Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

Jennifer

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Peat's_Girl said:
dd99 said:
Amazoniac said:
Every breath you take, every move you make..

..and then I realize that Sting sounds like a creep in those songs. Imagine what's like for a girl to hear that!
Haha, yeah. My wife calls Every Breath You Take 'that stalker song'.

Only it's about his daughter...
PG, I tried to find where Every Breath You Take is about Sting's daughter, but all I got was that a pop up video stated that falsely. Do you remember where you heard that?

Supposedly Sting said in an interview that it's about jealousy, surveillance and ownership...

"In a 1983 interview with the New Musical Express, Sting explained: "I think it's a nasty little song, really rather evil. It's about jealousy and surveillance and ownership." Regarding the common misinterpretation of the song, he added: "I think the ambiguity is intrinsic in the song however you treat it because the words are so sadistic. On one level, it's a nice long song with the classic relative minor chords, and underneath there's this distasteful character talking about watching every move. I enjoy that ambiguity. I watched Andy Gibb singing it with some girl on TV a couple of weeks ago, very loving, and totally misinterpreting it. (Laughter) I could still hear the words, which aren't about love at all. I pissed myself laughing."

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=548
 

narouz

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I've been thinking about a general Peat idea concerning gut bacteria...

Peat says that trying to starve filamentous bacteria and yeast
by removing sugars from the diet is a self-destructive strategy
because then those critters are forced to seek food in (and even through, I guess)
the gut membrane.
If you give them the sugars, then they are satisfied and quiescent,
not needing to bother our gut linings.
So sayeth Peat.

Okay.
But if Stuart is right about fermentable fiber being bacteria's favorite food,
then couldn't the same result be expected from denying them that fiber?
 

EnoreeG

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Stuart said:
Actually Such_ would be a fascinating candidate for the Ubiome or American Gut stool bacteria analysis. in fact I think Peatarians generally might benefit from discovering that their microbiomes are doing fine from the amount of fermentable fiber a stereotypical Peat diet provides. Any volunteers :)

I volunteered - already, via American Gut. The results are fascinating, and will be on hand as more and more information comes out in the future on how to interpret the significance of different genera, or the significance of different predominant genera. One thing you receive in your results from American Gut is a taxa (list) of the most prominent genera found in the sample. What is interesting, even though you don't get a complete list of everything, is that you see they go far enough to tell you the genus of what's there down to fractions of only 1/100 of a percent (.01%). About 1/4 of the 71 genera reported in my gut are each representing at, or less than .01% of the total bulk. So all together they represent still just less than .2 percent of the total!

Of the other genera (55 different ones), which combined represent the other 99.8 %, most of those also each represent less than 1% of the total. The top 4 genera represent about 69% of my gut genome. That's not just 4 species though. The taxa is not detailed enough to show actual species counts. Still, you get Phylum, Class, Order and Family names which you can go research on Wiki and learn some things about each.

So yes, I agree, that if you can afford the cost, you might invest in a gut inventory and keep it around for rumination as the explanatory data trickles in. Also, it might be really interesting when you get a second or third assay, to see the difference you experience from changing your diet. Eventually all this will be part of a standard test panel, I'm sure, if the gut microbiome maintains it's current weight as a significant predictor of health.
 

EnoreeG

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narouz said:
I've been thinking about a general Peat idea concerning gut bacteria...

Peat says that trying to starve filamentous bacteria and yeast
by removing sugars from the diet is a self-destructive strategy
because then those critters are forced to seek food in (and even through, I guess)
the gut membrane.
If you give them the sugars, then they are satisfied and quiescent,
not needing to bother our gut linings.
So sayeth Peat.

Okay.
But if Stuart is right about fermentable fiber being bacteria's favorite food,
then couldn't the same result be expected from denying them that fiber?

Yes, I think Peat is right to say to not try to starve bacteria and yeast. But not so much because you need the sugar or because the bacteria need it, but because it's a futile effort. As Stuart cited a link yesterday that said:

Stuart's citation said:
Let me state for the record that there is no possibility of ever eradicating Candida. It’s been with you since you were born, and it will accompany you to the grave. It’s a normal part of your gut ecology, and as long as it’s kept in check by beneficial gut bacteria, it’s totally harmless.

