Omnivore dilemas

I don't have a dilema about being an omnivore - I am one and intend to continue at least for now. But I've got a couple of dilemas about eating meat.

I've been cooking oxtail and other bony gelatinous soups, and eating the associated meat in stews. But I've got a couple of concerns about it.

1. What I like about oxtails is that they have heaps of gristle that gives lots of gelatine. What doesn't cook off, I chew off. But the oxtails I've been cooking lately give up yellowish liquid fat. Thicker than olive oil unless the olive oil has been in the fridge, but pourable liquid (even after it's been in the fridge). I assume this means a lot of the fat is unsaturated. I guess that's because the cattle are outside in the cold. Could be that some of their supplemental winter feed has more PUFA than they are designed for. So in late summer, early autumn, I'll be interested to see if it firms up. I got some other lamb/mutton bones the other day, and the contrast was stark - the fat on top of the stock was solid and white well before the stock had cooled to room temperature. But those bones don't give me as much gelatin. I got a knee bone (knuckle?) the other week, and it made a fabulously thick stock, but also had liquid fat. I scoop off the fat from the stock (which is tricky when its liquid), so that's OK. But I want to eat the meat too, and it still has quite a bit of fat in it.
So, do you think I'm right that the tail and knee fat is high PUFA?
Has anyone else noticed this effect?
What would you do - keep eating the high gelatine extremities, or go with the low gelatine more saturated fat bones from the torso?

2. As above, I've been cooking soups and stews from well-boiled meaty gelatinous ruminant joints, because i want the more balanced protein that goes with the gristly bits. I also like the taste and find it an easy and tasty way to eat well cooked veges, too. But that means cooking for a while, and usually having the stock and meat waiting around for at least 2-3 days before it's all eaten. Which would probably mean more biogenic amines as a result of the meat breaking down, and those biogenic amines having undesirable effects in my metabolism, right? I'm especially concerned about them messing with my head - migraines.
What do you think? Ids this likely to be a problem? Would I be better off just going with quick fried steak and lamb chops, and following it up with OJ jelly for amino acid balance, for the benefit of less biogenic amines at the cost of less gelatine/glycine etc?
I guess I might just decide that since both ways have pros and cons, I might as well go for variety and taste - I like them all.
Or I could try a month being more rigorous about eating fresher shorter cooked meat, and see if I can notice a difference - but I'm not so keen on that plan.

I think variety is always nice. Whenever I have muscle meat I balance it with gelatin (great lakes from the green can). I've also used 5 grams of BCAA ( thanks haidut) or glycine powder when I've been out of gelatin. I've also been having some eggshell calcium to balance the phosphorus in meat, seafood and eggs (thanks Mittir). I definitely notice increased post meal warmth when I do these things. I would stick with a low vitamin C fruit or juice with red meat due to the iron absorption being increased in the presence of vitamin C.
The oxtails I've been getting have the same type of fat you describe. I wonder if it has something to do with the tail being away from the warmth of the body cavity and possibly favoring unsaturated fat for flexibility? The knee joint would probably be similar. Summer just ended where I live so the animals were eating only grass for several months. I usually chill the broth in the refrigerator over night and skim off the fat. I suppose you could divide your broth into small batches and freeze it in mason jars for later use to avoid the biogenic amine build up. I usually do this but one week I didn't and after about 3-4 days I started getting the old histamine rash. It's not super convenient but it's worth it to me to take the extra time to divide the broth and freeze it. To thaw it I put the mason jar in a pot of hot water.

Blossom said:

I think variety is always nice. Whenever I have muscle meat I balance it with gelatin (great lakes from the green can). I've also used 5 grams of BCAA ( thanks haidut) or glycine powder when I've been out of gelatin. I've also been having some eggshell calcium to balance the phosphorus in meat, seafood and eggs (thanks Mittir). I definitely notice increased post meal warmth when I do these things. I would stick with a low vitamin C fruit or juice with red meat due to the iron absorption being increased in the presence of vitamin C.

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I've got BCAA, glycine and taurine, which I use from time to time too, especially if I haven't been eating so much gelatine. And I supplement oystershell everyday to balance phosphorus. I should take at least some oystershell and glycine to work with me, since I eat meat for lunch, but just haven't got round to the logistics. I've already got a stack of jars on my desk I guess you are right about avoiding OJ straight after meat, it's just tasty like that.

Blossom said:

The oxtails I've been getting have the same type of fat you describe. I wonder if it has something to do with the tail being away from the warmth of the body cavity and possibly favoring unsaturated fat for flexibility? The knee joint would probably be similar. Summer just ended where I live so the animals were eating only grass for several months.

