Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

narouz

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Dose-response effect of Bifidobacterium lactis HN019 on whole gut transit time and functional gastrointestinal symptoms in adults

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171707/

This randomized, triple-blind, placebo controlled, dose-ranging study provides Level I evidence that dietary consumption of B. lactis HNO 19 shortens WGTT in a dose-dependent manner and reduces the frequency of functional gastrointestinal symptoms in adults....
 

tara

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EnoreeG said:
I think there are problems with starches outside of the fact that they may sometimes reach the large intestine in unhealthy individuals. But for now, I want to say something about starches proceeding further than the small intestine.

I believe (but might be wrong) that many people following Ray's guidelines on eating are influenced by the following, or similar quotes

2. Starches can feed bacteria in the lower portion of the intestines if not digested quickly, increasing intestinal toxin burden and fermentation of carbohydrates which can stress the liver and produce changes in the metabolic rate, mood, and mediators of inflammation (like serotonin, estrogen, endotoxin). Excessive endotoxin exposure affects the liver’s production of cholesterol (not favorable).

“The upper part of the small intestine is sterile in healthy people. In the last 40 years, there has been increasing interest in the “contaminated small-bowel syndrome,” or the “small intestine bacterial overgrowth syndrome.” When peristalsis is reduced, for example by hypothyroidism, along with reduced secretion of digestive fluids, bacteria are able to thrive in the upper part of the intestine. Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria…Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.”

taken from Concerns with Starches
@EnoreeG
I agree that Peat seems to be saying that starches and some kinds of fibre are more likely to cause trouble in SI in people who have low motility, eg from hypothyroid. I agree that diet is probably a factor for many.
Since I don't usually have obvious symptoms of gut trouble, I don't severely restrict fibre and starch (though I no longer try to maximise fibre, either). I may experiment with different approaches at some time in the future.
Maybe leaky gut arising in part from a low fibre diet is a key contributor to hypothyroid or low motility states for some people, but I doubt that this is the only or key cause for everyone, and I disagree that Peat has not addressed other causes. There are many other problems with widely available diets (lack of nutrients, and presence of harmful ingredients). Peat has mentioned that fibre can be important for removing estrogens from the gut before they are reabsorbed. He has also discussed many other factors as potentially influential, eg increasing exposure to PUFAs, environmental estrogens, radiation, various other poisons and stressors, and insufficient sunlight, sleep, protein, carbohydrate, minerals and vitamins, meaningful engagement, etc. I'd prefer it if you were more cautious before asserting that 'Peat has not talked about ...'. I also see a number of people here and in other places who have been under-eating for a long time, and this is also a known potential cause of reduced metabolism.

Many of us here have serious health issues that mess with our lives on a day to day basis. If you read many threads here, I don't think you can help but notice that there are a lot of people here with digestive distress and/or hypothyroid issues. So these issues may be of central importance to a significant portion of forum posters.
Not surprising, given Peat's areas of expertise.
So comments along the lines of 'Most people don't have don't have to do/worry about x, y or z because healthy people can handle them' seem pretty irrelevant, not to say dismissive.
Sure there are relatively healthy people reading Peat, and posting here. But lets not dismiss the rest of us.

EnoreeG said:
I feel that people apply advice meant for someone definitely diagnosed with poor peristalsis or low motility to themselves, even though their SI is perfectly capable of digesting starch in a timely fashion. Not everyone reading Ray Peat has a hypothyroid condition. Not everyone has low motility. As I see it (and experience it personally) there is no reason to apply a hypothyroid diet, or any "low motility" diet unless you suffer from SIBO or other gut problem involving excess gas, Crohn's disease, etc.

Is this 'feeling' just coming to you across the ether, or are you reading it here? What I've read is lots of people experimenting, and some people finding it helpful and continuing, while others don't find it works for them and don't persist.
You seem to be presenting other theories as though they were established fact, while again dismissing Peat's points about endotoxin burden and serotonin excess, both of which may sometimes occur without obvious constipation or extreme gas.
 

EnoreeG

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tara said:
EnoreeG said:
I think there are problems with starches outside of the fact that they may sometimes reach the large intestine in unhealthy individuals. But for now, I want to say something about starches proceeding further than the small intestine.

I believe (but might be wrong) that many people following Ray's guidelines on eating are influenced by the following, or similar quotes

2. Starches can feed bacteria in the lower portion of the intestines if not digested quickly, increasing intestinal toxin burden and fermentation of carbohydrates which can stress the liver and produce changes in the metabolic rate, mood, and mediators of inflammation (like serotonin, estrogen, endotoxin). Excessive endotoxin exposure affects the liver’s production of cholesterol (not favorable).

