Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

narouz

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Let's say you move in with a sick person.
And--as in the article--your microbiome shifts towards that sick person's.
And, likewise, the sick person's microbiome shifts towards yours.

Lots of stuff to wonder about....
 

narouz

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EnoreeG

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narouz said:
Let's say you move in with a sick person.
And--as in the article--your microbiome shifts towards that sick person's.
And, likewise, the sick person's microbiome shifts towards yours.

Lots of stuff to wonder about....

narouz, you continue to amaze.

Science is now delving into the effects of the atmospheric microbiome on weather, since microbes constitute around 25% of the particulate material in the troposphere, and higher levels above that layer.

Germs you breathe also affect the weather

Back on topic, if you find benefits from additions of fiber to your diet, here's some good news. Fiber, by feeding the microbiome which produces short chain fatty acids in the colon, allows reduction of any inflammation in the gut and elsewhere in the body. This may not be a concern of yours, but people suffering from metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance and full blown diabetes can take some relief in this fact and consider fiber a friend:

Diabetes, obesity and gut microbiota

Microbes, feeding on fiber also contribute to restoring insulin sensitivity in individuals suffering from metabolic syndrome (about 1/3 of the developed world lately).

The effect of microbes on insulin release
 

BingDing

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Such_Saturation said:
post 101292 Narouz, females living together synchronize menstrual cycles, pendulums on a wall synchronize the beat, etc.

Such, pendulums do not synchronize. That's udder nonsense :)

I read the beginning of this thread and lost interest.

The "80% of the immune system is in the gut" thing refers to the lymphatic tissue of the gut wall itself, which contains 80% of mainly immunoglobulin A (IgA)-bearing cells. It has nothing to do with bacteria and microbes in the gut.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/quest ... n-your-gut

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2515351/
 
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narouz

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So sayeth these two articles/essays.
It seems...odd to me to decree the existence of strict dividing lines
betwixt gut microbes & gut wall & gut wall lymph tissue.
Like semi-permeable bi-layer membranes and pumps and such....


“You need to let the little things that would ordinarily bore you suddenly thrill you.”
― Andy Warhol
 

BingDing

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Well, I might have been a little harsh, just wanted to emphasize that the immune system is comprised of cells in the tissues. IgA, T cells, etc are not produced by gut bacteria. A strict dividing line is appropriate where it exists.

The second article says

GALT interacts strictly with gastrointestinal functions in a dynamic manner; for instance, by increasing intestinal permeability in replay (sic, reply?) to particular stimulations, or orientating the immune response towards luminal content, allowing either tolerance or elimination/degradation of luminal antigens, or sometimes provoking damage to the intestinal mucosa, such as in coeliac disease or food allergy.

GALT is gut-associated lymphoid tissue. So it is a dynamic, responsive system.

I think it is interesting that the second article also says

Studies conducted in the last 20 years suggest that a diet without the major sensitizing proteins (mainly from cow's milk and hen's egg) has no real advantage in terms of protection from allergy in the newborn.
 

EnoreeG

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BingDing said:
post 107449 Well, I might have been a little harsh, just wanted to emphasize that the immune system is comprised of cells in the tissues. IgA, T cells, etc are not produced by gut bacteria. A strict dividing line is appropriate where it exists.

I appreciate your thoughts, BingDing. I'll put in an article I've come across that may show there is often not really "a strict dividing line" between the part of the human immune system that is comprised of human cells, and the part that is comprised of bacterial cells. It seems from reading on this for the last year or two that bacteria modulate the human immune cell response. That is, bacteria can aid the cells that you define as "on the human side" of the immune system such that they have more robust responses to disease, inflammation, etc.

And that is not to say that the gut bacterial population don't provide immune assistance all by themselves, without any human interaction. They apparently do this also. A simple example is the proven situation of bacteria producing vitamins used by the human.

On bacterial modulation:

Bacteroides / endothelial interactions

On reading this, keep in mind that the few species in the Genus Bacteroides comprise fully 25% of the human gut microbiome in an average adult. That's close to one pound of these creatures in each and every human gut. Literally hundreds of species make up the rest of a human gut population, but these particular Bacteriodes species tend to be quite important, just by themselves. Don't forget though that other microbes also interact with human gut cells. I'm just not providing proof of this at this time.

If you aren't really interested in reading about such a predominant species and it's general effect on our health, you may just seek out the section headed with
Cross talk between Bacteroides and the intestinal cells and proceed from there.

Speaking of T-regs, there's a large discussion of t cells in that document, showing ways that bacteria enhance production of inflammation modulating substances such as interleukin-10. Further, there is mention that one species of Bacteroides actually helps human cells produce antibiotics used locally against specific pathogens.

"In animal models, B. thetaiotaomicron can stimulate production of an antibiotic Paneth cell protein (Ang4) that can kill certain pathogenic organisms (e.g., Listeria monocytogenes)"

Only alluded to very modestly in the article, but possibly most responsible for the "70% of the immune system" that the gut (and it's microbes) are given credit for, is the fact that symbiotic species in the gut flat out dominate pathogens 24/7. A human would be dead meat if it weren't for this simple fact of life. There's really no way to quantify the "percent of the immune system" attributed to bacteria because of this fact. It takes a powerful lot of pathogens, such as salmonella, to overwhelm a healthy population of symbiotic microbes which seemingly take their lives and their environment very seriously. Hundreds of species of commensal bacteria know quite well how to get along with each other, how to identify and suppress pathogens that would threaten the host, and they are so good at their job that the host, to this day, doesn't recognize all the friendliness going on in the gut. Thanks to science though, we are discovering that our lives, minute by minute, actually seem to depend on the protection that bacteria offer. Pathogens are real, and they are deadly. It's only our relationship with bacteria which know how to keep pathogens in very small numbers that allow us to live. Beneficial bacteria do a lot of things to help and interact with the human immune cells, but possibly the most important thing the beneficials do is keep the numbers of pathogens at a very safe level.

