Overcoming A 4 Year Battle With Hypogonadism And Insomnia

Aragorn

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Tara, you've mentioned that many people aim at like 300 g of sugar. Did you mean 300 g of carbs total, including glucose, fructose, starch and carbs from breads etc. or 300 g of sugar/glucose only?
 

tara

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Aragorn said:
Tara, you've mentioned that many people aim at like 300 g of sugar. Did you mean 300 g of carbs total, including glucose, fructose, starch and carbs from breads etc. or 300 g of sugar/glucose only?
Depends on whether they are eating starch or not - some here do, so for them carbs include starch and sugars, while others avoid starch in favour of sugars, and eat that much sugar, including glucose, fructose, lactose, sucrose.
Personally, I've been eating some starch, but mostly sugars - more than 200g/day, mostly from fruit juice. If I was handling milk better, I'd have more of that.
 

Aragorn

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I see. Thank you. Forgive my ignorance but is bread/crackers/cookies considered glucose for the purpose of counting daily sugar intake?
 

tara

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Aragorn said:
I see. Thank you. Forgive my ignorance but is bread/crackers/cookies considered glucose for the purpose of counting daily sugar intake?

Bread and crackers are usually mostly starch, which breaks down to glucose. Cookies are often a mixture of starch and sucrose; sucrose breaks down to half glucose half sucrose.
Some people avoid starch becasue it is a complex carbohydrate that tends to travel further down the GI tract before breaking down, and tends to feed intestinal bacteria.

The other difference Peat points to is that glucose requires and stimulates more insulin than does a mixture of fructose and glucose, and in some contexts the latter can more easily be turned into energy in the cells. So some people choose foods with a good proportion of fructose, which you don't get from starch.

So whether you count starch as glucose or not depends on whether you are considering the monosaccharides that it breaks down to - and their effect on blood sugars and energy production, or the whole complex molecules - and their effect on bacteria and endotoxin in the GI tract.

If you haven't read Peat's articles on sugar, I'd recommend them.
 

Aragorn

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Well, I've been already eating lots of sucrose from fruits and honey and some starch from potatoes and rye/rice crackers. The only sugar I was missing is glucose from white/raw sugar. I started eating more of that and my blood glucose risen. Why is my thyroid not working then, if it requires carbs which I'm taking? ( I'm trying to correct thyroid by food before I start supplementing with thyroid).

As far as PUFA, I'm taking 1 tsp of olive oil as dressing and 1 tbsp of coconut oil. Also 1 tsp of flax oil. So I don't think PUFA is my problem...
 

tara

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You would be getting some glucose from fruits and honey too, even without the sucrose.

There are many factors involved in restoring health, and few certainties. There are many nutrients to optimise, not just carbs - sufficient good protein, and all the vitamins and minerals. Also sunlight, sleep and breathing can have effects. And even once you get things moving in roughly the right direction, it can still take time, and have bumps along the way. If the pancreas etc are out of practice at handling carbs because you've been restricting them heavily for a long time, it might take a bit for it to get up to speed again. I think Peat has suggested there is some scope for the pancreatic beta cells to recover if they can be provided with good conditions, but this is largely at odds with the standard medical story.

We all end up having to figure out what works for ourselves, with the information we can gather and paying attention to how our body responds.

How have you been getting on reading Peat's articles and listening to/reading his interviews? They can be challenging, and I've found I get more out of them by rereading, but they have been important for me to get an idea on how Peat sees health overall. Great that you've been reading Broda Barnes - I hope to read him some time too.

If you can be bothered with the effort, you could plug in a typical day's diet into cronometer.com, and post a screenshot of it here. That makes it easier for people here to see if there are obvious gaps or imbalances in nutrition, etc. Even if you don't want to post it, it can be a valuable tool for you to assess what else you might be needing.
 

Aragorn

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Hi Tara and all,

Here's my sample food list from cromoneter.com . It's an average list of course since my day-to-day food intake varies. I'm sure this is not a perfect Peat's recommended diet but it will give you an idea of what I eat now. Some soup I often eat is not in the list so I broke it down to ingredients. I added 8-10 tsp of raw sugar and some milk per day staring 2 weeks ago. It's too early to tell and I keep my fingers crossed, but it seems like my both fasting morning and 2 hrs after meal blood glucose has declined and it seems to be an average of around 90 now. But I can't tell if my fatigue got any better yet. Please take a look at my food screenshot.




Regarding reading Peat's articles. I can't make sense of them while reading. Everyone got their own ideas and everyone seems to be absolutely right. But only real results can tell. Most of what he writes does not make sense to me but I'm open to believing whatever actually WORKS in real life.