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That's what I was thinking, too. I guess summer isn't warm enough to make much difference, then, if yours are the same after summer. Do you eat the solid meat, or just the broth?

Blossom said:

I usually chill the broth in the refrigerator over night and skim off the fat. I suppose you could divide your broth into small batches and freeze it in mason jars for later use to avoid the biogenic amine build up. I usually do this but one week I didn't and after about 3-4 days I started getting the old histamine rash. It's not super convenient but it's worth it to me to take the extra time to divide the broth and freeze it. To thaw it I put the mason jar in a pot of hot water.

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Like you, I cool it in the fridge and then remove fat. What are mason jars made of? I wouldn't trust gregular glass jars to withstand the freezer (or the bashing they'd get as I rummage in there.) I do have some glass containers that I use to freeze some of the broth and stew. But by the time I've thawed the meat, boiled it, cooled it, and frozen it, it's usually ~24 hrs. And then I usually keep some out for the next 2 days - I guess I could drop this part. If I've understood it right, long boiling speeds the breakdown to biogenic amines.

Chops can be out of the freezer and onto the kid's plates in less than half an hour sometimes, though sometimes I thaw more slowly. But then I usually take some to work for the following day's lunch.

I've never had a problem with the mason jars cracking. They are made of glass and are specifically designed for canning purposes. You could probably do a search of canning jars to see what's available in your area. I eat a little bit of the meat because it's delicious but it's a favorite treat for my dogs so they get a hearty portion. Keeping my dogs happy and healthy is great for my well-being!
Apple juice is lovely with meat.

Lucky dogs.
All the apple juice I have found has added vit-C.

tara said:

Lucky dogs.
All the apple juice I have found has added vit-C.

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That's a bummer. Some labels list vitamin C as added as a preservative for freshness but under the daily value it will list 0% so I wonder if in those cases it is too minimal to matter? I've primary seen this in some applesauces. I suppose that would be a good topic for me to look into.

Blossom said:

tara said:

Lucky dogs.
All the apple juice I have found has added vit-C.

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That's a bummer. Some labels list vitamin C as added as a preservative for freshness but under the daily value it will list 0% so I wonder if in those cases it is too minimal to matter? I've primary seen this in some applesauces. I suppose that would be a good topic for me to look into.

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The amount is listed - I can't remember what it is, but > 0.

Interesting questions, tara. As I understand it, most of the biogenic amines in meat develop over the 2-3 weeks of dry aging, which seems to be an almost universal practice in the US. There is a thread about it here.

The article Isadora cites says the enzyme which turns histidine into histamine is destroyed by cooking, which is consistent with pasteurization destroying enzymes in milk, etc. So, Blossom, it's possible something else is going on?

BingDing said:

Interesting questions, tara. As I understand it, most of the biogenic amines in meat develop over the 2-3 weeks of dry aging, which seems to be an almost universal practice in the US. There is a thread about it here.

The article Isadora cites says the enzyme which turns histidine into histamine is destroyed by cooking, which is consistent with pasteurization destroying enzymes in milk, etc. So, Blossom, it's possible something else is going on?

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Possibly. I thought the histamine and such could build back up after cooking and storing the food in the refrigerator for several days. I could be wrong on that though.
I'm wondering if the food labels listing vitamin c as an ingredient and then claiming 0% daily value might be similar to how trans fats are labeled. As far as I can tell if an item has less than 5% or a negligible amount the label can by law (at least here in the U.S.) will read 0% for the daily value.

Blossom said:

BingDing said:

Interesting questions, tara. As I understand it, most of the biogenic amines in meat develop over the 2-3 weeks of dry aging, which seems to be an almost universal practice in the US. There is a thread about it here.

The article Isadora cites says the enzyme which turns histidine into histamine is destroyed by cooking, which is consistent with pasteurization destroying enzymes in milk, etc. So, Blossom, it's possible something else is going on?

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Possibly. I thought the histamine and such could build back up after cooking and storing the food in the refrigerator for several days. I could be wrong on that though.
I'm wondering if the food labels listing vitamin c as an ingredient and then claiming 0% daily value might be similar to how trans fats are labeled. As far as I can tell if an item has less than 5% or a negligible amount the label can by law (at least here in the U.S.) will read 0% for the daily value.

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I hadn't heard that histamine is destroyed by cooking at all, just that that enzyme is destroyed. I wonder if it is different for all the other amino acids/amines?