This is an interesting article on the interaction between bacteria and the host's ability to produce T-regs:

Bacterial effect on Tregs
 
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BingDing said:
post 107434
Such_Saturation said:
post 101292 Narouz, females living together synchronize menstrual cycles, pendulums on a wall synchronize the beat, etc.

Such, pendulums do not synchronize. That's udder nonsense :)

I read the beginning of this thread and lost interest.

The "80% of the immune system is in the gut" thing refers to the lymphatic tissue of the gut wall itself, which contains 80% of mainly immunoglobulin A (IgA)-bearing cells. It has nothing to do with bacteria and microbes in the gut.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/quest ... n-your-gut

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2515351/

hmmm how mysterious :roll:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... years.html
 
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Fractality

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I don't know the gram numbers but I will start measuring once I get a scale. My plan is to start measuring objective data that I can track with pulse and temp. My simple sugars are from lactose and galactose from skim milk (no vitamins added. In CA we have the only brand that you can buy that has no vitamins added, unless you go to a farm, or buy traditional cream on top whole milk in glass jar and use an electronic cream seperator), fruits, fruit juice, a bit of sucrose, a bit of honey, maple syrup, molasses, sugarcane juice, coconut sugar, with lactose and fructose being the bulk and the others being like condiments.

I live in CA too (SoCal) and have not seen a brand of skim milk without vitamins added. Where do you find it? Thanks
 
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Thanks - which store(s) did you find that brand of milk in? I haven't seen it in any Whole Foods I've been in.

Whole Foods stopped selling it years ago. Only smaller health food stores carry it and not every one of them always does. They also sell at farmers markets.
 
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Wagner83

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@Amazoniac you recently quoted the beneficial effects of exercise on gut health including a higher production of butyrate. You often recommend anti - fermentation measures be added to foods, fibers included. It's also pretty obvious that many fibers lead to issues. What is your current take on all of this? How do we produce more butyrate, reap the benefits without rotting our inside out?
 

Collden

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Anyone familiar with Karen Hurds ideas on soluble fibre and the enterohepatic circulation?

It seems proper bile flux is very important to get rid of toxins and health in general, and for this you need both a high rate of bile secretion and a high rate of bile excretion. So besides dietary components that stimulate bile production like fat, protein, caffeine, you also need to efficiently get rid of old toxin-saturated bile, and for this you need soluble fiber, i.e. legumes, fruits and veggies. It seems most traditional food cultures on the planet generally try their best to remove insoluble fiber from the diet via refining of grains, but place equal importance on retaining sources of soluble fibers.

I've noticed when consuming beans that they generally dont taste very good in a frugal low-fat meal, but are delicious when combined in a meal that also includes fat and protein, I think because the combination of fat/protein and soluble fiber in a meal will promote both the excretion of old bile and generation of new bile.
 

Amazoniac

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@Amazoniac you recently quoted the beneficial effects of exercise on gut health including a higher production of butyrate. You often recommend anti - fermentation measures be added to foods, fibers included. It's also pretty obvious that many fibers lead to issues. What is your current take on all of this? How do we produce more butyrate, reap the benefits without rotting our inside out?
Keeping transit time in the intestines very short, so that even small amounts of carbs that pass undigested due to their nature are enough to keep bactaeria entertained and prevent their rebelling. Many issues can be corrected when this aspect alone is improved, but I guess that's because it's a consequence of the body getting what it needs.
 
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SamYo123

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@Xplus
The bacteria in our gut needs soluble fiber. Breast milk contains a lot of it. After weaning if you eat enough whole fruit , inulin containing vegetables, or any of the many other food sources of soluble fiber, you'll continue to feed your gut bacteria properly. If you stop, you'll develop gut dysbiosis. And some people with gut dysbiosis will manage to soldier on with the gut bacteria eating the mucus lining of their colon until... they develop some symptom of the damage that has been being done. There are so many permutations and combinations of gut permeability. Unfortunately that is the way the human body is designed. I think we have to complain to evolution if we don't like it.
The easier approach is to just accept the design, eat enough soluble fiber for your guts design due. Whole fruit is packed with pectin. and many vegetables contain heaps of inulin. And even simply prepared, both are delicious. It's not very difficult to do.
And your gut bacteria will repay you in whole body health a thousand fold. Eat enough dirt to ensure the right bacteria are present, feed them enough soluble fiber to keep them happy, and relax.
Of course if you've already got some level of SIBO, or some other downstream health consequence of post weaning lack of soluble fiber intake it becomes so much more complicated...
Stuart.


+1 If i dont get soluble fiber my face becomes red with seb dermatitis, i noticed when i started eating oats, my only source of souble fiber i became to take daily poops (well formed stools) and my seb derm started to reduce
 

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