Good Values for Omega-6 Fatty Acids

Since I eat whole foods and reject most processed foods, I test very low for Omega-6 fatty acids. On the Metamatrix ION Panel I test in the lowest quintile of the population. Since most people in the USA are suffering from Omega-6 poisoning (massive overdose), being in the lowest quintile doesn't necessarily mean anything bad I would think. Nevertheless, has *anyone* published a reputable guideline for the target levels of Omega-6 fatty acids? My values for these were (in umol/L):

Linoleic 768
Gamma Linolenic 6
Eicosadienoic 5.6
Dihomogamma Linolenic 21
Docosatetraenoic 4.4

This one I was in the 3rd Quintile:
Arachidonic 298

This one I was in the 5th quintile:
Docosadienoic 0.3

The Osteopath I saw wants me to increase my intake of Omega-6 fats, but I would like to have some objective target values to work with.

I'm at high levels on my Omega-3, and he has an equal concern that the high Omega-3 levels will outcompete the Omega-6 for the same receptors. Again, I'm not sure that is bad?

pone said:

Since I eat whole foods and reject most processed foods, I test very low for Omega-6 fatty acids. On the Metamatrix ION Panel I test in the lowest quintile of the population. Since most people in the USA are suffering from Omega-6 poisoning (massive overdose), being in the lowest quintile doesn't necessarily mean anything bad I would think. Nevertheless, has *anyone* published a reputable guideline for the target levels of Omega-6 fatty acids? My values for these were (in umol/L):

Linoleic 768
Gamma Linolenic 6
Eicosadienoic 5.6
Dihomogamma Linolenic 21
Docosatetraenoic 4.4

This one I was in the 3rd Quintile:
Arachidonic 298

This one I was in the 5th quintile:
Docosadienoic 0.3

The Osteopath I saw wants me to increase my intake of Omega-6 fats, but I would like to have some objective target values to work with.

I'm at high levels on my Omega-3, and he has an equal concern that the high Omega-3 levels will outcompete the Omega-6 for the same receptors. Again, I'm not sure that is bad?

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I didn't know there were still people who recommended omega-6! I'd remove all PUFA from my diet personally.

narouz said:

This is interesting.
You know, we Peatians fear and revile the Demon PUFA.
And we check off the days on the calendar for years and years...
until that magic 4 years is up
and the Poison has been Exorcised...

But I think this is the first time I've heard of testing one's levels.
I don't know why it never occurred to me.

I wonder if the tests are well designed.

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Yeah its interesting. I wonder how accurate they would be? I imagine youd need to fast prior to the blood draw to see what is being liberated from the tissues.

the omega 6 info given to the public and by advertisers is dangerous. Americans are not omega 6 excess...its not even close actually. The problem with omega 6 is that when they are heated past 340 they become oxidized and then non bioavailable, and become a burden on the body to remove. America is suffering from an omega 6 deficiceny, because most of the omega 6 they take in is already oxidized and not bioavailable. They take in too many oxidized unusable omega 6, but too little actually fresh cellularly active omega6. The ideal ratio omega 3 to 6 is not 1 to 1, people never ate that ratio in history, not even apes eat that ratio. The true ratio the body optimizes to, what breask milk is, is about 1:6 3:6. Don't overheat or roast any food, steam or boil it, and the omega 6 is not a problem
Look at the post I made at the bottom of this page
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2992&start=10

and the post on the last page following for more info

basically DHA, EPA, AA are all dangerous to take in from diet. Fresh plant or milk based omega3/6 are not only a non issue, but might be slightly beneficial in the scheme of things...to the same extent oleic acid is

id say a safe good amount would be between 3-6 grams, even up to a little more, but quality matters...freshness
as an adult, the fat requirement is half or less than that of an infant or child, so we need very little. And as long as there is always sugar or saturated fat to burn, we don't burn ourselves out of any necessary fatty acids

pboy said:

America is suffering from an omega 6 deficiceny, because most of the omega 6 they take in is already oxidized and not bioavailable.

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What would be the effect of this deficiency?

