is far from optimal, though it may be better than what it replaced.

"However", as best I can tell, Dr. Ornish has worked sincerely on a hypothesis that was unpopular, unorthodox, and clearly not lucrative. He could have taken easier and far more profitable paths in medical practice than what he chose.

He was maybe the first researcher to clearly demonstrate that "coronary artery disease" could be somewhat reversed through non-pharmaceutical "life style" measures (referring to exercise, stress reduction, and diet). He started this uphill work more than thirty years ago.

There are many diet and exercise "advocates" whose views I am far from agreeing with. Dr. Ornish has made the effort to do real and substantial research, and dialogued extensively with advocates of differing viewpoints. His work opened discussion about non-surgical and non-pharmaceutical approaches to disease, among medical professionals as well as the public. This appears to differ with many profiteering self-appointed health stylists, who only hawk questionable products.

--
Lancet. 1990 Jul 21;336(8708):129-33.
Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease? The Lifestyle Heart Trial.
Ornish D1, Brown SE, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, McLanahan SM, Kirkeeide RL, Brand RJ, Gould KL.

"Overall, 82% of experimental-group patients had an average change towards regression. Comprehensive lifestyle changes may be able to bring about regression of even severe coronary atherosclerosis after only 1 year, without use of lipid-lowering drugs."

JAMA. 1983 Jan 7;249(1):54-9.
Effects of stress management training and dietary changes in treating ischemic heart disease.
Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Doody RS, Kesten D, McLanahan SM, Brown SE, DePuey E, Sonnemaker R, Haynes C, Lester J, McAllister GK, Hall RJ, Burdine JA, Gotto AM Jr.

"After 24 days, patients in the experimental group demonstrated a 44% mean increase in duration of exercise, a 55% mean increase in total work performed, somewhat improved left ventricular regional wall motion during peak exercise, and a net change in the left ventricular ejection fraction from rest to maximum exercise of +6.4%. Also, we measured a 20.5% mean decrease in plasma cholesterol levels and a 91.0% mean reduction in frequency of anginal episodes."

Am J Med. 2014 Sep;127(9):804-6. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.04.003. Epub 2014 Apr 19.
A deficiency of nutrition education in medical training.
Devries S1, Dalen JE2, Eisenberg DM3, Maizes V4, Ornish D5, Prasad A6, Sierpina V7, Weil AT4, Willett W8.

in that light, youre right...I guess sometimes we forget how far behind the mainstream is....theyre still into learned helplessness cut burn poison methods. At least Ornish is trying to say, no its about your lifestyle and diet more, nothing fixed in stone...a step in the right direction for the majority of the mainstream. Ray Peat really goes so far beyond this though, way ahead of this time...hundreds of times more interrelated and complex and expansive than someone like Ornish
At the end of the day, a child would know not to eat fish oil or soy by the taste alone...you know, and theyd love a milkshake. Its funny how simple things are just by trusting intuition and having a sensitive palate. So the fact he may hve done some research and genuinely thinks that fish oil, egg whites, and soy are good...you have to be really self disconnected to actually believe it, if you've experimented. I wonder what he actually eats himself

aguilaroja said:

aquaman said:

.

There are many diet and exercise "advocates" whose views I am far from agreeing with. Dr. Ornish has made the effort to do real and substantial research, and dialogued extensively with advocates of differing viewpoints. His work opened discussion about non-surgical and non-pharmaceutical approaches to disease, among medical professionals as well as the public. This appears to differ with many profiteering self-appointed health stylists, who only hawk questionable products.

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I just don't see how someone with intelligence, scientific training and dedication could come to the conclusion that eating soy, beans, whole-wheat, and fish/vegetable oils could be better for you than eating eggs and dairy.

Either he is so trapped within the paradigm of big industry research that he can't see out, or there is some unscrupulous stuff going on.

in China, consumption of vegetable oil went up by something like a factor of 20x in the last 20 years. Consumption of saturated fat increased by around 2x. And yet the outcry is against saturated fat as the cause of increasing heart disease and "western" diseases in China!

There's another guy I found on TED called Neal Barnard who seems to be pushing the same rough diet, except specifically he's vegetarian/vegan with no full fat dairy (or maybe even no dairy at all).

http://www.nealbarnard.org/

He's currently runing a social media campaign attacking Quaker oats for including milk in their advertising, arguing that it's healthier to use milk substitutes.

Arrrghhh.

He pushes beans, kimchee, tempeh etc.

