Histamines: Why Peat Avoids Many Foods

Isadora · Mar 27, 2013

This excellent article called "Freshness Counts" by Georgia Ede MD, enlightened me about many aspects of Peat's described diet and what seemed to me his sometimes hard to comprehend avoidance of certain foods or manners of preparing them. It also provided multiple precious indications that I was minding too little what seemed to me like personal preferences of Dr. Peat's. There was solid science behind his avoidance of aged meat and fermented foods -- that of the histamines.

Don't let yourself be deterred from reading it because the author is now in her ketogenic phase -- I am sure she will grow out of it, hopefully without too much damage. Or else, we are all wrong here and we should go back to our proverbial "caves"...:)

Now, this is someone I would love to see discuss Raymond Peat's views!

Dr. Ede said:
Here is a list of the most common biogenic amines and the amino acids they are made from. You’ll notice that a couple of them have ghastly names, worthy of a Vincent Price voiceover: putrescine and the perfectly ghoulish cadaverine—mwaaah ah ah…

Parent amino acids are in green and their biogenic amine products are in red:

Arginine—Agmatine, Putrescine, Spermine, Spermidine
Histidine—Histamine
Lysine—Cadaverine
Ornithine—Putrescine, Spermine, Spermidine
Phenylalanine—Phenylethylamine
Tryptophan—Tryptamine, Serotonin
Tyrosine–Tyramine
To turn a garden variety amino acid into a powerful biogenic amine, you need to remove its carboxyl group. To accomplish this you need a special enzyme called a decarboxylase (fancy word for “enzyme that chops off carboxyl groups”).

Many species of bacteria and yeast contain the enzyme histidine decarboxylase (HDC), which turns histidine into histamine. So, when meat (or fish) is not immediately consumed or frozen, bacteria get straight to work breaking down the amino acids within it, and one of the by-products is histamine.

So, take-home lesson: eat your meat/fish either very fresh or confirm that it was frozen quickly. Seems simple enough, right? But wait, there’s more. We silly humans actually go out of our way to ferment foods on purpose. People like to play with food—we add bacteria to milk to make cheese and yogurt. We add yeast to grapes to make wine. We add bacteria to meat to make salami. In the process, these fresh foods—milk, grapes, and meat—which in their fresh forms are essentially histamine-free, become very high in histamine and other biogenic amines.

narouz · Mar 27, 2013

It's interesting to me that our old pal serotonin
is listed as an amine that comes from tryptophan
So I guess serotonin is a "biogenic amine"...?

Also, there's that note that bacteria is added to meat to make salami.
We were discussing that in another thread a little while ago.

Isadora · Mar 27, 2013

narouz said:
It's interesting to me that our old pal serotonin
is listed as an amine that comes from tryptophan
So I guess serotonin is a "biogenic amine"...?

It certainly looks that way, narouz. And Tyrosine, which I was planning on taking, too, and jnhermann advised against, because "it increases serotonin", is up there too, with its own nasty biogenic amine, called Tyramine. I will avoid these things from now on. Again, another endorsement to Peat's saying that amino acids should best be taken in natural combinations and not separately, as we cannot really control their fabrication process (where they can probably turn into biogenic amines, who would know the difference, right?) Well, perhaps for many it could still work to a certain extent, but for the most sensitive, it might not.

Very interesting.

But...did you read the entire article, narouz? That is just a quote... (I should have made it more clear, sorry everyone!)

It's full of interesting, Peat-echoing tidbits... I wonder if Peat's "endotoxins" aren't, in fact, these "biogenic amines"? Or histamines? I think they just might be! :shock:

I don't want to post her content here without permission. Plus, I think she deserves the traffic to her site and maybe she will come talk to us here about Dr. Peat's ideas if we extend a bridge in the logs. Or even an invitation in the "Comments" section, she seems very approachable. And that section is pretty good, too, nice people posting.