Why we even entertaining this idea of ideal levels of Omega 6 fatty acids? According to the Peat protocol the ideal level of any PUFA values is absolutely zero. Zip, zilch, none. Ray Peat isn't ambiguous at all about this. He feels that any PUFA coming from the diet is more or less toxic. :2cents

im just saying this mostly to oppose the mainstream view that everyone automatically gets too much omega 6. Even if it all was fresh, bioavailable, and something necessary...if you look at what people eat and data, they hardly even meet the recommended intake of around 15g omega 6 per day. That theory came out of someones **** and somehow spread like wildfire, and the result is people actually doing the opposite of what is said. They take in all these omega 3's, avoid omega 6's, and massively throw the ratio in the wrong direction. The breast milk ratio like I said is 1 to 7 in favor of omega6. The thing about us needing a 1 to 1 ratio also came out of someones **** and spread like wildfire, leading to the sale of certain products and people avoiding omega 6's. Its incredibly dumb and highly dangerous acutally, especially eating fish oil.
Someone has to check this ***t, and for sure I check it in my own mind every time I hear someone bring anything up about this. The ratio on our cell membranes, coincidentally (not) is nearly exactly the fat ratios in breast milk, that is how they try to organize if given enough fuel to burn and nutrition.

Such saturation, im not sure the effects...ive been reading a lot and experimenting, so ill let you know. Im gonna take some Peatarian leaps and try stuff in the near future...im highly sensitive, im like shen nong...ill identify any culprit and be able to know its effects within a couple days. Supposedly, its bad for a whole lot of stuff...omega 6 deficiency...according to science. It hinders cell respiration, some transport proteins, I believe even immune system, and the further elongated arachadonal functions serve to buffer and regulate gastric fire, facilitate growth of new tissue...muscle tissue, retain skin moisture, promote hair growth, and are what modulate and activate the bodie's various cannabinoid receptors. That's the thing that really made me want to look into this more. Ananadamide and 2 AG( 2-arachadonal glycerol) are the bodies two endogenous activators of the entire cannabinoid system, and they are both synthesized from arachadonic acid. This system is huge...for so many reasons, you can research it. And on top of that, human breast milk contains a significant quanitity of preformed 2AG

ive been getting some omega 6 from all the milk fat I consume, a least 3-4 grams a day. As a vegan before and in the past i consumed a lot more, like 10-17g omega 6 a day. I don't know if I can tell a tangible difference based on them alone, but there is something that I feel is left unsatisfied by this approach...and somehow im thinking this might be a part....which is why to know for sure, im gonna test in the near future...like tomorrow maybe

the thing you have to realize about Peats work is this...he was right, im sure he interpreted all the pufa and corn oil soy oil tests correctly. But I guarantee you this...none of those studies ever used legit oils. Every one was gaurenteed to use likely non organic, hexane extracted, high heat processed, oil seed oils, or preformed fish oils. How many tests use fresh pressed, non oxidized, pure, never heated high, light protected, organic sunflower oil? or walnut oil? probably none, and I am almost certain there would be a significantly different result. Also Peat's research was mainly done before any info on the cannabinoid system was known. They didn't even identify the endogenous activators until the mid or late 90's...so there might be more involved.

like I said, I don't know at this point, and I plan on testing it. But all the stuff I said above bout omega's the 6 to 3 ratio and all that, is true...either way, even if its all an irrelivent topic

pboy said:

the omega 6 info given to the public and by advertisers is dangerous. Americans are not omega 6 excess...its not even close actually. The problem with omega 6 is that when they are heated past 340 they become oxidized and then non bioavailable, and become a burden on the body to remove. America is suffering from an omega 6 deficiceny, because most of the omega 6 they take in is already oxidized and not bioavailable. They take in too many oxidized unusable omega 6, but too little actually fresh cellularly active omega6. The ideal ratio omega 3 to 6 is not 1 to 1, people never ate that ratio in history, not even apes eat that ratio. The true ratio the body optimizes to, what breask milk is, is about 1:6 3:6. Don't overheat or roast any food, steam or boil it, and the omega 6 is not a problem
Look at the post I made at the bottom of this page
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2992&start=10

and the post on the last page following for more info

basically DHA, EPA, AA are all dangerous to take in from diet. Fresh plant or milk based omega3/6 are not only a non issue, but might be slightly beneficial in the scheme of things...to the same extent oleic acid is

id say a safe good amount would be between 3-6 grams, even up to a little more, but quality matters...freshness
as an adult, the fat requirement is half or less than that of an infant or child, so we need very little. And as long as there is always sugar or saturated fat to burn, we don't burn ourselves out of any necessary fatty acids