I'm guessing that TED is run by ethical vegans/vegetarians who want to push this way of eating out to the world as healthful rather than have to go down the ehtical route.

lol @ margarine and oysters being in the same category

Also, what the hell are "Fat-free margarine spreads" and why are they in the "most healthful" category?!

Geez...

With the exception of fruit, this is almost the exact opposite of what Ray Peat recommends

MyUsernameHere said:

He's also Jewish... yeah... no surprise that they push these kinds of people into the mainstream to promote these awful diets to the average nutritionally-uneducated person.

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And you're super educated because you eat a Ray Peat diet? Wrong lol

The thing about eating a Ray Peat inspired diet is that there is no rule book. So many people get into problems eating this way because of the zero guidelines or boundaries (hello fatty liver & pre diabetes & insulin resistance).

What's wrong with being Jewish? Are you implying something? I wouldn't like to think you were being inappropriate there.

Are you also referring to Ornish? He advocates a starch based low fat diet. A diet that a number of people here on the Ray Peat Forum eat. I swear it's Ornish who's dietary approach has bee proven to reverse athlerosclerosis. Don't be small minded. I do find it laughable how people on this forum believe in being unrestricted and tolerant, yet in the next breath anyone who is slightly different (or 'labelled') is dissed as a failure. Basically, those who close their minds off learn the least.

Uffe Ravnskov debunked Dean Ornish's claims
In his own book ' cholesterol myth's.

I would personally trust Uffe every time.

Welp, where to start with this one.

Worst ever? I can think of many diets that are actually bad, like low carb or standard western.

Ad hominem Ornish and Esselstyn all you want but they have real published clinical data on reversing the number one killer. That doesn’t mean you have to eat their diets 100% of the time to avoid or reverse HD, you can do what you want, but the data is there.



As far as the starch hate in this thread, I’ll remind of you of this recent quote by Peat and yes it was recent:

“But if your digestive system is very healthy, you can get along just with starch instead of sugar, but you still need a few hundred grams of carbohydrate either as starch or sugar everyday.”-RP

I know he said “get along” but he still said it and this and all of these.

A purist Peat diet would be no starch but if you're a Peat fan and you ignore those quotes then you’re dogmatic.

It’s funny how the pro-sugar doctors get hate on here. It’s weird. You should love that there are people out there saying this, regardless of other disagreements because no one else is pro-sugar:

LucyL said:

Ornish was a friend of Steve Jobs. Just sayin.

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Working in labs inhaling soldering lead and other poisons for years isn't very healthy.

The OP needs some humility and chill unless he wants to come across as a doltish cheerleader or a roadie. Refering to Peat as "The Big Man" also doesn't help.

There is no single truth, and everyone very well may have their own truth. To assume that Peat is the only one who has his viewed backed by studies is moronic, you must know that. There are many people who don't do well on Peat inspired diet, some get diabetes, others who propser. Same with Ornish. This is one of those live and let live situations.

Btw, I'm pretty certain Peat would be quite uncomfortable with your religious devotion.

MyUsernameHere said:

He's also Jewish... yeah... no surprise that they push these kinds of people into the mainstream to promote these awful diets to the average nutritionally-uneducated person.

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MyUsernameHere said:

Oh, I'm just used to a whole lot of fake news from them, 'tis all. I don't expect their nutritional advice to be any more accurate.

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The ignorance of knuckle-dragging anti-Semites is just astounding. Have you ever considered that maybe the Jews are put in conspicuous positions so that non-thinking people will immediately blame all the world's problems on them. Real power doesn't seek attention or work in the public eye. They are not Jewish, never have been and never will be. The Jews are an extremely small minority that has been scapegoated for 2,000 years by the same power structure that is still in charge today. How long will you fall for this BS?

I would mainly reproach to the described diet, to have quite a few processed products, like margarine and vegetable milks, soy sausages.
Also reproach harsh fiber and anti-nutrient rich bran from wholemeal grains.
Get fibre from veg and fruits!
Also that's low fat but excess omega 6.
The food type is controversial, but all in all, it is high carb, low fat and reasonable protein though too veg protein for my taste and for my gut.
Macro ratios might be quite correct, but with a source or type of food we do not agree with. Like too vegetal and not animal enough, or too PUFA and not enough SFA.

aguilaroja said:

as best I can tell, Dr. Ornish has worked sincerely on a hypothesis that was unpopular, unorthodox, and clearly not lucrative.

He was maybe the first researcher to clearly demonstrate that "coronary artery disease" could be somewhat reversed through non-pharmaceutical "life style" measures (referring to exercise, stress reduction, and diet). He started this uphill work more than thirty years ago.

