Sunmountain's Log

sunmountain said:

Ha, ha! He's aiming at you, Tara, all yours! Let's go see what's happening on the P_G-Cody threads...I think BigP was in there staking claim...

Peat (rightly) attacks establishments and systems, not individuals. Big difference.

Wish I could meet Peat some day!

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Out of my age range by about half.

Yeah, they're having fun over there.

I agree.

Me too.

Things are moving along and getting complicated. I did bloodwork for labs yesterday (they said a huge number of tests and took tons of blood), and stool today. This is not the Genova test yet as I have to still get their kit. This stool is for the local lab where I got blood work. Early tomorrow morning is insulin-glucose tolerance test. Many of these tests are to determine what else might be present besides methane bacteria, according to the GI.

Smartpill capsule test can't be done because they don't have anyone to do it until August.

Monday is my annual physical with my internist who had ordered my breath test.

The complication arises because the GI wants me to meet with the nutritionist to follow low FODMAP diet. I'm trying to get out of that, which may or may not work.

I did a lot of reading the past few days on methane SIBO. None of the protocols really work, though most provide some relief if you keep rotating them over the YEARS. All of them tell you not to eat fructose. The Rifaximin plus Neomycin study said 86% success, but it's a very hard regimen due to high doses.

I also searched raypeat.com and this forum for SIBO. One person said eat glucose as it's absorbed early in the tract. I suspect I'm insulin-resistant and test tomorrow will likely confirm it. If so, is glucose alone a good option for me? (What I'm doing right now is table sugar plus fructose.)

And I don't recall much posted on methane SIBO, which is harder to eradicate than hydrogen.

What IS the peatarian way to deal with methane SIBO? Is there anyone on the forum who has dealt with it successfully? I know that raising thyroid is the key to health, but I get palps from raising it even very slowly.

OTOH, MB has been literally a savior for me. It's keeping me on my feet, taking me to my part-time job and back. BUT EVEN THE ENERGY FROM MB IS NOT DOING A THING FOR THE BAD BUGS!!! And without MB, as I tried it out for a few days, brought the crazy fatigue back, making me want to lie in bed day after day.

So what's a Peatarian to do about these methane bugs?? How to function?

IF I'm insulin resistant, is there a way to get sugars in while limiting fructose? Switching back to OJ from AJ is one thing, I know.

Is there a way to make my biome inhospitable for the methane bastards?

Four of the test results just posted:
B12 is 1072 (211-946 range)
Antinuclear antibody negative
CRP is 0.7 (<0.5 range) so is high. What does this mean?
Hemoglobin A1C is 5.4 (4.5-6.1)

So CRP is high.

Hi Sun,
Sounds like a pain.

Did the recommendations to avoid fructose when dealing with methane bacteria look as thought there was any serious evidence to support them? Are they saying to go with more glucose instead of fructose? You have to eat something. It may be possible to improve glucose tolerance, even if tests show it's an issue now.

I don't know much about methane bacteria, don't know what kills them. Apparently they typically cause constipation. What do they eat?
Charcoal should lower the numbers. I think you were getting constipation last time you tried it, and then diarrhea when you tried cascara to deal with that. But you might be able to adjust the cascara to give you just enough to keep regular with the charcoal, eg every two-three days or so for a while to see if it helps?

Can you get information about the FODMAPs approach without committing yourself to it? It's possible that it might help, and you might learn something useful from a short experiment with it, even if you don't buy the whole package or want to follow it long-term?
I wonder whether there would be anything to gain from a short experiment with an SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) approach. I don't know the ins and outs, but I think it focusses on eating simple sugars - monosaccharides - and avoiding disaccharides as well as longer chain carbs.

From experience, make sure you have a snack with you for straight after the GT test. I remember when I had one years ago, I was a quivering wreck by the end of it, and could only just walk to the car afterwards, where I had a snack. I certainly wouldn't have been safe to drive. You might not get any bad reaction, but easy to have something on hand just in case. I figure I just couldn't handle the blood sugar disruption from the test. Of course, the dr later said I was all fine, because the test results were in range.

I'm no expert on this either, but I think hemoglobin A1C is 5.4 (4.5-6.1) means you have not had chronically too high blood sugars over the last couple of months. That bodes well for insulin test.

Good luck

Thanks for the pointers, Tara! I do believe there are studies that link sibo and fodmap; I'll try to find and post here.

