Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

@Cantstop_
I'm curious why you think anyone hates you. You do seem a very angry person though.

Stuart said:

@Cantstop_
I'm curious why you think anyone hates you. You do seem a very angry person though.

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It's a meme I posted in jest. Don't be so melodramatic.

I'm more curious as to why you continue to ignore rational points and justify gut bacteria for optimal health only because we evolved with gut bacteria. You keep dodging this point.

It almost looks like you're just here to troll.

Is CSP male or female?

The immature thing to do is make this a forum-wide issue and invoke Dr. Peat when really it's about you personally being upset about my blunt challenge of your points.

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I'm not getting upset by people that try to passionately put their message across, even if I think the message is just plain wrong. It's about the tone your put message across. The way you express yourself is as an authorian: "Try to read carefully, and follow along, I'm about to drop some serious knowledge."

I think most users in this forum agree more with the tone that Danny Roddy shares:

"Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.
Think for yourself and question authority. Trust no one, including me."

I haven't seen any good arguments, from your side, and I've seen very well written arguments from Stuarts side. I'm not saying this makes Stuart right and you wrong. The only way a person can get to good health is by perceiving, thinking and acting. In the end it is about personal experience. You can say that n=1 says nothing scientifically, but if this n=1 is you, is says everything you need to know. Similarly n=100000 may say nothing for you personally, if you are this one person that just needs to do something else to get better health.

I'm more curious as to why you continue to ignore rational points and justify gut bacteria for optimal health only because we evolved with gut bacteria.

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I think it is the opposite, you keep ignoring rational points about the importance of your microbiome, only because we live in a different environments then we used to live. We evolved with microbiomes for million of years, and know you think we can live without them, just because we are now in a period where you could choose to live in a sterile room (instead of playing outside in the dirt, which is much more fun anyways).

I find it much more likely that we can't adapt that soon. And besides that, you ignore the argument completely that you can't get rid of your microbiome permanently, even if you try hard with antibiotics.

@CSP
So... you promised me some 'serious knowledge'
Well?

Kasper said:

It is disgusting and only proves that she doesn't understand the fundamental massage that ray peat is trying to put across.

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Kasper said:

I'm not getting upset by people that try to passionately put their message across, even if I think the message is just plain wrong. It's about the tone your put message across. The way you express yourself is as an authorian: "Try to read carefully, and follow along, I'm about to drop some serious knowledge."

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Exactly. That's the irony in the whole thing. Listen to Peat talk, and he says the words "probably" a lot and "I think." Peat is a gentle person. I used to be aggressive but I've realized how stupid it is. It makes you feel good in the moment but to everyone else you start to look stupid, even if you are making good points. Being aggressive on forums is just a way of dealing with dissatisfaction in your own life, or unhappiness. I got over it. Sometimes it's hard to read someones tone though typed words but it's usually easy to see aggression, which is not necessary. Just make your points without slight ad hominem. Ask questions to clarify what one means. Make your arguments. Discuss. Jokes are fun, but aggression is stupid.

CSP may say "debunking your points doesn't make me aggressive." Debunking, or more accurately, arguing, can be done passionately without aggressiveness and ad hominem.

The non-moderation of peatarian allowed me to pontificate both pro-peat and anti-peat things and simply just silly things. The moderation here has taught me how silly I looked. I'm embarrassed when I read CSP's posts now because I was just like him/her. It takes one to know one:

cantstoppeating said:

Which leads me to believe all you do is selectively read Peat and a few studies then come onto these forums and wax lyrical about co2 levels and uncouplers and how they should 'melt fat' all the while consuming 4-6kcal and being sedentary.

For all I know you're a slightly overweight guy who's been Peating for a while now and is propagating such claims because in theory they're supposed to work but they haven't.

Please don't misinform people. If you want us to take your claims seriously, post a pic of your waistline otherwise let's not perpetuate hyperbolic claims.

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cantstoppeating said:

I'd put money on the fact that you're somewhat overweight.

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"I bet you have a gut and/or manboobs" - Me, many times to different people.

cantstoppeating said:

Now unless you're going to post a picture of your waistline like you said you would, please drop the matter, you're just embarrassing yourself with your continuous dodging and squirming. We already know you're full of -- quite frankly -- B.S.

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I've said that a lot too. I actually agree with CSP on his/her views on bodyfat but I just can't talk in that tone anymore because I know how it makes me look.

cantstoppeating said:

You asked a question, got the answer, then dodged it and continued talking rubbish.

You really should take yourself back to a paleo/kruse discussion board where you can indulge your irrational fascination with the microbiome without critical thought.

