A1 Vs A2 Milk - Is The Devil Really In The Milk?

barbwirehouse

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Westside PUFAs said:
I think the A1 milk thing is snake oil. Keith Woodford, author of Devil in the Milk, clearly says in this podcast:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroun ... ID=4003003

that he is affiliated with the company in, I believe it was OZ or NZ, that started to promote that myth so they can sell their milk and make people not want to buy the other milk. There is a part in the interview where it gets awkward and it seems like he's a huckster. He is the guy who started the whole thing. Listen to the podcast and you'll know that this guy is a quack, just from the way he talks.

He was the guy who started it all, Keith Woodford.

New Zealand, A2 milk. They export their milk to Australia and is the only brand I've seen selling this A2 junk in my entire life.
 

Zachs

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I think 70% or so of my calories come from dairy. I have never been healthier or leaner in my entire life. I try to always buy the best available, but I can't get raw and can't always get jersey milk and it's hard to say what type of cows, my cheeses came from. Still in total, I digest all equally perfectly.

There might be something to the a1 a2 controversy but for me it comes down to sourcing grass fed milk, small batch productions and high quality cheeses, none of which contain added vitamins or emulsifiers. And of course having an optimal thyroid output and a zero pufa intake (besides naturally occurring in dairy, plants, etc.
 

gretchen

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There's definitely a difference between A1 and a2 milk. Amino acid 6-7 is changed from proline to histidine in a1. Histidine doesn't want to be digested so it breaks down from the rest of aa chain and becomes bcm-7, beta caso morphine, which is similar in structure to morphine.

I researched to try to find out if bcm-7 can cause weight gain and also it's affect on dopamine, since anything I've read that affects that can drive obesity, but, it appears that a1 milk amplifies dopamine rather than suppresses it. I didn't find much so I looked at opiates and dopamine.

Bcm-7 actually increases dopamine by opposing GABA:
http://neurogenesis.com/neuroscience/ho ... the-brain/

Other neuro endocrine effects:

Bcm-7 inhibits release of thyrotropin:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... on_in_rats

It acts on the hypothalamus to inhibit TRH via dopamine.

Google opiates and weight gain and a lot comes up. There's a lot of threads about how fat and lazy the person got and then they suddenly lost a ton of weight after they quit.
 

tara

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I wonder if it is another one of those things that depends on how well one's digestion is functioning. Maybe someone with strong metabolism and strong digestive enzymes can digest the A1 milk well enough for it not to cause problems, and those of us who are weaker in this are may be more prone to trouble.
 

pboy

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ray's never addressed this right? I think I heard him say some people digest goats milk better, some even UHT pasteurized better, but he doesn't think milk is an issue...hes never specifically said it but I think he wants to say...or what he thinks, is that people are falsly vilifying milk when its more than likely other problems with digestion or something else. Just say you had a severely compromised GI...and couldn't break down things very well, low thyroid or something...would not milk be like one of the last bastions or hope to recover with? its one the most easy digested things there is...its meant to be like that. Only inner portion of melons and papaya would I say are as pure as milk and maybe a lil easier cause no protein, but still...the protein in milk is meant to be digested easily

im sure ive got various types of milk...the brands I buy often are sourced from multiple farms with multiple types of cows so theres no telling for sure what im drinking. I was a vegan for 2 years a while back, and when I introduced dairy back in...I started with ghee, then whey, then just milk chocolate...then cream, and cheese and yogurt, eventually milk...but it all happened pretty quickly, I think I had milk towards the beginning also just wasn't a staple yet. The thing is...I never had problems digesting it at all, it was always organic and mostly grass fed stuff I was buying..the cheese and yogurt sometimes were organic but probly grain fed. In fact, I realized soon enough I was trippin, and begin applying what I knew about other food to dairy also. Usually fermented foods and especially burnt or high heat things never digested as good as their fresh or boiled counterpart. The whey was ...even though it was grass fed and pure, it wasn't the most ideal thing for digestion...and whey is supposed to be super easy...its cause its processed to a crisp basically. Milk turned out to be the easiest of all dairy to digest, and in fact...food in general. Ripe fruits are the only thing that compares (and of course white sugar) but the fruits often have irritants, or are acidic..like most fruit, not that bad, but I feel it in the gut...doing something. Milk I don't feel at all. I realized it was hypotonic after some time...too watery, and would make me tired if that's all I drank...and id feel seretonined out, I correlated it to how I felt when id drink too much water, and I looked up some stuff and realized milk from cow is slightly hypotonic compared to human breast milk, so I simply added a lil sugar or ate something dense with it...still do.