“The upper part of the small intestine is sterile in healthy people. In the last 40 years, there has been increasing interest in the “contaminated small-bowel syndrome,” or the “small intestine bacterial overgrowth syndrome.” When peristalsis is reduced, for example by hypothyroidism, along with reduced secretion of digestive fluids, bacteria are able to thrive in the upper part of the intestine. Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria…Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.”

taken from Concerns with Starches
@EnoreeG
I agree that Peat seems to be saying that starches and some kinds of fibre are more likely to cause trouble in SI in people who have low motility, eg from hypothyroid. I agree that diet is probably a factor for many.
Since I don't usually have obvious symptoms of gut trouble, I don't severely restrict fibre and starch (though I no longer try to maximise fibre, either). I may experiment with different approaches at some time in the future.
Maybe leaky gut arising in part from a low fibre diet is a key contributor to hypothyroid or low motility states for some people, but I doubt that this is the only or key cause for everyone, and I disagree that Peat has not addressed other causes. There are many other problems with widely available diets (lack of nutrients, and presence of harmful ingredients). Peat has mentioned that fibre can be important for removing estrogens from the gut before they are reabsorbed. He has also discussed many other factors as potentially influential, eg increasing exposure to PUFAs, environmental estrogens, radiation, various other poisons and stressors, and insufficient sunlight, sleep, protein, carbohydrate, minerals and vitamins, meaningful engagement, etc. I'd prefer it if you were more cautious before asserting that 'Peat has not talked about ...'. I also see a number of people here and in other places who have been under-eating for a long time, and this is also a known potential cause of reduced metabolism.

Many of us here have serious health issues that mess with our lives on a day to day basis. If you read many threads here, I don't think you can help but notice that there are a lot of people here with digestive distress and/or hypothyroid issues. So these issues may be of central importance to a significant portion of forum posters.
Not surprising, given Peat's areas of expertise.
So comments along the lines of 'Most people don't have don't have to do/worry about x, y or z because healthy people can handle them' seem pretty irrelevant, not to say dismissive.
Sure there are relatively healthy people reading Peat, and posting here. But lets not dismiss the rest of us.

EnoreeG said:
I feel that people apply advice meant for someone definitely diagnosed with poor peristalsis or low motility to themselves, even though their SI is perfectly capable of digesting starch in a timely fashion. Not everyone reading Ray Peat has a hypothyroid condition. Not everyone has low motility. As I see it (and experience it personally) there is no reason to apply a hypothyroid diet, or any "low motility" diet unless you suffer from SIBO or other gut problem involving excess gas, Crohn's disease, etc.

Is this 'feeling' just coming to you across the ether, or are you reading it here? What I've read is lots of people experimenting, and some people finding it helpful and continuing, while others don't find it works for them and don't persist.
You seem to be presenting other theories as though they were established fact, while again dismissing Peat's points about endotoxin burden and serotonin excess, both of which may sometimes occur without obvious constipation or extreme gas.

Sorry, tara, I'm having a hard time relating to this. You quoted my last post a couple of time, but not the entire post. I scanned the entire post though and can't find either quote:

1) the 'Most People' you cite me as saying, (though on that pg 59 of the discussion Amazoniac did use that),
2) the 'Peat has not talked about ...' you cite me as saying.

If this was meant for me, I'll wait for you to rephrase and then try to understand your meaning.
 

narouz

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from Wiki.
(Our dear departed Stuart highly recommended these
as possessing exquisite fermentable fiber.
I've been eating one or two almost every evening.
I just copied one section of the Wiki article.
I bolded some interesting things...)


The Globe Artichoke (Cynara cardunculus var. scolymus)[1] is a variety of a species of thistle cultivated as a food...

Medical uses
The total antioxidant capacity of artichoke flower heads is one of the highest reported for vegetables.[15] Cynarine is a chemical constituent in Cynara. The majority of the cynarine found in artichoke is located in the pulp of the leaves, though dried leaves and stems of artichoke also contain it. It inhibits taste receptors, making water (and other foods and drinks) seem sweet.[16]

Studies have shown artichoke to aid digestion, liver function[citation needed] and gallbladder function, and raise the ratio of HDL to LDL.[17] This reduces cholesterol levels, which diminishes the risk for arteriosclerosis and coronary heart disease.[18] Aqueous extracts from artichoke leaves have also been shown to reduce cholesterol by inhibiting HMG-CoA reductase and having a hypolipidemic influence, lowering blood cholesterol.[19] Artichoke contains the bioactive agents apigenin and luteolin.[20] C. scolymus also seems to have a bifidogenic effect on beneficial gut bacteria.[21] Its effect in arresting pathogenic bacteria may be attributed to the notable presence of phenolic compounds. Both are higher in the baby anzio artichoke (Cyrnara scolymus).[22] Artichoke leaf extract has proved helpful for patients with functional dyspepsia,[23] and may ameliorate symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome.[24][25]


...

