Yogurt/Probiotics after a round of Antibiotics?

narouz

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There is a bit of a gap or disconnect on this particular point in The Peatdom.

Peat has said sterile guts (animal studies) do fine, even better,
until they come up against bad bacteria.

He has said our guts have evolved an equilibrium between good bacteria and bad.

He has said something to the effect, in relation to gut bacteria:
If we are going to be exposed to bacteria,
better to learn to live with them.

He has--sortuv under the radar--said certain antibiotics for the gut
can be useful in certain situations.

And yet:
I've never heard him speak well of probiotics/yogurt/kefir, etc.
In fact, he always seems to speak ill of them.

So...seems to me there's a gap or disconnect there.

I've come to the tentative conclusion--
have filled the gap, in other words, with the notion that--
it makes sense to actively repopulate the gut after antibiotics.

What do you think?
 
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Antibiotics (in a dream world) bring you towards sterility of which there is only one. "Probiotics" bring you away from sterility, towards infinite and uncontrollable combinations of intestinal growth. I think that's Ray Peat's rationale, and he probably dismisses an analytical treatment of the flora system just like he dismisses an analytical treatment of the prostaglandin system. Too many variables when you can just try to eat well.
 

LucyL

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I seem to remember him talking about probiotics in an interview once (probably KMUD), there are a lot of different strains used in probiotics, some are better than others but getting a large colony of just one, even a "good" one could be problematic.

When I had back to back courses of antibiotics for a UTI the doctor gave me an anti-yeast prescription even though I didn't have a yeast infection, because he was sure I would by the time the antibiotics were done. Well, I didn't need it. Whether due to my high sugar intake (heh) keeping the yeasts happy or the fact that I did take some probiotics is hard to say. My recommendation on probiotics is to take the capsules, avioding the lactic acid in yoghurt, and to choose something with a wide variety of strains. A little extra sugar intake while your sick probably wouldn't be hurtful.

The otherway to establish good gut flora is plain old dirt. Dr. Art Ayers at the Cooling Inflammation blog advocates barely rinsing off fresh picked vegetables, playing with a dirty dog and stuff like that for a natural approach to gut flora.
 

Mittir

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I do not see any disconnect there. RP only recommends selected antibiotics.
His main concern is lactic acid in fermented products, in large amount
lactic acid burdens the liver. He also mentioned lactic acid sends
stress signals. That is the main problem of fermented products.
His comment on sterile gut is purely theoretical.
Yogurt only supplies few strains of bacteria. I remember reading
people have several hundreds to thousands type of bacteria in gut.
Using carrot salad or bamboo shoots with saturated fat and vinegar
(all these have anti-bacterial properties) can keep the good bacteria
count higher and bad bacteria lower. Endotoxins mainly come from
gram-negative bacteria. If you can ingest bacteria without lactic acid
i do not see any problem there. But, we know very little about specific
strain of bacteria, how they act inside the intestine. For example,
H Pylori causes stomach ulcer but it is said to increase guts immune system.
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com ... s-and.html
and
 

Suikerbuik

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You'd think it makes sense to help reestablish the gut after antibiotics. However those bacteria found in probiotics usually do not repopulate your gut. They only help to form a new balance. Lactid acid bacteria inhibit some pathogens, affect the immune reponse and some strains have shown to lower intestinal permeability.

I would do probiotics temporary only. Not that most of these bacteria are harmful (in most cases), but I think the effect of these probiotics is neglible while they cost a lot. If you do benefit then you've also major other problems going on and probiotics will only mask and suppress. It's better to keep your metabolism and associated immunity up.

you metabolism is quite stable over time, but can permanently change after infection

The lifestyle and function of the host is way more important in selecting the microbiome it needs. The body has evolved to regulate itself efficiently if you give it all the resources. I don't see lactid acid bacteria as something we have evolved with. Bacteria found in the soil or from healthy humans itself can be another story, but I'd absolutely not trust products from this branch now. Get some contact with mature and eat tubers/ root vegetables from non-pesticide soil, since pesticides and artificial fertilizer are known to alter the soil microbiome.

you and your germ cloud
 

Suikerbuik

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H pylori is an interesting one indeed Mittir :). According to M. Blaser:

Evidence points to H. pylori being an ancient and persistent guest in the human gastrointestinal system, rather than an acute infection. But in the past few decades, the prevalence of H. pylori has declined, offering an unprecedented opportunity to track the demise of a member of the normal human flora. In developed countries, the bacteria now affects 20–50% of adults, but studies show that there has been a 50% decline in the prevalence of H. pylori in the USA since 1968 (http://www.helico.com).