But yea, there might be something..some kidn of difference to the a1, a2, but I think its actually a non factor, doesn't matter at all, or is insignificant...especially compared to more im portant factors like how the cows were treated and what they ate, and how it was processed

and if a1 increases dopamine, its good
 

tara

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I think there has been a change in dairy herds over the last few decades, so that more of it is A1 now than used to be (some are also starting to change their herds back to more A2, but still a minority, IIUC). I don't know what it is about milk that gets me, but I don't believe it's hypotonicity. I have tried various mainly grass fed pasturerised, various fat levels. It could be a personal allergy or intolerance, rather than something that applies generally. I've been trying to see if I do handle A2 better, but can't always get it, so I haven't been able to do a consistent test yet.
 

burtlancast

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Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

Here's a scientific article from Sweden explaining niacinamide can delay or prevent infants getting type 1 diabetes.
The interesting part is the article mentions the role of early milk exposition in causing this disease.

I would have posted this in the old A1 - A2 thread, but it seems to have been locked. :cry:

Can type-1 diabetes in children be prevented?​
Increased knowledge of the etiopathogenesis of Type 1 diabetes has focused great interest on the possibilities of preventing the disease. Type 1 diabetes is considered to be a chronic autoimmune disease characterized by gradual beta-cell destruction mediated by autoreactive T-lymphocytes during an asymptomatic prediabetic phase of varying duration. Both experimental and epidemiologic data indicate that nutritional cow milk exposure early in life may play a critical role in the initiation of beta-cell destruction. Accordingly a primary prevention study has been planned to test the hypothesis that dietary elimination of cow milk proteins over the first 9 months of life will decrease the subsequent risk of childhood type 1 diabetes in high risk infants. The possibility of identifying prediabetic individuals before decisive loss of beta-cell function by various islet cell-specific autoantibodies enables measures of secondary prevention in the prediabetic phase. There are indications from experimental and human studies that nicotinamide, a water-soluble group B vitamin, may be effective in preventing or delaying the presentation of diabetes. A European multicentre study will be initiated in the near future to explore whether oral nicotinamide can prevent or delay the clinical manifestation of Type 1 diabetes in high risk first degree relatives of diabetic children. We have to wait for the results of these intervention studies for years, and similarly other prevention strategies have to be tested in large-scale long-lasting clinical trials. Nevertheless, prevention of childhood diabetes may become a reality in the next century.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1408725
 

dd99

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

What? So feeding children milk could cause type 1 diabetes?
 

burtlancast

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

dd99 said:
What? So feeding children milk could cause type 1 diabetes?

Yes, Keith Woodforde wrote a book about it.

It's due to a mutated milk protein ( casein) in some breeds of cows.

To avoid this, just drink the milk without the mutated casein (A2 milk), or goat milk, sheep milk, etc which are all devoid of the mutation.
 

Stuart

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

burtlancast said:
dd99 said:
What? So feeding children milk could cause type 1 diabetes?

Yes, Keith Woodforde wrote a book about it.

It's due to a mutated milk protein ( casein) in some breeds of cows.

To avoid this, just drink the milk without the mutated casein (A2 milk), or goat milk, sheep milk, etc which are all devoid of the mutation.
Is A2 bovine milk the one with or without the mutated casein?
 

jyb

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

burtlancast said:
dd99 said:
What? So feeding children milk could cause type 1 diabetes?