Cynarine is a hydroxycinnamic acid and a biologically active chemical constituent of artichoke (Cynara cardunculus).[1]
Chemically, it is an ester formed from quinic acid and two units of caffeic acid.
It inhibits taste receptors, making water (and other foods and drinks) seem sweet.[2]
It is an ingredient of the drug Sulfad.

...


Sulfad is a phytopharmaceutical bioactive compound including CAF-6 & CAF-8 (main active ingredient 1,5 dicaffeoylquinic acid, also known as cynarine), Mariana90 (main active ingredient > 70% silibinin or (2R,3R)-3,5,7-trihydroxy-2-[(2R,3R)-3-(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-2-(hydroxymethyl)-2,3-dihydrobenzol [1,4]dioxin-6-yl]chroman-4-one), Glyc-6 (main active ingredient glycyrrhizinic acid or (3β,18α)-30-hydroxy-11,30-dioxoolean-12-en-3-yl 2-O-β-D-glucopyranuronosyl-β-D-glucopyranosiduronic acid), turmeric (main active ingredient C.I. 75300 or (1E,6E)-1,7-bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6-heptadiene-3,5-dione).

Medicinal use
Sulfad is used in the management of different liver diseases including steatosis, steatohepatitis and viral hepatitis. It acts as potent antioxidant and hepatoprotective agent. Also it reduces triglycerides and LDL by different mechanisms

Antioxidant effects
Oxidative stress is defined as structural and/or functional injury produced in tissues by the uncontrolled formation of pro-oxidant free radicals. Sulfad preserves the functional and structural integrity of hepatocyte membranes by preventing alterations of their phospholipid structure and by restoring alkaline phosphatase and gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase activities. Cynarine in Sulfad plays a major role in the prevention of oxidative damage to hepatocyte membranes
.

Anti-inflammatory and anti-carcinogenic effects
Studies have shown that one of Sulfad's active constituents has a number of effects including inhibition of neutrophil migration, marked inhibition of leukotriene synthesis and formation of prostaglandins.

Liver regeneration
Sulfad produced a significant increase in the formation of ribosomes and in DNA synthesis, as well as an increase in protein synthesis. Interestingly, the increase in protein synthesis was induced by Sulfad only in injured livers, not in healthy controls.
As could be shown with isolated hepatocytes, Sulfad acts directly on the metabolism of the cell nucleus. Sulfad lead a normalization of the pathologically altered protein synthesis by increasing RNA synthesis. This improvement or normalization of the plasma protein picture, having been proven in several clinical studies
 

Suikerbuik

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You can't spoil an already spoiled thread, so let's make this one (more?) fishy.
pboy said:
but hey guys I heard it feeds beneficial bacteria!!! who cares if every tangible symptom would point as to it being a bad thing...I read on the internetz that beneficial bacteria r good for me!!!

Although I interpret your writings as partly sarcastic, and neither fermented products (give me flu-like symptoms) nor supplemental fibers suit me, that's not the case for everyone. Fiber, as a natural constituent of foods, is like sunlight; humans have evolved with it. Too much or in the wrong context (e.g. pufa laden or dysbiosis) and it is harmful, however avoiding both fiber and sunlight completely is rather stressful and restrictive. Neither vitamin D nor butyrate are something magic, as of spoken about by some, but both are important for optimal human functioning and in either case it is about a delicate balance.