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I'm not coming from Everything Has to be RP All the Time.
But it would seem you depart from Peat here a bit.
Or maybe not.
But could you focus in on that some?
I don't think Peat has ever gone past All PUFA are Bad
except for that Mead thing.
You're saying some forms of PUFA are good?

not sure if good...but probably similar to oleic acid, just a neutral energy source. I think theres quite a big difference between hexane extracted high heat non organic seed oils, the long chain DHA EPA, and a high quality fresh seed oil. I haven't tested this enough yet to have a really good grasp. Ive honestly been kind of afraid to...but im getting to that robust point where I have a good plan to rely on, and feel like I could maybe test in the near future

I had a similar test done a couple years ago called Nutraval or nutreval FMV that showed very low Omega-6 and zero DGLA. Our body supposedly converts Omega-6 to DGLA. I've never been able to find any sensible information on this topic except from Peat ofcourse who doesn't view Omega-6 as necessary or essential but harmful (as you already know). My old doctor had me supplementing for this 'deficiency' but upon discovering Peat's work I stopped. I haven't looked back and my health has steadily improved. Just thought I'd share that personal experience from someone who tested low in Omega-6.

"The unsaturated fats show up first in animals after weaning. In some experiments, when the pregnant animal is given a certain amount of these bean oils, soybean oil for example, or corn oil, the mother's body protects the fetus from absorbing these, and the little bit that gets into the fetus tends to be expelled into the fetus' intestine, showing that the developing embryo and fetus act as if they don't want to absorb unsaturated fats. The nursing baby also is highly protected so that if you look at the respiratory enzymes in their mitochondria, in all of their organs, especially the brain, during embryonic and fetal development, and even during nursing, these are extremely deficient in unsaturated fatty acids that are called essential fatty acids. " - Ray Peat

pboy said:

the omega 6 info given to the public and by advertisers is dangerous. Americans are not omega 6 excess...its not even close actually. The problem with omega 6 is that when they are heated past 340 they become oxidized and then non bioavailable, and become a burden on the body to remove. America is suffering from an omega 6 deficiceny, because most of the omega 6 they take in is already oxidized and not bioavailable. They take in too many oxidized unusable omega 6, but too little actually fresh cellularly active omega6. The ideal ratio omega 3 to 6 is not 1 to 1, people never ate that ratio in history, not even apes eat that ratio. The true ratio the body optimizes to, what breask milk is, is about 1:6 3:6. Don't overheat or roast any food, steam or boil it, and the omega 6 is not a problem
Look at the post I made at the bottom of this page
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2992&start=10

Click to expand...

The average American is getting Omega 6 to Omega 3 in about a 20 to 1 ratio. So even forgetting your guidance on Omega 6 quality, the average American is ingesting too much Omega 6.

Let's agree with your target ratios, and let's say we want a 4:1 to 6:1 ratio of Omega-6 to Omega-3. My question is from the lab tests I presented in the first test, how the heck do I even calculate this ratio?!! I have all of the Omega-3 metabolites reported. I just have no clinical guideline on how to calculate this ratio!

the whole 18 to 1 or 20 to 1 ratio is kind of out of thin air. The only people that would apply to are people who live off fast food, little debbie snack cakes, and potato chips only. Most people are probably hovering around a decent ratio, its just all rancid and preoxidized versions of the fat. Anything deep fried, industrially processed, fried for too long, baked above 350, roasted, burnt in any way, is not any longer viable. Anything that is cooked then packaged and shelved, or put in the fridge and reheated a few days later, likely the fats are no longer viable. Who these days eats fresh seeds and/or seed oils, nuts, and steams rather than bakes or roasts, or eat raw/soaked? Or how many people use fresh pressed seed oils stored in amber (like olive oil), every day? Its pretty easy to see the issue when you realize this

The only way to calculate would be to find the values everything you eat has and add it up...you don't need to trip about it that much. But if you wanted theres plenty of online databases that have the values

Im just putting this out there, I know people following Peat don't want to hear it, but I cant lie, and have to say what I think is true and potentially something to consider

I also want to add that I don't know if it makes a difference or not in overall health

pboy said:

the whole 18 to 1 or 20 to 1 ratio is kind of out of thin air. The only people that would apply to are people who live off fast food, little debbie snack cakes, and potato chips only. Most people are probably hovering around a decent ratio,

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Where do you get your facts? The Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio of the average American diet is one of the best documented statistics in the scientific literature. Even going back to the famous studies that William Lands did in the 1990s it has been widely studied and published throughout the scientific literature. Can you find a single peer reviewed scientific study to back your assertion that this ratio is out of thin air? I count not less than 100 studies documenting ratios from 10:1 to 30:1 on Pubmed. Spend five minutes doing real research?