@ BingDing: Thanks for reminding me of this thread - I read it ages ago. There's some confusion in there about endotoxin (LPS), which as I understand it is quite distinct from the biogenic amines (though maybe there are bacteria that contribute to both).
I have read in Peat's meat article that biogenic amines develop during aging, but I had thought that it continued, possibly even faster, during and after cooking?
Guess I'll have to discuss with a friendly butcher, and see if I can find out what normal practice is here.

I used to have problems with aged cheeses, fermented foods, wine and left over meat, fish or broth when my health was very poor but luckily these days I'm a lot more tolerant. I thought it had to do with certain amines but I'm sure much of it was related to my depleted state. I haven't read up on the topic in a while so I've just been trying to keep things as fresh as possible to avoid any unnecessary strain on my system. I can tolerate aged cheeses and small amounts of yogurt fine now but those are the only aged/fermented food I've experimented with so far. I could see where it could be a problem in someone predisposed to migraines.

You have it right, tara, histamine and the other amines are not destroyed by cooking, that's why the dry aging is so problematic. But the amino acids don't convert into amines without an enzyme to drive it, so after cooking no additional amines will form, at least not from bacterial enzymes.

That thread definitely has some confusion in it. LPS is a component of bacterial cell walls, is different from bacterial enzymes.

Good luck with the local butchers. There are links on pages 3 and 4 to mail order farms with fresh beef. I drove 5 hours each way to visit the one in Georgia. The lack of water in the ground beef was noticeable. I'm not sure if it was worth it, but Ray ends his article with

Because the polyamines intensity the neurotoxic and carcinogenic effects of estrogen and of polyunsaturated fats, those three types of substance should be considered as a functional unit in making food choices. (Grass-fed organic beef fresh from a local farm would be a reasonable choice.) Unfortunately, the meat industry has maximized all of those dangers, just for the increased weight of their product.

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BingDing said:

You have it right, tara, histamine and the other amines are not destroyed by cooking, that's why the dry aging is so problematic. But the amino acids don't convert into amines without an enzyme to drive it, so after cooking no additional amines will form, at least not from bacterial enzymes.

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Do you know that all the relevant enzymes are destroyed by boiling, or just the one that splits histidine to histamine?
I guess sterile storage would help, but normal hygeine doesn't completely preclude recolonisation after cooking.

BingDing said:

Good luck with the local butchers. There are links on pages 3 and 4 to mail order farms with fresh beef. I drove 5 hours each way to visit the one in Georgia. The lack of water in the ground beef was noticeable. ...

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I'm not in the US. I've noticed a couple of local butchers that don't have water leaking out of all their meat; some others usually sell soggy (but cheaper) meat. I don't know what is standard practice age-wise with meat here - but I'll at least make one or two enquiries and see what I find out.

That quote is a good one to bear in mind.

I've cooked like this for ages but recently made some changes because I'm noticing the stale taste of slow cooked stews and stocks. I'm now cooking stocks quicker but I do soak in water and acid overnight in the fridge as I read that's a big part of getting out the gelatin. But I have noticed the same thing with the fat so I make fewer.
With chicken I have a way to do it all in one. I cut up the chicken and marinade for the day in the fridge in either Portuguese style - lots of tomato puree, lemon juice, garlic, cayenne pepper - or sticky chicken marinade - but the important thing is including the carcass and skin. Then bake. This way I get the gelatin in the sauce from the bones. The sauce gels in the fridge, so the gelatin is there. The other recipe is sticky chicken - i use honey lemon juice soy sauce (i double checked - peat says the fermentation gets rid of the estrogen) fish sauce. Both are simple and delicious and don't sit around too long at any stage of the process, never taste stale.

sueq said:

I've cooked like this for ages but recently made some changes because I'm noticing the stale taste of slow cooked stews and stocks. I'm now cooking stocks quicker but I do soak in water and acid overnight in the fridge as I read that's a big part of getting out the gelatin. But I have noticed the same thing with the fat so I make fewer.
With chicken I have a way to do it all in one. I cut up the chicken and marinade for the day in the fridge in either Portuguese style - lots of tomato puree, lemon juice, garlic, cayenne pepper - or sticky chicken marinade - but the important thing is including the carcass and skin. Then bake. This way I get the gelatin in the sauce from the bones. The sauce gels in the fridge, so the gelatin is there. The other recipe is sticky chicken - i use honey lemon juice soy sauce (i double checked - peat says the fermentation gets rid of the estrogen) fish sauce. Both are simple and delicious and don't sit around too long at any stage of the process, never taste stale.

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That sounds absolutely fabulous sueq! If you get a chance sometime maybe you could post a recipe

Sure!