The glucose recommendation came from a thread here on the forum, from someone dealing with sibo.

I've come across the SCD diet; I'll look into that. I do recall there is a diet that allows white rice, white sugar, white potatoes, etc. -- may be yet another diet.

Just last week I tried charcoal after the bloat became unbearable, and it absolutely did help. I took a cascara capsule along with the AC, and it was fine. You have a good memory; that is what happened with me a while ago -- constipation due to AC, followed by diarrhea due to cascara. Yes, I am planning on doing AC a couple of times a week along with cascara on at least those days.

The GI had recommended aloe also. I'll search Peat and see if he says anything about aloe.

The low fodmappers say to do it for "just a few weeks" and then reintroduce fruits etc one by one. But I am skeptical that one can go back on it without the bacteria coming back. However, there are low fodmap fruits such as citrus that are peaty. That is something I can do -- switch from AC back to OJ which will help reduce the fructose.

Thanks for the alert about the snack -- I'll take dates and juice with me. Fructose again!

That's interesting to know about the A1C test. I will say this. IF my insulin comes within range, it may be because I am daily taking 4-6 capsules of Allithiamine, 1-2 biotin, B5, a drop or two b12, and recently restarted niacinamide. (And Estroban, extra E, K, A.)

The daily drop of b12 might be why the b12 is in the high range. So there must be other causes for the fatigue.

I wish some of our peatarian community would speak up on their sibo experience. I am sure many of us have struggled with it and are struggling still.

I think aloe may have emodin in it, which Peat has recommended as safer laxative etc, and is in cascara sagrada too.

I think the point about FODMAPs (and yes, I've seen it recommended as something to try for SIBO), and SCD, and other variants, is to deprive or restrict the problematic bugs of their favourite food. So if you can figure out what they thrive on, you try to replace it with something that still nourishes you, but they can't feed and grow so well on.

Those extra vitamins could well be helping you burn sugars better - that's great.

The bugs causing methane are not bacteria. They are archaea. Here is a study linking the most common methane-producing archaea with carbs:

Archaea and Fungi of the Human Gut Microbiome: Correlations with Diet and Bacterial Residents. Published: June 17, 2013DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0066019

Methane SIBO is positively correlated with constipation, while hydrogen SIBO with diarrhea. Methanogens are also positively correlated with obesity, IBS, IBD, periodontal disease. They use hydrogen to reduce CO2 to methane.

From WJG 20th Anniversary Special Issues (17): Intestinal microbiota. "Archaea and the human gut: New beginning of an old story":
"methanogenic archaea are known to be insensitive to most of the antibiotics used in human health."

And -- Glob Adv Health Med. 2014 May;3(3):16-24. doi: 10.7453/gahmj.2014.019. "Herbal therapy is equivalent to rifaximin for the treatment of small intestinal bacterial overgrowth." They use garlic (Allimed), berberine, etc.

Right now, my immediate problem is WHICH carbs to eat. No starches (or low, for me). I can give up fructose and switch to glucose IF I'm not insulin-resistant. BUT my doc called me yesterday and said the lab did the test wrong and did not draw for insulin, only for glucose, so I have to do it again. BUT she said the glucose results suggest "reactive hypoglycemia," whatever that is...got to look it up. Apparently my sugar levels went up after dextrose drink and then in the third hour came crashing down. So what carbs can I eat if not starch, not fructose, and not glucose if Monday tolerance test will confirm insulin-resistance.

OTOH, I suspected IR before testing for it. Hasn't Ray said there can be temporary IR?

And I seem to remember Haidut posting about methane-producers v. ? Gotta look that up too.

Talk about being confused and trying to dig a way out.

Most of the sibo studies and websites also say that gut serotonin is low, which is behind the slow motility. BUT according to Peat, isn't gut serotonin HIGH when there is dysbiosis / bacterial overgrowth? Has mainstream got it backwards again?

Another major realization is that I neglected carrot salad altogether. I've been building it into my diet lately and notice a slight but noticeable improvement after eating it. I'm also going to incorporate AC again 2-3 times a week, as it also helps the bloat. Keeping the archeae numbers down even if they be fruitful and multiply is bound to help.

Going the RP way is really about changing the microbiome. And changing the microbiome can be helped greatly if AC and carrot salad are used (intensively?) from the get go. This is one thing I would do differently if I was starting out today on RP.