Another important question I have is this. My wife has stage III breast cancer. Underwent all traditional treatments. She is blood type A (vegetarian) and does better with minimal meat - she feels healthier that way, unlike me. So, every holistic doctor she saw told her to avoid sugar and too sugary fruits such as grapes, since sugar feeds cancer - so they said. She's generally followed that advice and is avoiding bread/sugar for last 5 years, however she takes plenty of fruits. But recently she started measuring her blood glucose since I've got the glucometer, and her's is noticeably higher: morning fasting is averaging 100 and 2 hrs after meal averaging 115.

What is Peat's approach to sugar in relation to cancer? Sugar does not contribute to cancer growth? Should she try to increase sugar intake?
 

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flyboy9994

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Hello Aragorn. New guy here but I would like to chime in a little.

Are you dead set against testosterone replacement therapy? I only ask because I also suffered horribly from hypogonadism and started TRT and it's made a huge difference.
 

Aragorn

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Flyboy,
I'm trying to avoid it at all costs. But if I fail, I'll have no choice. I just feel it's a wrong thing to do but I can't explain why. I just discovered that my thyroid is not working and that must have started long before testosterone problem. I will try to follow http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ in taking thyroid and get tested for adrenal problems. If that fails then I'll start taking Testosterone. I suspect thyroid might be closer to the root of my problems. Testosterone replacement just scares me... people are saying it causes prostate cancer left and right and there are class action lawsuits....

Have you tested temperature to rule out thyroid?
 

flyboy9994

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It's funny you ask that because I'm fairly convinced I also suffer from hypothyroid. I've spent a lot of time on the STTM website as I was convinced that my thyroid was the root of my debilitating fatigue. I went to my doc for tests and my TSH was 1.0. Not great but in his eyes not enough to treat. (I'll get back to that). Anyway, during those tests is when we discovered my horrendously low T (190) and he immediately recommended TRT. My main concern was also prostate cancer but further research has determined this to be largely untrue IF your PSA number isn't elevated. Mine was super low at 0.5 so my doc was very confident in recommending TRT. I started with the type applied under the armpits each morning and within a few days started to feel much better. Within a few weeks I honestly feel like I was reborn! Another test showed my T at 750!! Yay! I have been on TRT for about 4 months now and am feeling much more motivated and actually WANT to exercise for the first time in over 10 years. (I'm 52 and morbidly obese by the way). My low T was also causing major problems with my general demeanor and motivation to do anything. Sitting at home all day with the blinds closed was the norm. Now I finally feel like taking control of my health and that's how I ended up here.

OK, enough rambling. Now that I feel much better, there is still the issue of hypothyroidism which I still believe is a factor here. It turns out hypogonadism and hypothyroidism are very often present together. Even though my TSH was 1.0 I didn't pursue any further testing until I got my T squared away. My morning temps are horrible. I actually saw 95.5 one morning but they average 96 to97 which I'm aware is too low. I am scheduled for another blood draw next week and am having the full STTM recommended thyroid panel done so I can began to pursue that. Basically what I expect to happen in the next couple of years is to get my thyroid issues worked out, use Peats principles to lose a large amount of weight, exercise and in the process fix my damaged metabolism (thanks paleo)... As a result, my need for TRT should start to wane. I have read similar success stories and TRT is definitely NOT a life sentence as most would lead you to believe. I'm simply using it as a tool to get where I need to be. If your interested here is a link to a thread on another forum I found about several men going through TRT. They talk mostly about injectable T but I got a lot of good useful info there. Hope this helps.

http://forums.menshealth.com/topic/low- ... ere?page=1
 

tara

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Hi Aragorn,
Glad your fasting sugars didn't skyrocket and scare you. :)
My guess is that Peat would most strongly recommend stopping the flaxseed oil - I think this must be what's pushing you PUFA totals way high. And to maybe watch the rye crispbread to see if it bothers your gut (if it doesn't bother you, it may not be a big deal). I used to eat quite a few of those too. If this is typical, then you may still be undereating (my thought, not necessarily Peat's).

Peat's interviews are easier going than his articles - you can listen or some of them have been very helpfully transcribed, mostly by forum members.