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CSP, listen to the OTBOAT interview at 41 minutes and 33 seconds and listen to what Jeremy says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2493&v=cY0QqoJM7LU

Also, Such_Saturation's snide remarks are a form of aggression. Notice when there is something that is contrary to his worldview, a short, witty punch line attempt remark comes out instead of an honest dialogue.

Postby Stuart » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:43 pm

@ Tara
You mentioned 'excess' serotonin. Most people on this forum always seem to refer to 'minimizing' serotonin. So is there some ideal amount of serotonin? Also if every time you recall a happy memory your brain is flooded with a surge of serotonin, isn't that a good thing?

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Oh dear

Please stop trolling this forum Stuart it's getting boring.
You don't seem to have a good grasp on Peats ideas so maybe spend a little more time reading his site and less time just repeating your opinion.

I agree that you should know a bit more about Ray Peat's view on serotonin if you are going to post here. But...

Please stop trolling this forum Stuart it's getting boring.

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It is clear that Stuart is not trolling, come on.. Stuart's behavior is not anything like trolling at all.

it's more subtle than the usual all out teenage type web thing I'll give you that but 35 pages of him just repeating himself in a supercilious manner amounts to the same thing.

He's on a ray peat site and doesn't seem to understand serotonin etc insisting that we should all be eating huge amounts of fibre with nothing other than his personal experience as proof.

All he's done is made some loose assumptions about evolution and is presenting this as unquestionable fact!

people here have given him a lot of time and energy because they are into peat which mostly means they want to be open minded but I'm not getting that vibe from Stuart.

Also saying the micro biome is an organ is just stupid!

This is getting ridiculous. Where are the moderators? Forums have rules, goals, topics to adhere to, etc. Anytime the topic strays from dogma Peat doesn't even subscribe to himself we get a number of posters who interrupt the thread via distractions like memes, aggression, authority, or some other context change. The ironic thing is that the people who profess that those they disagree with should be excommunicated due to their "lack of Peat knowledge" don't understand how flexible Peat's dietary wisdom is... Like he said in an interview, he cannot recommend a single static diet. So what are you all talking about then? Anytime someone talks about bacteria you counter with simplistic "eat antibiotics and carrots because bacteria are bad." How is this not trolling?

hang on a minute

I'm not suggesting that everything has to adhere to peat dogma at all.

But saying that evolution has designed a perfect system and that the only way to keep it functioning is with huge amounts of fibre is massively dogmatic.

Stuart have you considered the possibility that your wrong?

Because it seems to me that your very sure of yourself?

@sugar daddy

If I would have the knowledge and clearity of mind to word my ideas about the microbiome as Stuart does, I would do it. And I can assure you I'm not a troll.

Why? Because this feels for me as one of the biggest things missing in the whole Ray Peat picture. I would love that people like Ray Peat, Danny Roddy, haidut and others that have studied health more than I would ever do, would just open their eyes a little bit about this topic. It seems like a blind spot, as Stuart says.

I'm not an expert at all, but I've just read too many studies that stresses the importance of the microbiome. Dr Natasha Campbell McBride is already for almost 10 years stressing this point, and claims that she has cured many kids from autism, by just improving the gut flora. And that even on a diet which contains quite some PUFAs.

Read also this study for example:
http://www.ou.edu/content/publicaffairs ... ogies.html

“In our study, we show that these lost bacteria are in fact multiple species that are likely capable of fermenting fiber and generating short chain fatty acids in the gut. Short chain fatty acids have anti-inflammatory properties. This raises an important question, could these lost Treponema be keystone species that explain the increased risk for autoimmunce disorders in industrialized people?"

I just believe we can help people much more with improving their health if we would focus not only on improving the metabolism, but if we would also focus on improving the gut flora.

Hey Kasper, thanks for that link (potato chips). Might give that a try. On a note, I can only support the view that the microbiome is important and involved in many diseases, if not all chronic diseases. I think the opinion of Peat is not really reflected by some members here. I think he is just smart and knows what to tell and what not.. I'd not dare to say that it is a blindspot since carrots, charcoal, antibiotics etc. all minimize the burden of a disfunctional microbiome.

It is unknown however, if a disfunctional microbiome can be cured with additional fiber, I highly doubt. Being honest here, I think fiber is harmful when there is a disfunctional microbiome. The emphasis on enhanced metabolic rate resulting in increased stomach acid, enzyme production, bile, motility, phagocytosis, etc. is more easy and straightforward and changes the microbiome in a profound positive way.