The only way to calculate would be to find the values everything you eat has and add it up...you don't need to trip about it that much. But if you wanted theres plenty of online databases that have the values

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That's what I am afraid of as well. And that is a HELLISH amount of work. Mind boggling amounts of detail on every meal you eat, digging out the fatty acid profiles and adding that all up. And even if you did that, how are you supposed to weight the values of the different types of Omega-6 and Omega-3? At best, you might end up guessing.

Surely there has to be a way to approximate this ratio from the measured fatty acids in the blood? I mean couldn't I just take the total value of all of the Omega-6 fatty acids in my blood test, and the total value of the Omega-3 fatty acids, and construct a ratio from the sum of each? And isn't that what you are doing in a dietary analysis in effect anyway? Except dietary analysis will only show what you consume, whereas adding up the actual fatty acids measured in blood would show what you *absorbed* from food, which strikes me as more useful?

But how do we know the blood measurement actually reports on all key fatty acids in each group? Sticky problem for a layman (which I am).

I also want to add that I don't know if it makes a difference or not in overall health

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The health or harm of Omega-6 fatty acids is one of those incredibly contentious subjects in the literature. The biochemists will swear on their bibles that it is pure metabolic poison. The clinicians will all point to (mostly flawed) studies showing reductions in various kinds of inflammation. The best summary of this scientific debate I have read is in a biochemical journal:

http://www.asbmb.org/asbmbtoday/asbmbto ... x?id=18365

I found it particularly interesting how the biochemists argue that the key research that is required to prove or disprove the effects of low levels of Omega-6 will never get funded.

I kind of think its so up in the air because...there are so many variables with fatty acids...even their position on the triglyceride matters, and of course if they've been oxidized or not. A lot of them aren't pure either, lots of the chemicals used (if any) remain...albeit trace amounts but sometimes that matters. And then there are certain seeds like canola that have other offensive fatty acids that aren't related to the omega6. And people don't make a clear distinction between fish oils and seed oils...they for all intents and purposes should be looked at as 2 different things all together


oh and by the way, I have added up full diet plans, meticulously many times ...many times, the fat ratios. That's just a part of what ive done. So I actually do know how they generally end up, and what people eat. Ive done various scenarios...I can basically recite to you the nutrional content of nearly any food you can think of...and I didn't even learn it on purpose, I just did many calculations.

You have to keep in mind this....how would that even be possible to get to 1:20 ratio?
Canola oil is 1:2
Soybean oil is 1:7
Palm oil is low in omega 6, but absent in omega 3...to change the ratio people would need to be eating hundreds of grams, multiple hundreds
The sunflower and safflower used are the high oleic kind, which are almost absent in omega 6...300mg or so per 14grams
Corn oil and peanut oil would be the only ways to skew the ratio bad...and I guess like bacon and fried chicken

it would require a herculean effort of the worst junk food to achieve a 1:20 ratio, and even then...a lot of junk food is soybean and palm oil...and those aren't
even close to 1:20. I seriously doubt that applies to anyone other than binge eating obese. Like...no one I know eats THAT bad

pboy said:

oh and by the way, I have added up full diet plans, meticulously many times ...many times, the fat ratios. That's just a part of what ive done. So I actually do know how they generally end up, and what people eat. Ive done various scenarios...I can basically recite to you the nutrional content of nearly any food you can think of...and I didn't even learn it on purpose, I just did many calculations.

You have to keep in mind this....how would that even be possible to get to 1:20 ratio?
Canola oil is 1:2
Soybean oil is 1:7
Palm oil is low in omega 6, but absent in omega 3...to change the ratio people would need to be eating hundreds of grams, multiple hundreds
The sunflower and safflower used are the high oleic kind, which are almost absent in omega 6...300mg or so per 14grams
Corn oil and peanut oil would be the only ways to skew the ratio bad...and I guess like bacon and fried chicken

it would require a herculean effort of the worst junk food to achieve a 1:20 ratio, and even then...a lot of junk food is soybean and palm oil...and those aren't
even close to 1:20. I seriously doubt that applies to anyone other than binge eating obese. Like...no one I know eats THAT bad

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Go to this website and sort by the O6 to 03 ratio column on top right:
http://dietgrail.com/omega-3-omega-6-ratio/

Margarine like spread at 1740:1 ratio!!!
Sesame Oil at 138:1 ratio.
Corn Oil at 46:1 ratio.