"When inulin occurs naturally in foods such as asparagus and jerusalem artichokes it’s probably harmless, but I don’t think it has been investigated enough even to conclude that those plants are safe foods for frequent use." -- RP
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml
 

pboy

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yes humans might have evolved eating fiber...but if you want to become the uberman you must evolve even further and ditch the fiber

really though, if you think about it as plants not really wanting to be predated upon, and they only want their fruits eaten at certain times it makes sense. Genuinely ripe fruits that seem like they are targeting larger mammals only have cellulose mostly, and its almost indetectable when you eat it...think like a ripe melon of papaya, its there, the fiber, but its pretty much weightless and doesn't ferment or anything. But if you start talking roots, inulin, things like that, unripe hybrid apples (pectin), unripe bananas (pectin) ect, these are just non ideal foodstuffs. You can basically tell how bad it is by how much it ferments...inulin is terrible, if you eat such a tiny amount you might not notice it but try taking even like 4-5g plus of inulin and then tell me what you think. Sunlight and fiber are not even close to the same thing analogously
 

Kasper

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taking even like 4-5g plus of inulin and then tell me what you think.

I feel fine with 4-5 gram inulin. What do you feel ?

yes humans might have evolved eating fiber...but if you want to become the uberman you must evolve even further and ditch the fiber

I've tried ditching the fiber, no thanks. I feel and look a lot better with it.

You are just generalising your own specific case, and pretending everybody is like that pboy...

You can basically tell how bad it is by how much it ferments...

The more it ferment, the more short fatty acids, and the healthier my face looks...

Maybe if your gut flora is completely off, you will produce all kind of toxins while fermenting, but I'm pretty sure that is not that case for everybody. My guess is that the smell of your farts pretty much reflect this.
 

Suikerbuik

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Uberman, yeah I like that. Of course you would not want to eat unripe stuff.

Sure by their very essence they are very different, but I still think they are. Sunlight doesn't simply translate to vitamin D and so doesn't fiber simply translate to butyrate. However, both sunlight/vitamin D and fiber/butyrate, depending on the context, are directly involved in: stimulating metabolism, modulating inflammation, affecting membrane potential, regulating tight-junction integrity, modifying chromatin structure, inducing AMP expression, and altogether increase resistance to stress, regulate circadian rhythm and have long range anti-cancer effects.
 

pboy

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the more fiber I eat and fermentation going on, the worse my mood, motivation, sleep, and dreams. I don't see how something good would do that, and again, butyric acid having benefits is just internetz speculation, nothing has been proven about that, and equally its been shown to be immune system provoking and bad on the stomach. It smells and tastes terrible, the body would indicate a pleasant taste and smell if it wanted it. Do whatever you want tho guys
 

Suikerbuik

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Well yeah, I do get the same issues and do not supplement fiber, but starches and fresh fruits have fermentation potential too and will ferment anyway, however I do fine on those. I feel symptoms are indicative of a dysbalance, since I know of close relatives that are just fine with normal doses of fiber.. And it's not internet speculation pboy, it's part of rat-reality, however very likely to be happening in humans as well - at least in humans cells it does. You're also not supposed to supplement butyrate, and so you should be careful with vitamin D suppletion (another similarity). It's all about following one's own reality, so no argue. Glad we can all form our own opinions and express them. :fart , JK ;).
 
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What does it mean if 4-5 grams of pasta and tomatoes (to check cooking) give you gas for two days? Hopefully a few experts are left at this point :roll:
 

Nicholas

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Kasper said:
Maybe if your gut flora is completely off, you will produce all kind of toxins while fermenting, but I'm pretty sure that is not that case for everybody. My guess is that the smell of your farts pretty much reflect this.

i'm not sure that the differences in people's diets reflect gut flora being off - but adjusted to different individuals. While i do eat retrograded roots often and a ton of fruit fiber, i'm not sure that a fiber-free person is necessarily gut flora-impaired. Going by "gut", i believe that gut flora is something that has nothing as much to do with what you eat, but how frequently you eat. In other words, everyone's gut flora is healthiest when they are meeting the very specific demands of their body and meeting those demands consistently. who cares if someone can't "tolerate" something. it doesn't matter why - all that matters is that you are focusing on function, regulating blood sugar, and meeting all the demands of your life. since the body is always adapting and healing in this state, new foods can be tolerated later, or foods you always adored could become problems in the future, too. not doing great on certain foods doesn't necessarily mean somebody's metabolism is off.
 

narouz

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See, it happened again!
I've been subscribed to this thread for a long time.
Haven't received email notices of postings for like over a week.
See on the board index that postings have been made.
Check to find that I am unsubscribed!

Sorry to interrupt.
And I'm not bitching at you, Charlie. :)
Anybody else getting this?
(Like I've said...probably my Windows XP's fault...)
 

jyb

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pboy said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96865/ the more fiber I eat and fermentation going on, the worse my mood, motivation, sleep, and dreams. I don't see how something good would do that, and again, butyric acid having benefits is just internetz speculation, nothing has been proven about that, and equally its been shown to be immune system provoking and bad on the stomach. It smells and tastes terrible, the body would indicate a pleasant taste and smell if it wanted it. Do whatever you want tho guys

I find there's not much fermentation going on when I eat fibre now. I still avoid absolute worst offenders like beans. But eating a serving of veggies with fat, I don't get gas at all. PS. You know diary is rich in butyric acid right? You were born feeding on it.
 