Yes, Keith Woodforde wrote a book about it.

It's due to a mutated milk protein ( casein) in some breeds of cows.

To avoid this, just drink the milk without the mutated casein (A2 milk), or goat milk, sheep milk, etc which are all devoid of the mutation.

That said, many observe that feeding milk formula (so, cow milk?) instead of breastfeed results in more poorly developed kids. And the study on this thread is in that situation. I wouldn't be confident that feeding A2 cow milk would solve the problem (otherwise I have no opinion on A2 versus A1 but I'm aware of the controversy), although if it did it would be quite useful for those unable to breastfeed...
 

burtlancast

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

Stuart said:
Is A2 bovine milk the one with or without the mutated casein?

A2 is the non-mutated casein, A1 is the mutated one.
A1 is found only in cow milk ( some breeds only); sheep, camel, goat, etc.. all have the good A2 casein.
 

burtlancast

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

jyb said:
That said, many observe that feeding milk formula (so, cow milk?) instead of breastfeed results in more poorly developed kids. And the study on this thread is in that situation. I wouldn't be confident that feeding A2 cow milk would solve the problem (otherwise I have no opinion on A2 versus A1 but I'm aware of the controversy), although if it did it would be quite useful for those unable to breastfeed...

Of course, human milk is the best.

But there's nothing wrong in giving goat milk to children or adults.

They have been feeding A1 casein to lab animals and it did trigger diabetes and atherosclerosis in them.
They have covered up the results so the milk industry wouldn't collapse.

As i've wrote in one of my first posts, i would never give A1 milk to any children.
 

dd99

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Re: Niacinamide prevents type 1 diabetes in infants following milk ingestion

burtlancast said:
jyb said:
That said, many observe that feeding milk formula (so, cow milk?) instead of breastfeed results in more poorly developed kids. And the study on this thread is in that situation. I wouldn't be confident that feeding A2 cow milk would solve the problem (otherwise I have no opinion on A2 versus A1 but I'm aware of the controversy), although if it did it would be quite useful for those unable to breastfeed...

Of course, human milk is the best.

But there's nothing wrong in giving goat milk to children or adults.

They have been feeding A1 casein to lab animals and it did trigger diabetes and atherosclerosis in them.
They have covered up the results so the milk industry wouldn't collapse.

As i've wrote in one of my first posts, i would never give A1 milk to any children.

Thanks for the info, burt. That's a relief: my son had breast milk for his first year then goat milk since (cow milk makes him snotty).
 

honeybee

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So where can you buy a2 milk? How is it marketed in the U.S.?
 

Tarmander

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I am a type 1 diabetic, was diagnosed at 12 years old almost two decades ago. I ate tons of milk and cereal growing up, it's tough to pin point that as a cause though. I will say I react to cows milk pretty abysmally these days. Really spikes the blood sugar. Do much better on goats milk. I'd be interested to try some A2 milk and give some feedback though.
 

tara

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I read a little of one paper on this a while ago, and I thought it was a matter of proportions of A1 and A2 proteins in different cattle breeds, not that any breeds were completely devoid of the A1, just some make a lot less of it?
 

Parsifal

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burtlancast said:
A2 is the non-mutated casein, A1 is the mutated one.
A1 is found only in cow milk ( some breeds only); sheep, camel, goat, etc.. all have the good A2 casein.

Do you know if we have these differences in organic cowmilk bought in supermarket in France?
 