I'm sorry you wife is having to fight breast cancer. I am not very familiar with this. I know Peat's articles can be hard going, but I'd recommend reading all his ones on cancer too. I have not read them in the last little while,, but IIRC, he says that cancer does use sugar, but it tends to convert human to sugar even if you don't eat it, and the person also needs sugar to fight it, and to counteract the cachexia which can itself be a lethal aspect of cancer. I think progesterone, aspirin, very low PUFA, raising CO2 levels if low and good mineral balance (which may be one of the major advantages of high juicing diets like Gershon) also feature. Can't remember if he talks much about the amino acid balance - ie restricting cysteine, methionine and tryptophan in favour of more glycine etc, specifically against cancer. Coconut oil may be helpful. There is a link in one of his transcribed interviews to a TED talk by a scientist talking about experiments demonstrating the importance of the field (as opposed to just the genes) affecting cell behaviour wrt cancer.

Look up previous poster Peatarian's posts.
 

Aragorn

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Tara,

Thanks for info. My wife is not having signs of cachexia right now. She very slightly gained weight. She tried progesterone before orthodox treatments (along with 2 dozen other alternative treatments) but got no results. Maybe it was too late... tumor was big. Regarding sugar: this is the biggest question right now. I've tried googling Peat's view on cancer and sugar, and there's couple of articles where he says what you've said about cancer feeding off sugar as well as healthy cells needing sugar. But I couldn't find and real life experiences from real people like cancer survivors that started taking more sugar and cancer got to remission or something like that. Please direct me where I could read these. I can't trust any more scientists without them backing their studies by real examples, can't afford doing that anymore. Right now the questions are:

1. What causes my wife's blood glucose being elevated and
2. If that's due to lack of sugar, can increased sugar intake pose risk to her as cancer survivor?

She also takes flaxseed oil as a part of Budwig regimen (flaxseed oil and cotton cheese) and she says it helps her getting more energy and gives her healthy face color. There's a lot of noise around Budwig being a cure for cancer so she won't let go off Budwig easily and I'm not sure she should... Do you think flaxseed oil might have been the reason of her elevated sugar?

As far as myself: I started taking flaxseed oil only like 4 months ago so it can't be a cause of my low thyroid or testosterone. As far as crispbread - no, it doesn't bother my gut (but wheat did when I was eating it). Anyway, right now I'm not digesting unless I take enzymes etc, whether I eat bread or not... The only explanation I see to that is low thyroid.

Regarding reading or listening to Ray Peat. I don't think I can learn something from pure theories or pure science. Plus, I don't understand most of the terminology. What is important for me is REAL LIFE EXAMPLES of his approach. That's why I'm here, asking real people. There are so many scientists and all are saying oppisite things and back them up tremendously by super-convincing scientific evidence and formulas, but only those that actually work are worth anything. So the only question to any approach I have is this: Does It Work In Real Life?

>>>>>There is a link in one of his transcribed interviews to a TED talk by a scientist talking about experiments demonstrating the importance of the field (as opposed to just the genes) affecting cell behaviour wrt cancer.


Please, explain what filed you're talking about.

>>>>>Look up previous poster Peatarian's posts.

Which ones, exactly?


flyboy9994,

Thanks for info, however I've read a lot about TRT before I came to this forum and I failed to find a single TRT patient who was able to stop TRT and be OK. As I understand it, this is for life. Please give me links to people's stories that prove otherwise, like from people that were able to get off TRT. And I'm so much against it because I don't see a difference between being a drug addict and being on TRT. Both are for life, both are expensive, both have side effects, both create addiction. That being said, I may have to do it anyway, but only as a last resort.... What if PSA goes up and I can't stop TRT because of inevitable crush? These things scare me... My T is as low as yours and I'm 36. My mother has thyroid problems and I think it runs in our family genetically, but I just learned that.

So first I want to see if supplementing thyroid will help. I ordered dessicated thyroid... didn't come yet. I remember starting having these mild fatigue symptoms as far back as age 17. There's no way in hell that could be low T at that age. But it could be low thyroid. Low thyroid can be from birth. As far as thyroid panel tests that you mentioned - as I understand it, only morning temperature is a right indicator of thyroid function. My thyroid bloodwork is OK as well. But morning basal temperature is low. The longer I sleep (up to 12 hrs) the higher the temperature, but still below normal. That means that my thyroid is struggling to repair itself during sleep, just like the OP wrote. So, here I am trying to see if more sugar intake will repair my thyroid but I kinda doubt because it seems to have gotten beyond the point of self-repair.

