Why Does Starch Make Me Extremely Sick?

I have read Peat's articles and generally understand the logic behind his recommendation against starch, and I'm grateful for it - without Peat I would have continued thinking "carbs" in general make me sick, never realizing I can consume sugars without negative consequences.

When I eat a lot of starch on a daily basis, and I've experimented with many gluten-free varieties of starch (I still keep it low PUFA and mostly low fat, and I've played with whole and refined rice/corn, pasta, crackers, potatoes, starchy soups, legumes), within a week:

- I become extremely depressed to the point of suicidal thoughts, thinking that everyone I know hates me, general obsessive tendencies, overwhelming brain fog
- I slowly start to develop clogged pores and greasy skin and finally hormonal acne all along my jawline
- My face becomes puffy, eyes look sickly
- I start to require literally 12-14 hours of sleep per night, and feel hungover every morning, body feels heavy, nothing seems appealing but sleep and internet
- If I keep it up for more than a week I start to pile on weight (visibly, as I don't weigh myself) that I'm guessing is a mixture of fat and water retention

I could go on but you get the gist. Even moderate amounts of starch seem to lead me down this road, especially if I have several servings spread out over the week, I understand that starch may or may not be a part of an "optimal" diet but I would love to be able to eat it sometimes like a normal person. Without it I am a fairly high functioning person with good relationships and creativity and semi-decent energy levels so it is never worth it to go down the starch path for me.

Do other people here have the same experience with starch or have any ideas about why it can have such a profound effect?

As far as I've gleaned from Peat's writing, he points to 3 potential problems with starches:
1. They can in some cases be harder on blood sugar stability than carbs that break down to partly fructose.
2. They are more likely to feed intestinal microbiota than simpler saccharides. Depending on the state of the gut barrier, the balance of intestinal microbiota, gut transit, and fibre consumption, this can lead to larger amounts of bacterial endotoxin leaking into your system. Endotoxin is a burden on many systems.
3. Uncooked or undercooked starch grains may pose a risk of persorption through gut barrier into blood stream, whence they can lodge in inconvenient places and trigger stress reactions.

Can you tell if you are having trouble with bouncy blood sugar levels? If this is the issue, you could experiment with smaller portions of starch adnd having a bit of sugar with those meals too, and see if it ameliorates the issue.

If the problems arise via endotoxin load, then various tactics may help somewhat. Keeping things moving so they don't sit around constipated for too long, regular carrot salad, possibly addition of some more antibiotic tactics.

If persorption is the issue (and I kind of expected this to be more of a long term accumulation problem, but not sure about this), then making sure that any starches are thoroughly cooked ameliorates this risk.

Or just avoid them.

artist said:

post 104280 Without it I am a fairly high functioning person with good relationships and creativity and semi-decent energy levels so it is never worth it to go down the starch path for me.

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Why eat it then? You already have your answer.

Fruit, fruit juice, low fat/skim lactose and a little cane sugar/honey are the other carbohydrate sources. Use those as your carb sources.

On another thread you said:

artist said:

post 99098 I'm a 26 year old female with a long history of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, edema/heavy periods/breast pain/general estrogen problems, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin... and most problematically in the last few years, major "histamine intolerance" and MCS problems. The histamine intolerance means that vinegar causes a major reaction for me because it is very high in histamine.

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viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7766&p=99098#p99098

Histamine and estrogen seem like something to focus on.

Actually my question was why does it make me sick, so no that doesn't answer it. There are many reasons to want to be able to eat starch. For one thing I do not have a lot of money and starch is the cheapest type of food, and for another starch is the basis of human civilization and therefore shows up in pretty much every cuisine, avoiding it is inconvenient and makes social meals difficult. I also prefer to get most of my calories from carbs and without starch its very limiting.

I know histamine and probably estrogen are things to think about, which is why I mentioned them in that post.

Tara, I hadn't considered the blood sugar angle so I will try that. It's hard to know what to do about the gut bacteria thing which is what I'm leaning towards as the issue.

I just find it very weird that I have such a severe problem with starch and am trying to find more clues as to what's going on and maybe find people who have the same issue.

Starch: Feed bacteria that produces endotoxin => Raise serotonin/oestrogen/histamines => Hibernation hormones, goitrogens and excitotoxicty promoters (as well virtually every stress hormones) = Low energy, suicidal thoughts, myxedema (from low thyroid), etc.

I'm buying cooked peach puree from the store, there is no additive in it just added sugar and this is almost as inexpensive as starch.