There's two parts to the sugars thing though. Peat is right elsewhere when he says bacteria do harm in the small intestine and should be minimized there. The cure, as he says, it not to remove the sugars, but to discourage the bacteria. This is done by the use of fiber (which he considers a necessary evil, to push the food bolus on forward, and thus keep the bacteria and yeast confined mostly in the large intestine, thus his "carrots" philosophy).

Bacteria will change in numbers and predominance of species based on the food available. As Stuart pointed out, a species can practically die off in 20 minutes, or can triple in numbers in that time. So it's important to have your ileocecal valve close to keep bacteria out of the small intestine (somewhat). Of those getting in, certain species will dominate if they feast on sugars, because that is what is there in spades. Remember? even the starches you ate are converted first to simple sugars before being absorbed. Other, non-sugar loving species won't really start digesting the endothelium, but will just die. I don't see bacterial damage of the gut unless you get rid of the dominant good guys, and end up with pathogens in charge. Then, they are not just eating the gut, they are invading and going systemic. See this on pathogenic bacteria creating biofilms for protection as they start doing damage:

http://gutcritters.com/why-raw-garlic-may-be-your-guts-best-friend/

So I don't see that "feeding sugar loving bacteria, as you would ducks at the lake with bread crumbs" is a solution. If you don't feed small intestinal microbes sugar, they aren't going to eat your gut as long as the germs that are there are still dominated by commensal species. They are just going to die off a bit. Same with large intestinal microbes. You drastically reduce their numbers when you provide little fiber. A poop is 80% dead microbes. Gone. The remaining critters have to eat to multiply. If you've got no fiber for them, and all the other food was digested in the small intestine, essentially the large intestinal microbes just die, or form spores. Hopefully, you don't starve all of them so much that the dominant commensal species don't remain dominant. That's when you have real trouble.

So it's still about dominance. It's not about bacteria in general being attracted to "eating your gut". This is not a characteristic of bacteria, to eat living, immuno-protected cells. Look at your skin. It's crawling with bacteria. Look in your mouth, same story. And the bacteria there that you don't see are seeking food, every second. They don't make an inroad until you introduce an injury, etc. So generally, everything is fine. Your skin is your proof.

But let your skin, or your mouth, or your gut get unhealthy (insufficient nutrition, stress, etc.) AND let your dominant species also lose dominance, and then is when you might get an invasion from pathogens. Ever wonder why an animal licks a wound? It's introduction of extra commensals from the saliva onto an area of potential attack by pathogens. A good move. :P
 

Giraffe

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Detrimental effects of fermentation of proteins?

Amazoniac said:
Instead of being concerned with the fermentation of carbs, I think discussing the fermentation of proteins is much wiser because it's way more detrimental.
Amazoniac, could you explain this please? - How does it happen? What's the impact?
 

pboy

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Re: Detrimental effects of fermentation of proteins?

well anything with sulfur in it when fermented creates hydrogen sulfide gas which not only smells horrible, like rotting sewer ***t (think your average public bathroom) but it inhibits cell respiration and mucus production, so it leads to constipation cause the stool cant be lubed properly and coagulated proteins get hardened. Think your average american
 