Here is another paragraph about estrogen and histamines:

Dr. Ede said:
Women seem to comprise the majority of people who complain of histamine intolerance. This may be because estrogen and histamine reinforce each other—histamine can increase estrogen levels and vice versa, which may explain why histamine intolerance is associated with pre-menstrual cramps and menstrual migraine. Even more fascinating is that pregnant women may experience relief from food sensitivities during pregnancy because the placenta secretes very high amounts of diamine oxidase, or DAO, the enzyme that destroys histamine.

Isadora · Mar 27, 2013

I take that back, I hadn't looked closely: Histamines are just a subclass of the spectrum of biogenic amines, which Ray Peat might be referring to as "endotoxins". Perhaps the entire thread should be named "Biogenic Amines: Why Peat Avoids Many Foods", but hey, let's not be perfectionists here... :)

Now I wonder if all amino-acids, and not just those mentioned, have their own biogenic amines, in other words, if they can all be decarboxylated in our bodies or on their way to our bodies?

So everything that makes its way to our palatial palates should be squeaky clean and fresh, or else, right? And our guts should be clean, too, not too many bacteria hanging in there for an opportunity to decarboxylate our food and offer us instead cadaverous components, right? Wow. Now I (think I'm beginning to) get it!

Has anyone tried that magic DAO supplement?

Jenn · Mar 27, 2013

Thank you so much for posting the link. My nutritionist talks about polyamines all the time, dead flesh proteins.

Now I can have something to use to try to explain to people why we don't age our meat.

jyb · Mar 27, 2013

How fresh is fresh? If I go to butchers, some pieces have been cut the day before or earlier. Then let's say I store it overnight in the fridge. That could be a few days between the time its cut and cooked...

Isadora · Mar 27, 2013

Jenn said:
Thank you so much for posting the link. My nutritionist talks about polyamines all the time, dead flesh proteins. Now I can have something to use to try to explain to people why we don't age our meat.

You're welcome, Jenn! I'm very glad I finally understood this stuff... And Mittir just posted in another thread the scientific article that is behind this (easier to read) material -- maybe you'd like to check it out... I loved it -- thanks again, Mittir!

Also, Jenn, I checked out your blog! The dream life! But it does take a lot of knowledge and skill. I aspire to live like that one day...

jyb said:
How fresh is fresh? If I go to butchers, some pieces have been cut the day before or earlier. Then let's say I store it overnight in the fridge. That could be a few days between the time its cut and cooked...

Yes, I have a bunch of questions about that, too... And whether those biogenic amines develop in the freezer, too? Probably not, otherwise Peat wouldn't have bought frozen OJ for all those years, right?

Jenn · Mar 27, 2013

Fresh is 5 days or less from kill to freezer or plate. May or may not be possible with out doing contracting directly with a farmer or processor. If you already have an inflammatory issue, especially lymphoma or something like that, you would need to be very careful. If you normally healthy otherwise, then you may just need to pick your battles.

charlie · Mar 27, 2013

Great thread, Isadora. Thank you. :)

charlie · Mar 27, 2013

Well, you have totally made up my mind for me about ordering some grass fed beef from the farmer I usually do. I have been putting it off for some reason. One of their selling points is that they dry age the beef for something like close to a month. NO THANKS!

Will look for a local place to get some lamb and make sure no dry aging.

At this rate, I should live to like 1000 years. Right? :holysheep

jyb · Mar 27, 2013

Jenn said:
Fresh is 5 days or less from kill to freezer or plate. May or may not be possible with out doing contracting directly with a farmer or processor. If you already have an inflammatory issue, especially lymphoma or something like that, you would need to be very careful. If you normally healthy otherwise, then you may just need to pick your battles.

I know nothing about this but wouldn't any decent butcher be quite fresh (2-3 days max)? Then it'd leave a day or two for eating.

More specifically, I'm asking about liver (calves liver, still bloody, bright red, fading red maybe brown), steak (still red, maybe some brown areas appearing but not uniform yet), and oysters (quite fresh - so most of them still alive and the rest died within a day).

Isadora · Mar 28, 2013

Charlie said:
Great thread, Isadora. Thank you. :)

But of course... I'm glad I finally contributed something you consider useful.. :angel:

Charlie said:
Well, you have totally made up my mind for me about ordering some grass fed beef from the farmer I usually do. I have been putting it off for some reason. One of their selling points is that they dry age the beef for something like close to a month. NO THANKS!