Amazoniac

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Here's the mentioned discussion:
Jamie Ann - Your thoughts on BCM7? | Facebook

And here are selected parts:

Mathieu Lalonde The whole A2 versus A1 milk issue was a fabrication by New Zealand farmers who wanted to sell more milk fro their A2 producing cows. Anyone with basic chemistry and biochemistry knowledge can cut through the arguments that were provided by the A2 side. The original studies were in vitro and did not use the full spectrum of enzymes that human beings possess for digestion. Dipeptidyl Peptidase IV and Prolyl Endopeptidase have the ability to shred BCM7 to pieces. For more information see: (a) Teschemaker, H.; Umbach, M.; Hamel, U.; Praetorius, K.; Ahert-Hilder, G.; Brantl, V.; Lottspeich, F.; Henschen, A. J. No Evidence for the Presence of b-Casomorphins in Human Plasma After Ingestion of Cow’s Milk or Milk Products. Dairy Res. 1986, 53, 135–138. (b) Hill, J. P.; Crawford, R. A.; Boland, M. J. Milk and Consumer Health: A Review of the Evidence for a Relationship Between the Consumption of Beta Casein A1 with Heart Disease and Insulin Dependent Diabetes Mellitus. Proc. NZ Soc. Animal Production 2002, 62, 111–114. (c) Truswell, A. S. The A2 Milk Case: A Critical Review. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2005, 59, 623–631. (d) Chin-Dusting, J.; Shennan, J.; Jones, E.; Williams, C.; Kingwell, B.; Dart, A. Effect of Dietary Supplementation with b-Casein A1 or A2 on Markers of Disease Development in Individuals at High Risk of Cardiovascular Disease. British Journal of Nutrition. 2006, 95, 136–144

Jack Kruse I much prefer my fats and fat soluble vitamins from better sources. Dairy is not a great source especially in the USA. It is too processed and manufactured.

Jack Kruse And anyone who understand neuroimmunology knows that BCM 7 has a huge effect on the Th1 and Th2 and B cell production in Antibody production.

Mathieu Lalonde The effects of BMC7 are only manifested when the molecule is injected into human beings or lab animals. They do not manifest when the molecule is ingested. BMC7 is not detected in the guts of human beings when A1 milk is ingested. That is because of what I've mentioned earlier. The in vitro tests originally used to detect and isolate BMC7 did not have the full spectrum of human digestive enzymes. Human beings are fully capable of digesting BMC7. It is true that BMC7 is problematic when isolated from incomplete in vitro digestion and injected into human beings. However, there are no detrimental effects noted when A1 milk or BMC7 is ingested because human beings digest BMC7. Now if your view is that ilk is unhealthy, fine. Just don't use BMC7 to justify your position. Milk is calorically dense and not very satiating (liquids do not cause a whole lot of stomach distension), as such, it is easily over consumed. This can lead to weight gain excess calcium and other problems. Add lactose and casein intolerance to the mix and you have plenty of legitimate reasons to avoid dairy. BMC7 is not one of them, however.

Jack Kruse Matt that is what we believe to be true today......science, especially clinical science has a way of making yesterday beliefs tomorrows fallacy. Come take care of a few glioma patients post op and spin your beliefs. The people you and Robb deal with our outliers. And in a sense who I deal with are also outliers in the opposite direction. BCM-7 is being found to be a major problem in glioma especially oligodendroglioma patients with a pre existing history of Hashimoto's. These links are relatively new to clinical medicine. The links to neuro immune diseases is massive and relatively unknown to most clinicians unless they look under the rocks. I do because I treat outliers.

Jack Kruse enterolabs has been testing many of brain tumor patients and interestingly they are all having BCM 7 issues. When you test.......your beliefs sometimes get challenged. That is why I advocate a QS platform. I think patients need to ask better questions to get better answers. We do not know all but there are zero absolutes in science in my opinion.

Jack Kruse When you have BCM 7 AB's in your serum something is radically wrong. Many people with Neuro immune diseases have this when a clinician looks. Most do not even know the test is available. AB production comes from methyaltion defects that lower CD 4 and CD 8 ratio's.......this down regualtes T cells and allows B cell expansion......any inflammtion after that occurs further makes the imbalance worse. I have gone so far now to recommend that all AI patients get BCM 7 AB tests......guess what? Most are positive. That opened my eyes as a clinician about 18 months ago. Many non clinicians can ignore it because it is not in the literature they read or percieve credible. I get paid to keep people well. When you see this many people clustered with neuro immune diseases and BCM 7 you must look why. I agree with Matt to question everything, but the published literature is useless in this area right now for a clinician.