Amazoniac

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I had some notes to some review article but couldn't remember which one was but they pointed that carbohydrates are preffered over proteins for the fermentation of SCFA, so fermentation of proteins only occurs when most of the carbs are depleted, thus farther in the colon. The proteins can be dietary or even mucus and epithelial cells, I suspect that this includes some problems that people encounter when they consume gelatin that wasn't properly dissolved; their fermentation is often problematic and as a coincidence the distal colon (closer to the end) is the most common part that problems appear.
When someone manufactures butyrate in their gut, it's accompained by acetate in much larger proprotions. So acetate could be the limiting factor here. I don't know the safe range though.
Butyrate seems to stimulate the absorption of sodium and wasser, the review suggests.
When they evaluated the butyrate concentrations in blood, they noticed that it was low, compared to what was being generated, therefore it's implied that the majority of it is used in the epithelial layer, and a fraction reaches the liver.
The studies done correlating higher intake of fibers and as a consequence higher SCFA generation and lower incidence of cancer in the colon are confounding. There are many variables that can play a role, as an example, higher intake of fiber usually speeds transit time, therefore less fermentation. The composition of the gut microbes also influence how fermentable carbs will behave.
It is suggested that the normal colon activity is marked by low-grade inflammation, that helps to signal the immune system.
When researchers claim that most of our immune system is located in the gut, it makes sense; all of our parts that come in contact with the exterior, or even exchange with the exterior in the case of lungs and intestines, must have an effective protection. It's best to avoid what's undesirable to enter, than let everything in and then try to eliminate.
Back to the low-grade inflammation, high or low fecal concentrations of butyrate are indicators of problems, both of them are common in ulcerative colitis.
In order to replicate the butyrate produced in fermentation, in labs researches have to coat the butyrate in order to deliver only at the colon. This is another indicator that ingesting SCFA isn't the same as obtaining by fermentation.
There are many studies proposing the anti-inflammatory effects of butyrate, mainly by supressing NF-kB activation. It's also correlated with mucus thickness.
As narouz commented, removing fermentable carbs from the diet may have that effect that Ray describes, but I suspect that it's due to impaired pboythedumbnessdeficientbeing mucosal barrier. That leaves the intestines susceptible to pathogens that are naturally present there, and when they are starved, they'll seek nourishment directly from the bloodstream. Just a speculation..
Different types of carbs have different actions on the mucosal layer, some of them are proposed to stimulate a certain type of mucus, this suggests that it's best to eat a wide range of fermentable carbs in decent amounts, instead of supplementing with one type in insane amounts.
It's worth mentioning that in one study they found that large doses of supplemental butyrate increased intestinal permeability.
In weaning children, the concentration of SCFA is usually found low, which might indicate that it requires some maturation in the process.
 

pboy

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Re: Detrimental effects of fermentation of proteins?

lol^^

btw giraffe how did you learn to talk and write?!?
 

Giraffe

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Re: Detrimental effects of fermentation of proteins?

@ Amazoniac: Thanks for the link and the information in the 'breast milk fiber thread'.

Lacking some basics, it's ardous for me to understand what I read ... Help please!

What role do SCFA play?
 

jyb

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Amazoniac said:
In weaning children, the concentration of SCFA is usually found low, which might indicate that it requires some maturation in the process.

If true this to me would raise the question of how much SCFA is really necessary for a healthy gut if the diet is good.
 

Suikerbuik

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Stuart said:
Such_ Saturation was a bit cagey, but you eat fruit ,vegetables and bone broth? If so, why do you think you're not already providing your microbiota with fermentable fiber?
Mmmh, where do I suggest that? I think I am and that is basically all I can do and therefore don’t focus on it (anymore).

Stuart said:
So please, can we dispense with this bizarre notion that a Peat diet makes either your upper digestive tract or your colon bacteria free.
I don't think that notion exists, but done that already long time ago.
 

YuraCZ

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Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/
 

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Amazoniac

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Re: Detrimental effects of fermentation of proteins?

Giraffe said:
@ Amazoniac: Thanks for the link and the information in the 'breast milk fiber thread'.

Lacking some basics, it's ardous for me to understand what I read ... Help please!

What role do SCFA play?

Most of the SCFA obtained by fermentation in the gut comes from carbs, a minority from proteins. Like I wrote in the previous post, proteins are fermented when the majority of carbs already have by the end of the colon, and their by-products are detrimental, especially in excess. This means that it's important to have your metabolism and digestive coordination funcionting properly, the rest is a consequence. A diet with different types of carbs is probably best for many reasons, including gut health. The best way to create stability is to fragment whatever you are dealing with; because whenever you concentrate the resources, it takes just a shift to mess the whole system; on the other hand, if you have a fragmented system, the swings compensate each other. Applying to fermentable carbs and gut health, when you eat a wide range of those foods, you avoid nourishing only certain strains and favour diversity and stability, avoiding building a leaviathan inside that has power over you..
 

Amazoniac

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YuraCZ said:
Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/

Adding some fats to your meals also aid the flow of the process..
 

EnoreeG

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jyb said:
Amazoniac said:
In weaning children, the concentration of SCFA is usually found low, which might indicate that it requires some maturation in the process.