Thanks Parsifal, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe if I focus on using more jam or refined sugar on top of juice it could get the cost down, I suppose most grain starches aren't much more nutritious than white sugar. It does make me wonder how things went so wrong in my gut or how I could fix it, but that is a complex question

artist said:

post 104509 Thanks Parsifal, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe if I focus on using more jam or refined sugar on top of juice it could get the cost down, I suppose most grain starches aren't much more nutritious than white sugar. It does make me wonder how things went so wrong in my gut or how I could fix it, but that is a complex question

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I agree that it could be feeding "bad" bacteria. I got a bout of Shigella food poisoning 3 years ago that has made me completely unable to eat starch since then. It used to cause really bad joint pain, but now it just gives me diarrhea / acne / bad emotions.

Yeah I ate two potatoes ten days ago and I still have this lingering flu feeling in my muscles

artist said:

post 104490 Actually my question was why does it make me sick, so no that doesn't answer it.

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Sorry, you’re right. I meant to say you have your solution; don’t eat it if it makes you feel such horrendous things.

Now, as to why does it make you feel that? I don’t know. It could be many different things. It’s hard to narrow it down.

Peat’s view on starch in the “optimal” Peat template sense would be little to no starch and if starch is consumed it should always be with butter or coconut oil. There is also a paradox with that though because Peat has also mentioned the fattening effect of too much butter so if one was to get daily calories from starch with added butter it would be too much fat calories overtime if one is not physically active, thus that leads you back to the Peat template of consuming little to no starch. The only starch Peat personally eats is the occasional nixtamalized corn and baby turnips when he’s in Mexico.

artist said:

post 104490 and for another starch is the basis of human civilization and therefore shows up in pretty much every cuisine, avoiding it is inconvenient and makes social meals difficult.

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Right. Which is why Peat wrote:

“There isn't anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.” - Ray Peat ("better foods" in that quote means fruit)

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml

which actually shows Peat’s brilliance because he is able to acknowledge this:



which also fits in line with this quote:

“For the present, the important thing is to avoid the use of the least appropriate food products, while choosing natural foods that have historical, epidemiological, and biochemical justification.” - Ray Peat

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/trypt ... ging.shtml

Silly Paleo people will say “yea and we became fat and sick when we started farming and eating all of that.”

Yep. Because the disease epidemic in the US with heart disease, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and cancer is all because everyone is eating quality steamed starch with no PUFA oils added to them or cooked in first, not tons of cheese added to it, non-flour products that are always packed with deli meats and chemicals, carrageenan, sawdust and the same chemical used for yoga mats in Subway bread, yep that's exactly the one and only reason why everyone is sick.

The "even a high starch diet isn't necessarily incompatible with good health" Peat quote allows you to take your Peat template in your own direction. I agree with you with what you said about the cost factor. But even if I could afford lots of fruit, I would still eat starch. It's not just a money thing. But the quality ripe sweet fruit availability factor is a big issue. I need to get my carbs from somewhere. You'll see Brad and Jeremy will probably show the part in their interview with Peat where he says something about making the best choices you can given your economic status and geographical location.

Now, if you would like to know how you could eat starch without bad effects, I need more information. I know you are 26 and female but I would also need to know the following:

Your height
Approximate weight
List of all current supplements
List of all current medications
Approximate location in the world
Bowel movements
General daily diet
General circadian rhythm times

If you would rather have a female around your age help you with this, then it is only logical to look at females around your age who are thriving off of high starch diets. Even if your goal has nothing to do with weight loss, in the context of eating starch like your thread here states, here are some:

Hannah Janish aka "High Carb Hannah," she offers coaching and may be able to help you with starch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkhpdKq-vk

Her instagram showing what she eats:

https://instagram.com/highcarbhannah

A little older, Chef AJ showing it can be done with age:



https://www.facebook.com/chef.aj1/timel ... e_internal

Cathy Fisher's starch based blog:

http://www.straightupfood.com/blog/

Parsifal said:

post 104497 Starch: Feed bacteria that produces endotoxin => Raise serotonin/oestrogen/histamines => Hibernation hormones, goitrogens and excitotoxicty promoters (as well virtually every stress hormones) = Low energy, suicidal thoughts, myxedema (from low thyroid), etc.

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It’s not that simple. I can show you about 100 different people who thrive off of high starch that are obviously are not having endotoxin poisoning including myself. But someone like the OP here may have that issue.

Also:

"Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.” - Ray Peat

Out of 116 Peat quotes on the subject of endotoxin, only 2 mention starch:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/1 ... endotoxin/

Endotoxin is not simply just from starch. It’s a bigger thyroid, metabolic and bowel function issue.