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pboy

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well, veggies outside of crucifers are just cellulose...so there shouldn't be that much fermentation going on, none more than likely. But I avoid those particular ones just cause their tannin content, but its not that big a deal in reasonable amounts...or using small amounts of herbs. The worst offenders are probably in this order...raffinose/inulin/sorbitol/maltitol/oligocaccharide sugars, then resistant starch/gums, then pectin...but of course the volume matters..usually resistant starch comes in in higher amounts so it can be the worse thing, but the sugars are usually the worse cause they hold water osmoticaaly so they feel the heaviest and if they don't get fermented it might be worse, you get diaareah. Pectin doesnt necessarily ferment a ton, gums moreso, but they're still an issue cause of the cholesterol lowering properties, and according to ray althought its been forever since ive eaten any gums or mucilage, are like histamine promoters and/or mutagenic

human milk doesn't actually have any butyric acid, its only ruminants

fiber might be a non issue or it can be a big issue but its never an aid, really man, and to anyone else reading. Your mood and peristalsis have MUCH more to do, almost entirely to do, with energy supply to the gut, meaning thyroid, but in particular dopamine, and lack of NO. Your gut moves as your life moves, so being depressed as an example, or seeing futility in your day, not moving and grooving and getting your joy juices flowing, your gut reflects that, fiber or not. The body retains things in depressed states, and energy is poisoned and cut off in the electron transport chain, both in your brain, forebrain, and your gut, and bowel, by nitric oxide amongst other things. But u gotta trust me on this, if you really are living in an optimistic, joyous way, which usually involves some level of action and interacting with other people, your mood and gut and elimination are all great, even without any fiber. If you are in a depressed state, your mood and gut and elimination will be stagnant and feel weak and heavy, no matter with fiber or whatever you eat

if fiber helps you, or happens to be in foods that help you get in nutrition and it doesn't bother you, then its all good...but expecting it to, or thinking its the aiding factor in your gut health, elimination, or mood...you are mistaken
 

narouz

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Just to update on my (demonic) experimentation with eating soluble fiber...

Since Stewart asked this beautiful question,
and made suggestions if any wished to try his Fibrous Road to Recovery,
I've been eating one or two Globe Artichokes almost every day.
I took the inulin and FOS powder supplements a lot too,
but not everyday.

Well...I am a happier eater.
I really love eating those artichokes.
I had been, BS (Before Stewart), eating one or two pieces of sprouted spelt bread or soudough spelt bread.
And lately I've been eating some salads with tomato, cukes, green onion.
(I try to get organic, and think of Enoree as I eat. :) )
And some asparagus.

Actually, I think my gut is doing a little better.
My poops are more cohesive and malleable,
instead of little ragged pieces or sometimes diarrhea.

But I'm a terrible scientist,
because I introduce a lot of variables at one time.
So hard for me to tell exactly what might cause changes with me. :oops: -

Actually--and I should amplify on this in a different thread--
I lean toward thinking some of my good changes here just recently
might have been caused largely by my addition of a little D3 back into my diet via supplementation.
A few days ago I took 5000iu--a rather big dose for me.
That night I slept better than I have been for a long while.
I'd been experimenting with NOT taking ANY supplemental D3 for I guess about 4 or 5 months now
(amidst, of course, many other shifts in diet and supps),
but things had kinda plateaued,
and the sun has been behind the clouds on the weekends,
so I thought I would gingerly try some supplemental D3.

In addition to sleeping noticeably better,
the next day my poops also took a significant turn for the better.
So...I have my eye on this D3 question mark.

But coming back to soluble fiber:
What I can say
is that adding all that fiber into my diet did not do anything bad
as far as I can tell.
On the days I consumed a lot of the powdered supplemental fibers,
I did have some small but constant farting...not very stinky, I would note,
simply because I realize that everyone has been wondering about this particular detail.
Especially cantstoppeating. :D

This is not to naysay pboy's posts about his experiences with fiber eating.
Just to say...well, seems people are different in this respect. :)
 
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narouz said:
seems people are different in this respect. :)

Well in that case, how can you define "better" stools?
 

narouz

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