Will look for a local place to get some lamb and make sure no dry aging.

At this rate, I should live to like 1000 years. Right?

I am seeing things in a different light as well. It's like Peat's texts gained hidden meanings. (We sound more and more like interpreters of holy texts here

)

And my life just got a lot more complicated, with important food habits shifted around...

jyb said:
Jenn said:

Fresh is 5 days or less from kill to freezer or plate. May or may not be possible with out doing contracting directly with a farmer or processor. If you already have an inflammatory issue, especially lymphoma or something like that, you would need to be very careful. If you normally healthy otherwise, then you may just need to pick your battles.

Click to expand...

I know nothing about this but wouldn't any decent butcher be quite fresh (2-3 days max)? Then it'd leave a day or two for eating.

More specifically, I'm asking about liver (calves liver, still bloody, bright red, fading red maybe brown), steak (still red, maybe some brown areas appearing but not uniform yet), and oysters (quite fresh - so most of them still alive and the rest died within a day).

Don't they mention the date of the abatement on their packaging? Here they do, for packaged meats at least.

Tricky as this meat issue is, I see even more problems with fruits and (even root) veggies... I'll start another thread on this...

jyb · Mar 28, 2013

@Isadora: Have you tested antihistamines?

Isadora · Mar 28, 2013

No, I'm on these antibiotics now, but as soon as I get off I'll do that... "Yum!" :)

Have you?

jyb · Mar 28, 2013

No, I like to avoid any drugs if possible due to cost and to the sometimes really insane added ingredients or side effects which could offset the benefits - though I'm open to it if its to test an idea for just a few days.

Jenn · Mar 28, 2013

jyb said:
Jenn said:

Fresh is 5 days or less from kill to freezer or plate. May or may not be possible with out doing contracting directly with a farmer or processor. If you already have an inflammatory issue, especially lymphoma or something like that, you would need to be very careful. If you normally healthy otherwise, then you may just need to pick your battles.

Click to expand...

I know nothing about this but wouldn't any decent butcher be quite fresh (2-3 days max)? Then it'd leave a day or two for eating.

More specifically, I'm asking about liver (calves liver, still bloody, bright red, fading red maybe brown), steak (still red, maybe some brown areas appearing but not uniform yet), and oysters (quite fresh - so most of them still alive and the rest died within a day).

Organs really need to be consumed or frozen that day for the full benefits. You can't assume freshness, you have to ask. Grocery store meat may take 3 weeks to get to the shelves, then they have color enhancers to make it look fresh while sitting on the shelves.

jyb · Mar 28, 2013

Jenn said:
Organs really need to be consumed or frozen that day for the full benefits. You can't assume freshness, you have to ask. Grocery store meat may take 3 weeks to get to the shelves, then they have color enhancers to make it look fresh while sitting on the shelves.

But things like copper, zinc and retinol wouldn't get affected?

Isadora · Mar 28, 2013

I'd rather take supplements in this case, jyb... Give me silica and other non living additives any time over cadaverine and putrescine..:)

pboy · Mar 28, 2013

Ive been avoiding fermented foods for a while now, something about them didn't make me feel good.
Im now wondering if cacao or coffee would have any histamines considering whent he fruit pulp is sweated off the seeds in production they are
partially fermented? I haven't had any trouble with quality dark chocolate, but sometimes coffee gives some gas...perhaps some acidic residues? (and/or amines)

Dr.GeorgiaEde · Mar 28, 2013

Hi Isadora and everyone else--

Joe Paleo sent me a tweet earlier today letting me know about this nice thread, so I thought it I would pop over and say hello. Thank you for the interest in the histamine article--it is perfectly ok with me if you post excerpts here--the great thing about the internet is once you post something, it becomes public and people get to share it and toss it about to think it all over. I am not familiar with Ray Peat's work and have an unusually busy stretch coming up the next few days because of work and Easter weekend traveling, but if anyone has questions or if there is something you'd like me to ponder with you, I'm happy to do it once I'm back in town on Monday!

Have a nice weekend!

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