The post I was trying to remember was about methylation and over-methylators. Does anyone know if there might be a connection between methylation and methanogens, or am I just being ignorant? Do they both involve methane?

Jut looked up archaea, which i hadn't heard of before - there's ignorance for you, since apparently they may be up to 20% of Earth's biomass. Looks like some of the simple things that kill fungi (eg acid) and bacteria can't be counted on to kill them. Some thrive in acid, some in alkaline. Some of them consume CO2. Some of them also use alchohol or acetic acid (eg vinegar).

I found this on one of the most common archaeon in the human gut - a methanogen - it disposes of hydrogen in the gut and produces methane. More plentiful in the guts of anorexics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanobr ... er_smithii

The charcoal lools like a winner to keep using, and maybe carrot salad. Haven't yet found anything that says if it likes vinegar or not.

sunmountain said:

Right now, my immediate problem is WHICH carbs to eat. No starches (or low, for me). I can give up fructose and switch to glucose IF I'm not insulin-resistant. BUT my doc called me yesterday and said the lab did the test wrong and did not draw for insulin, only for glucose, so I have to do it again. BUT she said the glucose results suggest "reactive hypoglycemia," whatever that is...got to look it up. Apparently my sugar levels went up after dextrose drink and then in the third hour came crashing down. So what carbs can I eat if not starch, not fructose, and not glucose if Monday tolerance test will confirm insulin-resistance.

OTOH, I suspected IR before testing for it. Hasn't Ray said there can be temporary IR?

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I thin reactive hypoglycemia is when you get a big load of glucose, your body takes a while to produce the insulin, and it then produces so much that the blood sugars drop too low again - sugar crash. May then be followed by stress hormones raising the blood sugar again.

If I understand it right, and I'm not sure about this, if there is insulin resistance, then the first insulin produced doesn't get the blood glucose level down enough/fast enough, and therefore the pancreas keeps producing more, and may produce too much. If someone knows this process better, I hope they sing out.

When I did the GTT test, I think it involved drinking 50 or 75g of glucose solution very quickly with nothing else to buffer it. That's a lot of very quickly absorbed glucose. I think you can reduce the big swings in blood glucose and insulin by by aving smaller amounts more often. Peat has talked about glucose being needed to regenerate for the pancreatic beta cells that produce insulin. Starving them if glucose seems unlikely to improve their function. If you haven't read Peat's article on sugar and diabetes recently, you can see if it explains anything useful.

In terms of what carbs to eat - I don't know, but that bit about anorexia often being accompanied by more of that common methanogenic archaea doesn't seem to encourage starving them out.

Happy sleuthing. :)

Many good points here, Tara. That is exactly what my glucose test shows. The lab messed up the insulin part of the test TWICE (unbelievable), and I'm not going there a third time. Not unless the GI begs on bended knees.

Here are the glucose results: fasting 100 (60-99 range); 1-hour 195 (<180 range); 2-hour 150 (<155 range); and 3-hour was 51 (unbelievable, yes).

Just 3 days ago, when I took the test the first time, the results were: fasting 94, 1-hour 215 (!!!!!), 2-hour 149, and 3-hour 35 (!!!!!).

SO would you conclude reactive hypoglycemia.

Now here is what happened just a little while ago at dinner time. I am still experimenting to see what bloats and what doesn't. All day I did not bloat because I stuck to what I eat daily for bfast and lunch since a couple of months -- farmer cheese quiche and farmer cheesecake. I had OJ today at work instead of AJ and was fine.

When I left work at 5pm I was feeling very thirsty but had run of OJ and nothing in car and didn't want to stop for coke. I'm trying to stay off fructose-heavy and see if it makes a difference. I got home and rested and then cooked a potato which I had boiled yesterday and refrigerated along with 2 eggs and a summer squash. By the time I ate, it was maybe 7:30pm, and it was hard not to wolf it down. Had some OJ with it too.

After a while I started feeling funny: sort of uneasy, and felt sudden warmth in my lower legs, and not quite palpy but sort of. I think my sugar was off, but I couldn't tell if I was hyper or hypo. Anyway, I drank more OJ in small amounts, and kept feeling it.

I'm now thinking it might be hyper cuz I keep feeling thirsty and peeing.

So now suddenly my focus has shifted from archaea to sugar management. I do know that Peat does not recommend starving ourselves of sugar -- not the bacteria and not the diabetics. What are a few core Peaty things for sugar management, other than eating/drinking every 2-3 hours? I am reading up his articles on sugar too.