I hope you're right about being able to get off TRT after fixing thyroid, but I kind a doubt that it's possible. Although common sense tell me that thyroid is the boss of endocrine system because it's like thermostat regulating metabolic rate.
 

tara

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Hi Aragorn,

It sounds as though you have both made serious efforts to find good ways to counter the cancer. It is up to you whehter you have the time and energy to read and pursue more here. Remember that this forum is mostly a bunch of amateurs (there are some health professionals in here too, I think) who are trying to figure out Peat's ideas and how to use them. It is unlikely that anyone here can give you a definitive guaranteed program for your recovery or your wife's, though there is a lot of good will here and people do generally try to help each other.

I don't know anywhere where there are lots of real life cases of high sugar cancer survivorship. You could try starting a dedicated thread for this, and maybe someone else will see it and point to something useful. My guess is that high mineral and vitamin content may be very important, and therefore juices may be preferable to relying primarily on cane sugar. I understand your urgency, and I wish it were simple to point to a big pool of verified successes. Maybe others can help. But if you want the best picture can of Peat's approach, you probably also have to keep going over his work to gradually get a better understanding. I had none of the background to understand his terminology either. I found that the more I read, the more I could see common themes in his writing, and gradually start to get more of a picture, but it is still no where near understanding it all. He does often include a list of practical steps to make use of the ideas he describes. Peat mentions a few women who rectified early signs of cervical cell disruption by IIRC topical vit-A application. I don't think you will find any guaranteed methods, but it is great that you keep on it and it will likely improve her odds. Of course you don't have to read more - you no doubt have your hands full, and information overload can be stressful. I personally am acquiring a better understanding of what is going on in my body by reading him, and find the challenge rewarding, so I am enthusiastic about it.

I don't remember which of Peatarian's posts, but I think she was fighting cancer successfully, though I don't know which variety, and had been in contact with Peat. I read all her posts when I first got here, because she seemed knowledgeable, and she came to mind as a real life example. She's not posting here now - I wonder if Charlie knows how she's doing. She did dry CO2 baths amongst other things, and may have got through a bottle of progest-e a week for a while. There was also a drug, but I can't remember the name.

Cancer field -if I've understood it - ie the physical - chemical - electrical field surrounding cancers - the environment around the cells that can support a cell in appropriate differentiation and restraint if it is favourable, or disrupt cells' more complex function and allow them to get into out-of-control replication. Cancers cells apparently put out messages and environment that encourages surrounding cells to become cancerous. Apparently there was quite a bit of research about cancer field theory a few decades ago, before the research moved to more genetic focus - ie rogue mutations in a cells genes cause it to proliferate and the cancer spreads because of this. The field theories are more inclined to say that mutations can be caused by the cancer field surrounding them, not just the replication of mutated genes. Gene theory tends to support cut/poison/burn methods, field theory recognises that cut/poison/burn can also disrupt the field further and encourage the spread of metastases. The field theory suggests that if you can change the immediate environment surrounding cancer cells, you may sometimes be able to get them to revert to differentiated, functioning, non-cancerous cells again.
Have you read/listened to this interview yet? viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5750&p=68341

Warburg demonstrated that cancers have deranged energy production - I think they tend to aerobic glycolysis. This ties in with low CO2.

Haidut has posted a few studies related to cancer.

I don't have a good grip on all the aspects of cancer metabolism. But I think the cancers themselves do modify the surrounding metabolism to convert protein to sugar.
I know someone slightly who is currently outliving his drs prognosis by a small number of years. I don't know all the supplements he is prescribed, but I think his main source of food is fresh organic vege juice, and a little coconut oil.

From various sources, I've got the impression the body pH is important - cancers prefer an overly acidic environment, and addressing this eg with appropriate calcium supplying food and/or supplements can be helpful. Normally, UpH of ~6.3ish to 6.7ish is ideal, but when fighting cancer it may be better to avoid the acid end and be on the more alkaline end of this range.

If you haven't seen the threads mentioning Budwig's protocol and Gerson therapy, I'd recommend them too. I think there may be some discussion of the controversy. Also, Peat pointed out a bug in more recent versions of one of them (can't remember which) which made the current protocol different to the original successful one.)I have not studied either of them more than in passing, and do not know how helpful they can be, but I think maybe the original Budwig protocol used quark, and that cottage cheese is not the same. Gerson used coffee enemas, along with extremely low fat juice-based diet with no animal products, IIRC. I think there was a study of Buteyko method used against HIV AIDS, that showed his method could sometimes improve the outcomes for that disease, including associated cancers. His method has CO2 as central, and so does Peat's, though from different ends.

If you do start another thread on this, you may want to post her diet, if she agrees.