Dr. Ornish has made the effort to do real and substantial research, and dialogued extensively with advocates of differing viewpoints. His work opened discussion about non-surgical and non-pharmaceutical approaches to disease, among medical professionals as well as the public.

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Ornish (and his partner in deception Esselstyn) have been trying hard to resurrect the old, disproven theory of cholesterol causing heart disease.

Both promote cholesterol lowering statins, and both claim the erroneous and irresponsible doctrine of low cholesterol being healthy.

For the past 50 years, the famed Framingham study has been hailed by the establishment as the definitive proof on the causative role of cholesterol. Until in the 80's, danish epidemiologist Uffe Ravnskov combed painstakingly through the actual data and demonstrated it actually totally disproved the starting assertion; he exposed the final conclusions advertised in the medias and medical schools as a total fabrication and misrepresentation. A fraud, in simple terms. Perpetrated in order to promote patented pharmaceuticals, and unable to cure or prevent the disease. It's all in the open and free for anyone caring to read it.

Ornish and Eselstyn are the latest attempts by the establishment to resurrect this dead cholesterol scam and perpetuate the ongoing lucrative drug business. And to keep the deception alive, they are covertly using the discoveries of genuine medical researchers .

- Max Gerson was curing heart disease back in the 1930's with a 12 months partly vegetarian diet excluding vegetable oils (it used animal liver and cottage cheese, as well as niacin and thyroid hormone), publishing his results in the journals who would accept them. That's 50 years before Ornish' "discoveries". The mechanism of this reversal was unclear at the time, but following pioneers brought answers to these matters.

- Back in the forties, the Shute brothers treated 10.000 heart patients exclusively with high dose Vit E, boasting exceptional results. Vit E, abundant in grains, is an estrogen antagonist, an antioxydant and a vasodilatator of the small vessels and micro-circulation; it promotes the development of collateral vessels. Their work got published but was totally ignored by the establishment.

- At the same time, Broda Barnes had phenomenal success treating hypothyroid heart patients with thyroid hormone. Over 3000 cases showed almost total disparition of symptoms, the failures being numbered on a single hand. Even though the scientific research in unimpeachable, the establishment refuses to investigate it.

- Abram Hoffer used in the sixties high dose niacin and niacinamide to treat heart disease with excellent results. Vit B3 has been scientifically proven to efficiently lower atherosclerosis and to normalize elevated blood lipids; Hoffer reported his findings in numerous scientific articles for these past 40 years, but is still ignored by mainstream research (The benefits of niacin in atherosclerosis)

- Linus Paulng reported back in the eighties that high dosage Vitamin C reversed atherosclerosis in animals. His work was corroborated by human anecdoctical cases (Owen Fonorow "Practicing medicine without a licence: The Story of the Linus Pauling Therapy for Heart Disease"). Yet the human trials are still blocked to this day by Big Pharma.

- Magnesium has been shown since the sixties to lower and prevent atherosclerosis, normalize elevated blood lipids and prevent death from heart attacks. The establishment criminally swept the discovery under the carpet.

- Hans Nieper picked up on this magnesium research and designed back in the 70's mineral transporters to more efficiently deliver it to the heart muscle. His research was totally ignored by the establishment, but got confirmed by new investigators in the years 2000.

- Mexican cardiologist Sodi-Pallares published in the 50's results proving Potassium helps injured cardiac muscular cells while sodium harms them, and can halve the deaths from heart attacks and cardiac failure with a simple infusion of potassium, glucose and insulin. His results have been recently confirmed in large scale trials, without the establishment ever sounding a beep for decades.


Both Ornish and Eselstyn incorporate these findings through a vegetarian diet, naturally rich in vitamins B, C, E, magnesium and potassium, without ever crediting the original discoverers.

In a case of textbook, standard protocol of swindlers and scammers, they use the modest good results of their diet to shift the causative role of heart disease back to "the bad saturated fats and cholesterol", in fact innocent bystanders, rather than recognizing the good heart protecting effects of the vitamins and minerals, the true healing agents of their protocol.

By mixing the antidotes with the poisons (omegas 3, fish oils inhibit the thyroid, statins poison the whole body, while vitamins and minerals help it) it can only show a minimal beneficial effect, compared to the original researchers.

Using the ignorance of the taxpayer and everyday common people against themselves to intoxicate and to fleece them in the process.

Machiavelli would be proud.

Whether this conduct deserves respect and admiration, as aguilaroja hinted, is for everyone to consider...