It may be something as simple as if you’ve restricted it for a while your body is ill equipped to handle it, at least for the time being. This seems to occur with a number of foods, for example milk. Maybe starting slowly and gradually increasing the amount will eventually allow you to handle it without issue?

artist said:

post 104490 Tara, I hadn't considered the blood sugar angle so I will try that. It's hard to know what to do about the gut bacteria thing which is what I'm leaning towards as the issue.

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I agree about starches being generally cheaper, and about the social aspects.

Refined sucrose is pretty cheap where I am, and I use some, but I don't use it for most of my carbs because of its mineral paucity. I seem to want at least a little starch most days anyway - something feels amiss without it. Potatoes and occasional white rice or oat porridge seem to agree with me, but not wheat doesn't. I suspect it has something to do with too high a fructose:glucose ratio for my current constitution when I drink a lot of apple juice.

This is not according to Peat's advice, but I've recently resumed an old habit of eating a little raw garlic every day or two. Peat has said garlic is as hard on the guts as it is on the bacteria. But so far I'm not noticing my guts being unhappy about it (who knows, though, I don't trust my enteroception all that far). I just chop it fine and mix it into my carrot salad. As far as I can tell, it is doing me more good than harm at the moment. The risk with it is that if I stop, the balance of gut microbes may grow back worse than it was before.

artist said:

post 104280 I have read Peat's articles and generally understand the logic behind his recommendation against starch, and I'm grateful for it - without Peat I would have continued thinking "carbs" in general make me sick, never realizing I can consume sugars without negative consequences.

When I eat a lot of starch on a daily basis, and I've experimented with many gluten-free varieties of starch (I still keep it low PUFA and mostly low fat, and I've played with whole and refined rice/corn, pasta, crackers, potatoes, starchy soups, legumes), within a week:

- I become extremely depressed to the point of suicidal thoughts, thinking that everyone I know hates me, general obsessive tendencies, overwhelming brain fog
- I slowly start to develop clogged pores and greasy skin and finally hormonal acne all along my jawline
- My face becomes puffy, eyes look sickly
- I start to require literally 12-14 hours of sleep per night, and feel hungover every morning, body feels heavy, nothing seems appealing but sleep and internet
- If I keep it up for more than a week I start to pile on weight (visibly, as I don't weigh myself) that I'm guessing is a mixture of fat and water retention...

Click to expand...

A minority view here, to be sure,
and unPeatian to boot, but...
there used to be a poster here named Stuart
who started a thread called something like "Why is there so much soluble fiber in human milk?"
He thought such strong negative reaction to starch
is diagnostic of SIBO.
I think I've got that approximately correct, from memory.
He was a big believer in aggressively consuming certain pro- or pre-biotics
and also eating a lot of what he said were the favorite food for "beneficial bacteria"--soluble fiber.

I mention this because, though that general view is unPeatian,
I have found, I think, that there may be something to it. :)

Do you have your appendix, by the way?

Maybe people with a lot of enzymes in their gut can eat starch without a lot of problems? In my case it gives me flu and hypothyroid symptoms. Maybe this is because people don't have tonsils and/or appendix (my case for both).

Such_Saturation said:

Yeah I ate two potatoes ten days ago and I still have this lingering flu feeling in my muscles

Click to expand...

I experienced that an enema with water and filtered lemon juice could help to cure this kind of flu fairly quickly but I unfortunately overdid it in the past (did it everyday because it was the only thing that could make me feel better when I was almost dying in a 24/24 7/7 shock state/tetany crisis and did not know nothing about Peat, I was trapped with Natural Hygiene and Fruitarian crap to try to heal myself), it makes you poop a lot of mucus and it made me unable to poop without drinking coffee (I may have damaged my gut nerves or colon peristalsis, I don't know how to heal that). Other kind of enema (water, coffee) don't help at all for that issue.
So it should only be done if there is a threatening food poisoning in my opinion.

This is "funny" Such because it seems that you have Ehler's Dandros and Marfan's syndrome symptoms like Hital Hernia (low enzymes?), etc. I have it too and I believe that endotoxins are responsible for the problem with mucopolysaccharydes going inside the joints and deviating it, etc. IIRC Peat said that it could be due to a high TSH?

narouz said:

...

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This could be a good idea in my opinion to use the Peataphone to know what he thinks about it. There is definitely good informations on this thread and this is a bit confusing.