It's confusing to have to figure two seemingly different things out all at once, especially the sugar management which is more immediate. One thing I did differently in making this batch of cheesecake is that I used only table sugar and not half fructose. I also switched to only table sugar in my coffee this morning. I did notice that I did not bloat beyond what I woke up with this morning. OJ also did not bloat me. When I came home, I drank some sparkling AJ slowly and was able to tolerate it, which suggests I might be able to tolerate some fructose, though not a lot at once or too quickly.

Also, is there anything one can do to mitigate hyper symptoms quickly? For hypo, it's eat sugar, but not sure about hyper.

I'm also wondering if it's a coincidence that I'm having these first-ever sugar episodes right after two glucose tests. Maybe they speeded up what was going to happen anyway. And maybe I could have delayed what was going to happen if I hadn't had the tests.

Is it true that thiamine and coffee cancel each other? I think I read that in some post. I've been taking a caffeine pill with breafast every day for a couple of months, and it's working fine. Today I didn't take thiamine or any B's really, thinking I'll take them with lunch but then forgot.

Oh, and I now eat carrot salad for my mid-morning snack. I'm sure that also helped keep the bloat in check today until the evening.

During the potato-egg-zucchini dinner, I did feel the sudden bloat. I slowed down eating, and that helped it not get totally out of control. Will have to experiment with starch to see about bloat (which ones, speed of eating, etc.).

Am waiting 2 hours tonight before taking the AC slurry.

sunmountain said:

Here are the glucose results: fasting 100 (60-99 range); 1-hour 195 (<180 range); 2-hour 150 (<155 range); and 3-hour was 51 (unbelievable, yes).

Just 3 days ago, when I took the test the first time, the results were: fasting 94, 1-hour 215 (!!!!!), 2-hour 149, and 3-hour 35 (!!!!!).

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That looks like real sugar crashes! Were you still standing at the end of that?

Other I can think of that Peat has mentioned for sugar regulation (and also recognised by mainstream, as far as I know):
B-vitamins - probably best in divided doses through day, eg with each meal.
Minerals: esp. potassium, magnesium
probably others - eg zinc, chromium, manganese?
Peat would also say thyroid, I think?
Limiting fats so they don't compete with sugar burning via the Randle cycle.

Not from Peat, but I think to lower high blood sugars quickly, exercise can help burn through it.
Maybe coffee, too?
Rakhimov at normal breathing suggests reduced breathing exercise. Bag-breathing might help similarly. I think you have to be running at reasonable pH - not too acid - for this to be helpful, because higher CO2 can lower pH further.

Thanks, Tara. I am doing most of what you mention for sugar regulation. But I am not supplementing minerals enough. I might look into multimineral.

If my fasting sugar is at the high end, is it a good idea to have coffee plus caffeine pill with breakfast? So far I have not noticed anything bad from it; in fact the caffeine helps me function.

I was just following the discussion between Haidut and Gbolduev. One thing Gbolduev said struck a chord:

"So if your pancreas are not working properly , what will happen if you give more protein into the body? You will be toxic in all this ammonia and indigested crap in your small intestine and will get SIBO."

I've suspected insulin resistance for some time now. And because of my experience on starvation diet pre-Peat, it made sense to me to give my body more protein along with more everything. Since the past two months or so, I've been eating a lot of farmer cheese daily. If my pancreas are malfunctioning, then per Gbolduev, the added protein may have led to worsening of the bloat/SIBO (also may be caused by fructose problems)?

He mentioned easily digested proteins if one is insulin resistant. Not sure what he means by those.

I would not recommend coffee when your blood sugars are high from fasting - I think it's likely stress hormones from the fast that has pushed the blood sugars up. Caffeine then might be likely to just push stress hormones up higher. I'd go with Peat's idea, and drink coffee after meals - esp larger carby meals - and hope it gets the post meal blood sugar down quicker.

Yes, I've been finding that discussion interesting too. Smart people with different perspectives.
I'll be interested in what he says about yr question.
When I drink too little, and pee goes too dark, that's a risk state for me. I have been guessing that it may involve too much protein waste products in the system. Drinking more seems to help me. I've been thinking I should try going easy on protein anytime I'm feeling in danger. Also considerig having a systematic experiment with digestive enzymes daily for a while - I got some in the cupboard I haven't used regularly.