Cate Shanahan I agree, Jack, when you have ABs to food something is wrong. But the issue may not have begun with the food that the body has generated antibodies against. Food allergies are often taken to mean that the food is somehow inherently bad. But that's unlikely. Are cats inherently bad? I know a lot of people who are allergic to cats. But I don't think it's because we are evolutionarily not meant to live around cats. I think it's because those people who are allergic to cats have immune system problems that stem from inflammation.

Jack Kruse Cate is does tells us the problem is in the gut and has affect barrier function in the gut. The next barrier to go in my world is the BBB. In your world it is the lung. Cytokine storms are what underpins the differentiation of T cells. This is where molecular mimicry really becomes a nightmare. I think when someone makes an absolute statement that BCM 7 is not an issue.......I just cant get behind it even if you are Matt. He relies on the literature and I cant. I know it is not accurate....and up to date. I and I cant afford to wait for them to get it. The best course of action is to avoid the issue and cut dairy in my outliers.

Mathieu Lalonde The gut of infants is designed to be permeable. This allows the infants to absorb and use colostrum in the mother's milk to form a temporary immune system. The context I was working with was that of a healthy adult.

Mathieu Lalonde One thing to think about. In the context of a damaged gut, where propyl oligopeptidases are in lower concentration and intestinal permeability is increased, it is very plausible that BCM7 can pass through the gut, enter the bloodstream, and bioaccumulate. However, this does not mean that BCM7 is the cause of the problem. It is merely an indicator. The situation is akin to cholesterol and plaque formation in atherosclerosis. Just because cholesterol is found in plaque does not mean it is the causative factor. I will remain skeptical about BCM7 until I see carefully conducted research, not anecdotal evidence, that indicates harm.

Jack Kruse Matt I never said it was the primary cause........but it is a major problem for patients who are not like me you and Robb. Just as you pounded the table in AHS 2011 about scientific context I hope you realize that clinicians like me are asking you to consider our outliers when you speak.........your words carry weight with many paleo's but I have to tell you you really piss off a lot of patients. I respect your skills and your work but context is critical when someone is dealing with outliers. Cholesterol in athero sclerosis is like person being found at the scene of the crime.......you become guilty by association only. I understand fully your point about BCM-7........but I hope you understand my point as well.

Mathieu Lalonde I’m not necessarily pro- or anti-dairy. I inform people of the potential costs and benefits and let them decide. I’ve provided arguments against dairy in a previous post but BCM7 is not part of those arguments because, in my opinion, there is currently not enough information to vilify this peptide. Let me expand a little further here. Read the following article:

Dubynin, V. A.; Asmakova, L. S.; Sokhanenkova, N. Y.; Bespalova, Zh. D.; Nezavibat’ko, V. N.; Kamenskii, A. A. Comparative Analysis of Neurotropic Activity of Exorphines, Derivatives of Dietary Proteins. Bulletin of Experimental Biology and Medicine 1998, No 2, 131–134.

Virtually all of the research on BCM7 is performed in this manner. That is that the peptide is synthesized by a peptide synthesizer, or isolated from incomplete digestion of casein with pepsin, and then directly injected into the bloodstream. This is not physiologically relevant because casein is consumed orally and must be subject to digestion.

Take a look at the experients in this paper:

Kaminski, S.; Kostyra, E.; Cieslinska, A.; Fiedorowicz, E. Consumption of Bovine b-Casein Variants (A1 or A2) does not Affect Basic Hematological and Biological Indices. Milchwissenschaft 2012, 67(3), 238–241.