The carbohydrate digesting enyme Amylase is a natural IgG histamine blocker, which stabilizes mast cells and basophils that release histamine at the start of an inflammatory response. The excessive consumption of carbohydrates will chronically deplete amylase thereby increasing histamine-related health problems such as allergen reactions and sinus headaches. Relief can be achieved through using plant-based enzymes with meals, as well as reducing carbohydrate consumption. Chronic carbohydrate consumption creates stress which exhausts the adrenal glands and the immune system, leaving the body open to attack. Enzymes normally break down allergens into smaller components in order to eliminate it without stressing the body. But in the case of allergic symptoms--when there are inadequate enzymes reserves in the body histamine is released rather than enzymatic breakdown of the allergens.

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http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.p ... =Histamine

I'm not digesting fruits well since many months now. Even if I chew very well and take time to eat the carotenes come undigested and I find bits undigested fruits in my stool.

Parsifal said:

post 104594

The carbohydrate digesting enyme Amylase is a natural IgG histamine blocker, which stabilizes mast cells and basophils that release histamine at the start of an inflammatory response. The excessive consumption of carbohydrates will chronically deplete amylase thereby increasing histamine-related health problems such as allergen reactions and sinus headaches. Relief can be achieved through using plant-based enzymes with meals, as well as reducing carbohydrate consumption. Chronic carbohydrate consumption creates stress which exhausts the adrenal glands and the immune system, leaving the body open to attack. Enzymes normally break down allergens into smaller components in order to eliminate it without stressing the body. But in the case of allergic symptoms--when there are inadequate enzymes reserves in the body histamine is released rather than enzymatic breakdown of the allergens.

Click to expand...

http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.p ... =Histamine.

Click to expand...

There could well be something to this line of thinking, Parsifal.
On the other hand,
the "Biology of Kundalini" website contains this "about" photo and note...



"My story starts in rural New Zealand at the age of 16, when inflamed with the heat of Eros and the Muse, I drew pictures of this curiously beautiful man with a conical spiral hat on his head. I knew the pictures I drew were of a new type of human I called the Universal Man, who would be born out of the old. Even back then I was aspiring to the mystic civilization."

narouz said:

the "Biology of Kundalini" website contains this "about" photo and note...



"My story starts in rural New Zealand at the age of 16, when inflamed with the heat of Eros and the Muse, I drew pictures of this curiously beautiful man with a conical spiral hat on his head. I knew the pictures I drew were of a new type of human I called the Universal Man, who would be born out of the old. Even back then I was aspiring to the mystic civilization."

Click to expand...

So what? I didn't post the whole website but just quoted this part of the text because it seems relevant here

Parsifal said:

post 104591 Maybe people with a lot of enzymes in their gut can eat starch without a lot of problems? In my case it gives me flu and hypothyroid symptoms. Maybe this is because people don't have tonsils and/or appendix (my case for both).

Such_Saturation said:

Yeah I ate two potatoes ten days ago and I still have this lingering flu feeling in my muscles

Click to expand...

I experienced that an enema with water and filtered lemon juice could help to cure this kind of flu fairly quickly but I unfortunately overdid it in the past (did it everyday because it was the only thing that could make me feel better when I was almost dying in a 24/24 7/7 shock state/tetany crisis and did not know nothing about Peat, I was trapped with Natural Hygiene and Fruitarian crap to try to heal myself), it makes you poop a lot of mucus and it made me unable to poop without drinking coffee (I may have damaged my gut nerves or colon peristalsis, I don't know how to heal that). Other kind of enema (water, coffee) don't help at all for that issue.
So it should only be done if there is a threatening food poisoning in my opinion.

This is "funny" Such because it seems that you have Ehler's Dandros and Marfan's syndrome symptoms like Hital Hernia (low enzymes?), etc. I have it too and I believe that endotoxins are responsible for the problem with mucopolysaccharydes going inside the joints and deviating it, etc. IIRC Peat said that it could be due to a high TSH?

Click to expand...

You can do the same thing with charcoal, the benefit lasts only about half a day as the charcoal sits in the affected region.

Parsifal said:

So what? I didn't post the whole website but just quoted this part of the text because it seems relevant here

Click to expand...

I know man. Just kiddin' around.

FredSonoma said:

post 104525

artist said:

post 104509 Thanks Parsifal, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe if I focus on using more jam or refined sugar on top of juice it could get the cost down, I suppose most grain starches aren't much more nutritious than white sugar. It does make me wonder how things went so wrong in my gut or how I could fix it, but that is a complex question

Click to expand...

I agree that it could be feeding "bad" bacteria. I got a bout of Shigella food poisoning 3 years ago that has made me completely unable to eat starch since then. It used to cause really bad joint pain, but now it just gives me diarrhea / acne / bad emotions.

Click to expand...

That's fascinating. It would be really helpful if I could identify something likethat although I'm not sure what action you can take to resolve the problem other than try to improve overall health? Have you experimented with antibiotics or garlic or anything like that?