There are plenty of people in the US who get up and eat donuts, McDonald's, use processed salad dressings, etc. People who live on processed foods are eating toxic Omega-6 rich diets.

its possible...I mean you could say coconut oil has a 200 to 1 ratio! but its cause its such a small amount, and no omega3

That whole rhetoric was carefully designed to get people to buy fish oil and (flax, krill) eventually, supplements. The average decently healthy American
would never need to do something like that, and its really bad for them. Most of my family started taking it...im like are you serious? and they pretty average, not that much junk food. The only reason anyone considers it...look at any article, and recipe video, ANYTHING that talks about omega fats or fats at all, and it always says EVERYONE gets too much omega6, and not only should you add omega 3 to balance it out, you shouldn't eat any omega 6 at all!!! so in one foul swoop, they reverse the ratio way too much, worse in the other direction, and take in a toxic dose of fish oil. Its exaggerated for market effect...big time. No one ever says...well actually, omega6 is the most important one by far, and you should have a 7:1 ratio...so if anything, you should maybe have one less junk food meal a day. Its this huge all or nothing need to completely swing 100% the other direction and never touch omega6! all in the name of selling the pills (rancid pills)

I used to work in a health food store for years...I hear how people talk and what their motivations are...sadly, most of the time, they themselves aren't healthy, and set things up to target certain groups at certain eye levels with certain fear based rhetoric...and it works

pboy, I've thought about your posts along these lines quite a bit. I'm still not sure if I understand what you're getting at.

If you mean that we shouldn't worry about the small amounts of n-6 or n-3 PUFAs we inevitably consume, then I agree with you. I like Mittir's posts which say, in various ways, that getting aggravated at something can be worse than the something. That applies well to the small amount of PUFAs.

If you mean we can consume Canola Oil ad libitum, I have to say you are pretty far away from RP's ideas.

The n-6 to n-3 ratio is only one aspect of the problem, the absolute amounts of these fatty acids may be just as important. (from my limited research)

And I think you should be sure they pulled it out their a** yourself before you make me research it to see if you are wrong. I suspect there are many more convincing analyses than the simple listing of ratios.

If the problem with n-6 fatty acids is mostly eating the oxidized form, I would again like to see some supporting evidence.

In his article about Coconut Oil, Ray said

The unsaturated oils in some cooked foods become rancid in just a few hours, even at refrigerator temperatures, and are responsible for the stale taste of left-over foods. (Eating slightly stale food isn't particularly harmful, since the same oils, even when eaten absolutely fresh, will oxidize at a much higher rate once they are in the body, where they are heated and thoroughly mixed with an abundance of oxygen.)

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I'll give you that cooking with PUFAs at over 340* creates a lot of lipid peroxides. But what difference does it make if the body would have created the same lipid peroxides anyway if you ate the oil fresh?

I don't mean to say anything is right or wrong. I try to be a perfectionist (not intentionally) in thought along the lines of Peat, just for theory sake, so in my own mind I don't rule out the possibility of some value to a small amount of omega 6 or 3. By no means would I ever consume canola oil. Some fresh steamed sunflower seed? I might give it a try just for the sake of knowing. Ive been eating Peat inspired for a while now...low overall PUFAs, pretty much non oxidized (outside ghee) and am doing fine...so I don't think we need a large quantity either way.

I pretty much just said what I did to bring light and awareness to the subject...and that there is a slight potential that there is a reason the research data and recommendations might not be entirely accurate, complete, and might be oversimplified. Its kind of hard to give info to the public that requires dynamic thought, and most...pretty much all, the essential fatty acid info put out is for the sole sake of market scare value to sell supplements

I don't think the body would create lipid peroxides from a small amount of pufa coming in with the antioxidants, vit E, and not pre oxidized...or else we'd all be screwed! At the least, the body deals with it appropriately...even if it is just rapid beta oxidation