What I find most lacking in "the microbiome support hypothesis" is proper resources. Stuart has some very polished sayings like "by controlling the germs in the colon you prevent overgrowth in the small intestine", but I find it disappointing that it is mostly without additional sources, and if so it's those general sites instead of ncbi/ pubmed articles. For me to understand it, it doesn't need to be truth as this is impossible, but I prefer models and molecular signalling pathways. Not things like "it's regulated by quorum sensing because that controles numbers, and since it is all about numbers.. bingo..!" And also not an abstract or knock-out studies done in mice (not really anything stuart linked, but microbiome research in general that fosters all these fancy hypotheses). It's cool, but that's not how reality works. My experience and feelings are neatly described by Peat, questions I've been pondering about for years suddenly became obvious. It's a model that agrees with my experiences and therefore far closer to my nature and reality than giving credit to a microbiome in a disbalanced and stressed enviroment.

Peating is by no means an end point though, so no offense Stuart or anyone else. It is clear that the microbiome, especially in everyone having health issues, is having pronounced effects on us. As stuart suggested I'd also be interested in Peat's latest opinion on the microbiome. How he thinks it is regulated by the host, environment, stressors, etc. It is clear that a disfunctional microbiome is a result of hypometabolism and excess inflammation, however, a disfunctional microbiome foster both these phenotypes, so vicious circels as with every problem.

The micromanaging thing is indeed a point, but isn't that a thing created by this forum instead of Peat? I don't believe that most of these are seen in context, nor sustain permanent changes. Another point that should deserve more attention is that things like endotoxin or serotonin indeed involve many more regulatory mechanisms, but that is immensely complex. At least knowing this, may benefit one's mind resulting in enhanced flow - Pboy is undoubtedly right about this :)

Kasper said:

Dr Natasha Campbell McBride is already for almost 10 years stressing this point, and claims that she has cured many kids from autism, by just improving the gut flora. And that even on a diet with contains quite some PUFAs.

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claims*

She recommends fish oil and on her approved list of foods she recommends "cooking oils" and almond oil:

http://gapsdiet.com/The_Diet.html

"These toxic oils are sometimes called the "essential fatty acids" or "vitamin F," but this concept of the oils as essential nutrients was clearly disproved over 50 years ago." - RP

"Almond oil, which is used in many cosmetics, is very unsaturated." - RP

I hear where you're coming from but the thing for me is, if someone like Natasha, as well self informed as she may come across, isn't smart enough to figure out that the research shows that there are no such things as "EFA's" and she condones the use of pufa cooking oil, then she loses almost all creditability in my eyes. I know that's annoying to hear and you've heard it a billion times but think about it, she's so passionate about health that she became an author and practitioner but she turns a blind eye to the things that people like Peat talk about. That's why I can't let go of Peat. Every time I look at someones work, I'm like "what about this?!: efa's, pufa, red light, co2, etc."

Natasha also seems to be tied in with the Weston Price snake oil crowd. She also appears to be a little overweight:

i think PUFA is a blindspot, too. Nothing has been proven.

It's quite clear Stuart is trolling.

I think her results with autistic kids are only more amazing given the fact that she doesn't limit PUFAs.

I think she is totally right about recommending cod liver oil. Cod liver oil is blackmailed in this forum for no good reasons. Cod liver oil contains a LOT of vitamin A (and also vitamin D and vitamin K2). And if you can't get those kids to eat liver, and given the fact that it is hard to find a good vitamin A supplement, I think that cod liver oil is one of the best option to get a healthy amount of vitamin A in your diet:

* beef liver: 0.03 gram PUFA per 1000 IU vitamin A
* cod liver oil: 0.1 gram PUFA per 1000 IU vitamin A
* butter: 1.2 gram of PUFA per 1000 IU vitamin A
* egg yolks: 2.9 gram PUFA per 1000 IU vitamin A

She doesn't really have the looks, but if I hear her speak, I don't see a sick person:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnzYqOn3VkY

I know that's annoying to hear and you've heard it a billion times but think about it, she's so passionate about health that she became an author and practitioner but she turns a blind eye to the things that people like Peat talk about.

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I totally agree ! But I think it as much a shame that Ray Peat doesn't talk that much about the importance of the gut flora.

I think that's easier for us that aren't doctors to seek information at free will. Doctors have to deal with all that's thrown at them in a short period of time, then pboycomebackhome they have to deal with a busy schedule with patient after patient that barely leaves them space for research on their own, guided by their interests. Many of them don't have time to stop and think. They are doing the best they can do under those circumstances.

Stuart is clearly not trolling, he's just romanticizing this whole idea..

It's funny how Natasha has a typical russian conviction when she speaks.