I don't know what I would do in her situation, and at some point I'd probably be assessing the info I could find about conventional treatments as well. I think there are times when removing tumours may be necessary, because when they get big enough they can interfere more with surrounding functions and also defend themselves more effectively. I think I would also be trying to incorporate as best I could:
Good quality juices to supply sugars and minerals and vitamins and a tiny bit of protein
Gelatin or glycine
Vit-A
Aspirin to support oxidative metabolism
Dry CO2 baths to raise CO2
Raw carrot salad and cascara to reduce endotoxin burden
Probably emphasising sugars over starches, but I might be guided by appetite or experienced effects with this
High red light and low blue light.
Extremely low PUFA, low or zero muscle meats, maybe low starch,
Avoid poisons.
And keep reading to see what else I could learn and use,
Find the best dr I could.

I wish your wife all the best.

Your own deficiencies in thyroid and testosterone may have resulted from undernourishment, but that doesn't make PUFAs irrelevant during recovery. However, I do not know enough about the Budwig protocol to understand why it has seemed to work for some, so maybe there is something else going on there that I don't understand.
 

Aragorn

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I started gaining weight. 2lbs for 3 weeks. Is that due to increased sugar intake? Basically all I changed was starting taking 12 tsp of raw sugar a day with tea, as well as 16 oz of raw goat milk, which I also started. Why am I gaining weight?
Anybody??


It is funny how Budwig supposed to be harmful and yet there are many testimonials about how it healed cancer, much more than those from Peat's followers, going back to even before internet came about. I'm not, by any means trying to say that Peat is wrong, I'm just pointing to horrible contradictions in the world of natural healing.

In post by user HDD above, that patient underwent chemotherapy and yet there's an attempt to give testimonials to her natural part of treatment as being the key in her doing well. Plus, not with every chemo drug hair comes out. These 2 crucial facts were missing in that testimony.

I'm sure Gerson's daughter wrongly adopted flaxseed oil in the original regimen. But Budwig herself has a whole scientific study behind her cottage cheese with flaxseed oil and it points to electrically charged molecules and flaxseed oil turning to water soluble fat etc....
 

jyb

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Aragorn said:
I started gaining weight. 2lbs for 3 weeks. Is that due to increased sugar intake? Basically all I changed was starting taking 12 tsp of raw sugar a day with tea, as well as 16 oz of raw goat milk, which I also started. Why am I gaining weight?
Anybody??

Getting carbs from white sugar is not the same as from lactose in milk (different metabolism) or from sugar in fruit (better nutrition if it comes from ripe fruit). I personally avoid eating white sugar and would rather increase my milk intake instead. I'm also wary of tea which is high in fluoride and other contaminants, so I mostly drink coffee.
 

Aragorn

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I've seen many, including OP of this thread, taking white sugar with milk. That's why I started taking it, too. Should I switch to milk only? Is raw cow milk ok?

As far as fruit - I've been eating tonns if fruits even before I started taking more sugar 3 weeks ago. So if lack of fruits is to blame then I don't understand... God, this is confusing....
 

Dean

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I have heard Peat recommend adding sugar, or better yet--honey, to milk. Don't really recall his reasoning. It was a few years ago that I blitzed through listening to his radio interviews. It might have had something to do with helping to make galactose more easily digestible. This seems to be the case for me.
 

jyb

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Aragorn said:
I've seen many, including OP of this thread, taking white sugar with milk. That's why I started taking it, too. Should I switch to milk only? Is raw cow milk ok?

As far as fruit - I've been eating tonns if fruits even before I started taking more sugar 3 weeks ago. So if lack of fruits is to blame then I don't understand... God, this is confusing....

I gave my version based on what works for me and think is healthy. I happen to drink raw milk too, never caused me problems. I never said you lacked fruit, in fact I personally don't find them essential at all compared to my dairy products. I don't have weight issues.
 

Aragorn

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jyb said:
Aragorn said:
I've seen many, including OP of this thread, taking white sugar with milk. That's why I started taking it, too. Should I switch to milk only? Is raw cow milk ok?

As far as fruit - I've been eating tonns if fruits even before I started taking more sugar 3 weeks ago. So if lack of fruits is to blame then I don't understand... God, this is confusing....

I gave my version based on what works for me and think is healthy. I happen to drink raw milk too, never caused me problems. I never said you lacked fruit, in fact I personally don't find them essential at all compared to my dairy products. I don't have weight issues.

Thank you. Do you think white sugar can actually make someone fat? What does Ray Peat say about that? It does not look like it increases my blood glucose as I thought it would... what about weight gain? Should it?
 

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