Gilts were fed A1 and A2 milk and the level of BCM7 in their bloddstream was monitored alongside basic hematological and biological indices. DPPIV destroyed BCM7, as I mentioned in a previous post. There was no difference between the basic hematological and biological indices fo the two groups.

Now read this paper:

Wasilewska, J.; Sienkiewicz-Szlapka, E.; Kuzbida, E.; Jarmolowska, B.; Kaczmarski, M.; Kostyra, E. The Exogenous Opioid Peptides and DPPIV Serum Activity in Infants with Apnoea Expressed as Apparent Life Threatening Events. Neuropeptides 2011, 45, 189–195.

BCM7 concentrations were slightly higher in the infants suffering from ALTE. However, the elevated BCM7 concentrations were due to DPPIV deficiencies. As I mentioned above, infants have increased intestinal permeability in order to absorb coostrum and form a temporary immune system. This research has to be interpreted within this context exclusively.

Now read this paper

Plaisancié, P.; Claustre, J.; Estienne, M.; Henry, G.; Boutrou, R.; Paquet, A.; Léonil, J. A Novel Bioactive Peptide from Yoghurts Modulates Expression of the Gel-Forming MUC2 mucin as well as Production of Goblet Cells and Paneth Cells Along the Small Intestine. Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry 2013, 24, 213–221.

Turns out that BCM7 increases mucin production in the gut. In this context, BCM7 would have a gut protecting effect. Small molecules often behave in this manner; positive effects in some aspects of human metabolism but negative in others. Things are always more complicated than they seem. Should we vilify insulin because it is elevated in metabolic syndrome? Insulin is essential to life. Thinking back on the previous paper, it is possible that BCM7 is found in higher concentrations during ALTE because it is useful, just like lipoprotein synthesis is increased during infections.

Finally, Jack mentioned that he has blood levels of BCM7 measured in his patients. I have searched and contacted friends who are clinicians. There is no BCM7 test available outside of academia. So Jack, how do you get this done exactly?

Jack Kruse https://www.enterolab.com/Default.aspx

Jack Kruse Mike one issue to be aware of.........one exposure to those at risk some believe can lead to 9 months of clinical changes. The group in Maryland has ironically found the same thing with gliadin/gluten and BCM 7 seems to use the DDPIV pathway as well. While Matt is correct that we dont have a smoking gun yet........when a clinician see fire they know without seeing it fire is somewhere. And we get paid to put fire out contrary to what many young paleo's believe. I am not sure I buy the BCM 7 story yet 100% but I think caution is smart in areas so new. On my site in the comment of the early BG series you will see a very interesting discussion of this topic with a gentleman named Bob Smith. You might like to read our back and forth. If you think this was interesting, I think you might be fascinated by what we talked about there. I think we must remain a skeptic but I would throw this last thought out there.........just because you dont believe it does not make it true. Those of us who have self taught ourselves to remain open to incongruent thoughts when compared to the literature see things differently than others. The lesson was taught to me the hard way in neurosurgery......when a life is on the line and you really do not know for sure because a research paper is published that muddies the water the closed mind will respond that this is moot issue. I used to be like that..........I no longer am because I have experienced lives on the line now for 20 yrs. Speaking only for me, It changed how I see bias and dogma on a foundational level.

Mathieu Lalonde Dr. Jack Kruse. I contacted Entero Lab and spoke with their personel. They do not measure BCM-7 or any other casein-derived peptides. They only determine sensitivity to casein.

Mathieu Lalonde Dr. Jack Kruse. Also, no one at Harvard med is studying BCM-7 in tumors. I inquired extensively.

Mathieu Lalonde Oh and I forgot to mention that Entero Labs milk sensitivity test is fecal. There is no way that this information can be employed to accurately determine the amount of BCM-7 in the bloodstream or brain, if any.

Kevin Cann Here is a good critical review and some background on BCM7. This review was critiqued later on, b ut I think Truswell makes a much stronger point,http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v59/n5/full/1602104a.html

Carly Caller The silence speaks volumes...
 

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