Blaser said. “In my mind, Helicobacter doesn't cause ulcers [and] gastric cancer, it increases the risk for ulcers [and] gastric cancer—just as smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, it increases risk.”

source
 
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So what is it exactly about a product you know nothing about that is better than simple random repopulation?
 

pboy

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antibiotics attack your gut lining and other cells just like any toxin, so its foolish to use them unless you have a serious infection. Probiotics can lead to infection and even if you deal with them they don't confer a benefit, its just...they can be non toxic or toxic, never beneficial. Ive tried eating any number of fermented foods in the past and stuff "fortified" with probiotics, even had yogurt a few days ago. After not eating it for a while I was almost offended at the initial taste and smell...its amazing what a refined clean palate senses. It was like sour slightly gone bad mud milk. Im sure it would be the same for babies/kids. I don't think any fermented food is good, or any probiotic. Its like asking for trouble for no good reason. The reason you cant just load antibiotics to have a sterile gut is because in of themselves they are liver, gut, and/or metabolically toxic. The only real pure defense is your bodies own mucoid immune factors, of with which the basic things like a good sugar intake, glycogen, and thyroid are the most important for (and protein to an extent...all the other nutritional factors)

one thing the health people making a fortune off probiotics (which are almost free to make) neglect to mention is that people have died from fermented food infections many times, even the so called safe ones, even basic kombucha has killed someone...and their rationale is that "well if you have a compromised immune system they can leak into your blood from your gut and cause an infection) and so im thinking...theyre just like any other microorganism looking for a host to feed on, they just dont cause acute poisoning like the more aggressive types

in Ayurveda they recommend people who are serious about their health or want a certain clarity of mind (which is related to gut, bowel) for doing meditation and other body excersizes don't eat fermented food. They are said to sour the mood and promote lethargy...kind of a broad generalization and im sure im simplifying, but I generally trust their advice when it comes to things like this...but of course it must correlate with experience...and it does in this case for me
 
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I think anything with a certain antibiotic action will tend to leave more gram-negatives behind. This also goes for carrots and coconut oil, there are threads in this forum about those.
 

Suikerbuik

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Such_Saturation said:
So what is it exactly about a product you know nothing about that is better than simple random repopulation?

The fact that some individuals have a latent dysbiosis, that makes them prone to infection and disturbs “simple” repopulation. Each antibiotic affects the microbiome (and the host) differently too. So I don’t think repopulation is simple and something straight. So in some cases interfering with proven substances can enhance health and/or limit negative outcomes. Problem is there are yet no "proven" substances.
 

pboy

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its hilarious...I used to work at this place that sold fresh juice and 'health' stuff and all that, trendy and what not. The people I worked with..id observe what theyd talk about and eat (I felt bad for them). One day the probiotic thing came up and I was like...no thank you...im all good. I was like..i don't even know if I have bacteria in my gut or not...and I don't care to be honest, but im not gonna eat bacteria on purpose...that's like, why we have clean environments and cook food. And their eyes got all big and were like "NO, YOU DO HAVE THEM!!!" and "YYOU NEED TO EAT THEM TO BE HEALTHY"...and I was just thinking to myself, the proof is in the pudding...these people weren't exactly outgoing and exemplary health...not bad, but yea. Its just one of those marketing things that has become a meme mental virus inflicting auto immune fear and influencing peoples decisions for the sake of someone else (the seller)
 
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narouz

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@ Mittir
"I do not see any disconnect there. RP only recommends selected antibiotics...
His comment on sterile gut is purely theoretical.
Yogurt only supplies few strains of bacteria. I remember reading
people have several hundreds to thousands type of bacteria in gut...."


By "disconnect/gap" I mean that
in Peat's suggestions (or at least implications)
there seems to me to be specific information missing.

Here are the separate pieces of information I believe Peat suggests or agrees with:
1. Sterile guts are ideal, but unworkable in the real world.
2. Sometimes taking a safe pharma antibiotic to correct bad gut bacteria levels makes sense
(Peat seems to do this himself)
3. Our guts have evolved so that generally "favorable" bacteria keeps dangerous bacteria at bay.
4. Probiotics are silly/a scam.

Now...if all those pieces are true,
then a natural progression of thought, to me,
would seem to be:

"Okay, I take (say) minocycline because I had overpopulated gut bacteria
which the regular Peat methods seems not to be controlling.
I finish the minocycline...now what?
Peat says sterile gut is not workable in real world...
Peat says healthy human guts in real world exist with balance of bacteria, good and bad.
Okay...so this seems to be adding up to repopulating with favorable bacteria.
But...Peat says probiotics/yogurt are bad/scam..."

There would seem to me to be specific direction missing
in the event someone takes antibiotics.

I'm not criticizing Peat here.
It's not his job to give me directions. :lol:
I'm just saying,
when trying to add up the different pieces of his thinking,
there are gaps I wish to fill in.


@Mittir
"His main concern is lactic acid in fermented products, in large amount
lactic acid burdens the liver. He also mentioned lactic acid sends
stress signals. That is the main problem of fermented products."

Yes.
On the other hand he has said it's okay to consume
like a spoonful per day or so.
Might be worth it to encourage the correct bacteria...?