If true this to me would raise the question of how much SCFA is really necessary for a healthy gut if the diet is good.

jyb, on Amazoniac's first point -- weaning: if talking about the time when whole foods are introduce (but nursing is still continuing) as opposed to when the nursing is drawing to an end (and this could be months, or even a year apart), then the mom's milk is relatively low in oligosaccharides, (which Stuart's OP equated to fiber - (because it functions as fiber in that it generates SCFA in the gut) at the time of weaning yet the infant is not yet getting substantial fibrous foods, so SCFA generation in the gut will be low. There is a gradual reduction of oligosaccharides throughout nursing:

oligosaccharides vary between individuals and over the course of lactation

From other readings, this drop in milk "fiber" also takes place during lactation in other mammals.

On your own second point -- how much SCFA is necessary: I think several of us have broached this already and I at least have said "none" as regards nutrition. The body is perfectly capable of nurturing the gut without the supplemental SCFA generated by the microbes.

But someone offered that there is an immune/SCFA connection, dependent also with SCFA amounts. I'm not very conversant with this aspect, so will allow others to respond on this point, though I found it was quite easy to find articles that say that the immune/T-reg strength is definitely dependent on the availability of SCFA in the lower gut:

short-chain fatty acids regulate colonic Treg cell homeostasis

edit - add: Amazoniac, if you happen to find the reference for all the things you stated from it, along with this one quote that jyb gave, please catch us up. I'd like to read the study.
 

YuraCZ

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Amazoniac said:
YuraCZ said:
Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/

Adding some fats to your meals also aid the flow of the process..
Eating more fat will help with mucoid plaque? I think I need more fiber. What you think EnoreeG? I will continue with psyllium husk powder and bentonite clay..
 

EnoreeG

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YuraCZ said:
Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/

That link came out? That's astounding! The link is worthwhile reading also. Who would have guessed.

Actually, I tried a gut purge several times about 9 years ago and nothing at all remarkable came out. I felt I'd wasted my money on the colon clense, but I was happy that it seemed to prove that my gut was healthy.

Your article is great at explaining the phlegm-foods / mucus-thickening / absorption blockage issue, and also the causes of phlegm being sugar, citrus and milk. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people on a strict Peat diet are suffering from the symptoms explained in the article. Thanks for sharing! (and excuse the misconstruing).
 

YuraCZ

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EnoreeG said:
YuraCZ said:
Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/

That link came out? That's astounding! The link is worthwhile reading also. Who would have guessed.

Actually, I tried a gut purge several times about 9 years ago and nothing at all remarkable came out. I felt I'd wasted my money on the colon clense, but I was happy that it seemed to prove that my gut was healthy.

Your article is great at explaining the phlegm-foods / mucus-thickening / absorption blockage issue, and also the causes of phlegm being sugar, citrus and milk. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people on a strict Peat diet are suffering from the symptoms explained in the article. Thanks for sharing! (and excuse the misconstruing).
http://www.mucusfreelife.com/mucusless- ... iet-f-a-q/
One my nail looks as bad as in the pictures here. I think I need some drastic changes in my diet. I eat eggs, meat, kefir etc. every day. I'm so confused omg.. What I'm supposed to eat. :cry:
 

Amazoniac

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YuraCZ said:
Amazoniac said:
YuraCZ said:
Interesting. This came out of me a few days ago when I took bentonite clay with psyllium husk powder... It make sense. I think that's why I'm always constipated. My colon is dry without mucus layer. So my poop is stuck and can't go out..
http://www.alambracentre.com/eczema-and ... -and-diet/

Adding some fats to your meals also aid the flow of the process..
Eating more fat will help with mucoid plaque? I think I need more fiber. What you think EnoreeG? I will continue with psyllium husk powder and bentonite clay..

I would not supplement if I wasn't sure, just my opinion.

I would:
- get enough vit D. If I'm not wrong, it plays a role in proper mucosal function
- up your vit C intake
- make some days a week stews with bone marrow. You can refrigerate to skim off the fat layer that forms
- make sure you are getting enough zinc/copper, selenium and magnesium
- adding fat to your meals enough to make them taste the best
- keep the eggs
- experimenting with various types of fermentable carbs in modest amounts
- avoiding the powdered psyllium for a while
- prepare a pboyster soup once in a while
 

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