Potatoes seem to feed my internal inhabitants. Generally feel good after eating them, but definitely gassy.

tara said:

When I drink too little, and pee goes too dark, that's a risk state for me. I have been guessing that it may involve too much protein waste products in the system. Drinking more seems to help me.

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I read that it is important to drink enough when you eat proteins. This seems to fit with your observation.

sunmountain said:

One thing I did differently in making this batch of cheesecake is that I used only table sugar and not half fructose.
..........

I also searched raypeat.com and this forum for SIBO. One person said eat glucose as it's absorbed early in the tract. I suspect I'm insulin-resistant and test tomorrow will likely confirm it. If so, is glucose alone a good option for me? (What I'm doing right now is table sugar plus fructose.)

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Sunmountain, I am not sure I understand you right. Is your table sugar anything different than sucrose? Sucrose is half glucose / half fructose. So

1 sucrose + 1 fructose = 2 fructose + 1 glucose.

People with fructose intolerance can handle fructose in small amounts, but the bigger part of the sugar-mix should be glucose.

Maybe I misunderstood... Please forget this post if I was lecturing you unnecessary.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 913.x/full

An interesting study on the susceptibility of archaea.

Hi Giraffe, I was not clear. I meant I used only table sugar (sucrose) and not half-table sugar and half-fructose powder to make the cheesecake.

Anyway, now I am not eating the cheesecake or the quiche made with farmer cheese. It turns out my body is not able to use the protein, so it creates toxins. Since I stopped eating lots of farmer cheese, my joint pain has gone away.

Welcome to the forums, by the way!

On someone else's thread about diabetes, I just remembered about brewers yeast.
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2013/0 ... ers-yeast/

Interesting, Tara. He seems to say to restrict its use for diabetes only, possibly because it is estrogenic.

I'm actually doing fine again with my blood sugar, with eating/drinking every couple of hours, and loading B's. I've not had a crash since the glucose tests.

But I AM dealing with insomnia since about a week. Hard to fall asleep, and stay asleep. Probably due to modifying my diet and eating less sugar. I'm not drinking coffee at present, so the 2T of sugar it had are eliminated. I'm not eating cheesecake, so another lot of sugar gone there. I AM drinking AJ all day, so that might be my main source of sugar now. Also try to have a somewhat ripe fruit such as peach most days. Ice cream often.

Or maybe the insomnia is related to taking several b-vitamins after dinner (cuz I forgot to take them at lunch).

I am eating more to taste now, having eliminated the high protein. Meanwhile the GI keeps insisting that this sibo will come back after antibiotics unless low fodmaps. The dietary changes are confusing, so I'm doing the simplest thing I know of and eating to taste. Low pufa. I'm eating a good amount of starch but don't know what else to eat as I don't really like meat (though can occasionally eat a bit of chicken). Eating shrimp couple times/week. The starch doesn't seem to bother me.

I'm eating carrot salad daily, and try to take AC every other day, though it's less than that so far. These things are helping keep the bloat a little in check.

Yesterday I started on Gbolduev's marine plankton. I got the one without the red algae which have careegnan. Since yesterday I'm having quite a bit of (foul ) flatulence. It would seem the plankton are doing SOMETHING, but who knows what. I hope this side effect resolves soon. I took AC last night which mopped up the gas for most of the day, until it started again late afternoon. I think I'll take AC again tonight.

I'm remembering Peatarian's posts on how important AC and "carrott salat" were to her own recovery. I can't believe I'm taking these two things seriously so late in the game. I need to reread her post to see how often she AC'd.

The joint pain is still much better...almost not there. Muscle stiffness is better...but still there. I wonder if the ammonia or lactate is continuing to resolve slowly...is that possible? Is there something to speed up taking these out of my body? Jennifer suggested RPPS, but it is very time-consuming, and I still fatigue easily. Thanks for the suggestion, Jennifer.

I still don't really know whether it was the high protein (farmer cheese quiche and cheesecake every day for breakfast and lunch) that caused the intense muscle stiffness, joint pain, fatigue, or whether it was the fact that the quiche and cheesecake sat in my fridge for a week as I worked through them daily. I don't have time to make fresh farmer cheese daily. Could it have been the old cheese, or high protein, or both? I'm feeling SO much better after leaving behind the high protein that I'm not going to test out the causes for now.

So my plan is to try the plankton for a while. If they don't work, I'll move to the Rifaximin plus Berberine combo, or maybe Allimed (garlic) plus Berberine.