@ Suikerbuik
"You'd think it makes sense to help reestablish the gut after antibiotics...."
Yep.
Therein lies the gap. :lol:
It would make sense,
in parsing Peat's different statements about gut/endotoxin/antibiotics.
But he doesn't specifically address the situation of post-antibiotic maneuvers.


@ Suikerbuik
"...However those bacteria found in probiotics usually do not repopulate your gut...."
Hmmm....
I don't see why not... :roll:


@ Suikerbuik
"They only help to form a new balance. Lactid acid bacteria inhibit some pathogens, affect the immune reponse and some strains have shown to lower intestinal permeability...."
This would seem to constitute repopulation, to me.
And to achieve the desired goal (from Peat's perspective).


@ Such_Saturation
"So what is it exactly about a product you know nothing about that is better than simple random repopulation?"
If I'm catching your drift here, SS,
this would be my thinking.
After someone takes pharma antibiotics, if repopulation is desirable,
then one would think controlling as best possible the nature of the repopulation
would also be desirable.


@ pboy
"...antibiotics attack your gut lining and other cells just like any toxin, so its foolish to use them unless you have a serious infection. Probiotics can lead to infection and even if you deal with them they don't confer a benefit, its just...they can be non toxic or toxic, never beneficial...."
Well...I would think Peat diverges from you here,
as he himself seems to use antibiotics once in a while
for the specific purpose of gut bacteria control.
And Peat has said, in an interview,
that lactobacillus acidophilus, for example, is generally favorable.
He's also said that, practically speaking,
a healthy gut is a gut with a balance of bacteria--
some bacteria helps to keep harmful bacteria out.


@ Such_Saturation
"I think anything with a certain antibiotic action will tend to leave more gram-negatives behind. This also goes for carrots and coconut oil, there are threads in this forum about those."
And that, to me SS, is why it is a question worth wasting y'all's time with. :lol:
A gut fresh from pharma antibiotics
would seem to me to be gut vulnerable to seriously bad bacteria....
 
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I feel like he does it to keep them out of the SMALL intestine. Now unless you are willing to do rounds of killing and drinking then I'm not sure how you could get hold of a product you "know something about" and I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism. I had a question like that for Ray Peat but it did not get voted.
 
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narouz

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I guess there's one answer to the situation
which some have sortuv come close to proposing:
the notion that the gut after antibiotics
will repopulate willy nilly and healthily.
:roll:
 

pboy

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this might just be one area that isn't well defined or studied yet...probably so, or im sure Peat would be up to date with all the research and give a definite answer. I have a feeling he thinks bacteria will enter whether we try to do it on purpose or not...and specific foods breed less harmful versions than other...I think he has said the milk eating bacterias are relatively harmless. I have read many studies that say the yogurt and milk probiotics stay in the body only as long as you eat them and tend to slowly get expelled out within a week or two after stopping the consumption...sorry I haven't bookmarked any of those but I just googled if I remember.
Antibiotics occasionally seem like a decent approach (probably hence the carrot). When I say antibiotics are harsh on your gut/liver also hence it not wise to consume a lot...its because most of them are bitter/astringent compounds that taste offensive, like a poison. And it makes sense that something that kills life attempts to kill any life, its just the bigger the organism the less its effected (like how caffeine kills insects and even small dogs). If you got sick or an infection, that would be prime time to take an antibiotic, but...I dunno, I haven't needed any in many years now...so I think once youre healthy and in a pretty good rythmn we simply don't get sick in that way (most are probably food borne that people get, im thinking). You could try some probiotics, but as others have said...there are supposedly thousands of different strains that populate our large intestine whether put there intentionally or not...as in, even if you didn't take probiotics, youd get repopulated just by nature of living pretty fast. If you do take them I guess just note your elimination pattern and as long as it stays normal its probably ok. The final judge often times (and in a way the truest judge) is how the thing is eliminated the next day
 
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I think fats that inhibit adhesion are the only really safe route. If you can identify a strain that doesn't make endotoxin, histamine, lactate you might be set but if it's not in you in the first place it means it's either an obscure species from across the world or your diet simply does not keep it alive for any measure of time.
 

pboy

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yea good point, saturated fat when it combines with calcium or magnesium basically forms a small bar of soap in your intestine...antimicrobial and desticks unwanted anything...a real nice benefit
 

jyb

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pboy said:
yea good point, saturated fat when it combines with calcium or magnesium basically forms a small bar of soap in your intestine...antimicrobial and desticks unwanted anything...a real nice benefit

So, milk?
 

Suikerbuik

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I'm not sure how you could do it without reductionism.
Everything we think they know about the human body, including all Peat's work, is in the sense of reductionism ;). Does that mean it's not useful? No.. fortunately not.

Let's favor our own antibiotic producing species. I am sure they must be there :D.
 

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