Ray Peat and Turnips

narouz · Nov 10, 2014

You know, in the "20 Q's for Dr. Peat" thread,
Peat, when asked about his diet,
answered that, amongst many other things,
he had eaten "small turnips."

This was interesting to me because
in several years of following Peat
and rather slavishly listening to his interviews
and reading his stuff,
this is the first time I remember him answering a personal question about the specifics of his diet
and noting a starchy vegetable.

I mean, I've heard him remark about the deliciousness of tortillas.
But the "small turnips" mention is the first I recall of him specifically listing
as something he himself had eaten recently
a starchy vegetable.

For all his general association with potatoes,
I don't recall him ever saying that he had eaten potatoes that day or whatever.
He gets asked these "pop" questions every so often because people are understandably curious.

Not talking about the scholarly generalizations or specifications in his writings.
Talking specifically how he replies when asked a direct and personal question to the effect:
"What did you eat today?"

I mention this, of course, because I think it is telling--
about how he sees the place of starches in diet.

(I know one can point to something generally thought of as a fruit
that he may've mentioned eating.
Not sure.
What I'm talking about is what are thought of as the "Safe Peat Starches"
like potatoes, rice, masa, root vegetables, etc.
Interesting to me how seldom he seems to eat them.)

tara · Nov 10, 2014

Is a small turnip starchy? I thought they were more sweet?

Slappy Hands · Nov 11, 2014

tara said:
Is a small turnip starchy? I thought they were more sweet?

They aren't starchy. They also have antimicrobial fiber like carrots, though I doubt that counts after they're cooked. I do remember reading about them being a goitrogen, though I don't think it was Peat.

pboy · Nov 11, 2014

theyre a starchy brassica root. They have an exceptional nutritional profile and positive calcium...however, being that they are a brassica, they have mild bitter taste due to goitrogens and brassic acid isn't good either, tho its in minuscule amounts. They are really high in fiber also. Theyre best used as just a small part of a meal, like youd do steamed carrots, and probably not every day. I haven't eaten them in a while but they do have a good nutritional profile...just some questionable anti factors

aquaman · Nov 11, 2014

Don't know - i'd be surprised if he doesn't eat some roots. I know Josh rubin has consulted with him a lot and is adamant that he recommends Roots and Fruits.

In a separate interview recently he mentions boiling turnip greens specifically for their calcium content. This is a side point, but interesting to note that he says these are the best vegetable source of calcium.

Zachs · Nov 11, 2014

There is not a healthy culture in the world that does not consume some sort of starch. I think small (or even large) amounts of roots, shoots and tubers in the right context can be very beneficial. They seem to cause the most problems when combined with other foods, slowing their digestion and making them more prone to fermentation. A lot of times i will eat a big meal of mostly sweet potatoes, thoroughly cooked with some salt, CO and maple syrup. This combo acts like a meal of bananas or rice and digests extremely fast with no digestive issues.

Anyway, roots and tubers seem much safer than hardier and leafy veggies and even northern climate fruits.

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

aquaman said:
Don't know - i'd be surprised if he doesn't eat some roots. I know Josh rubin has consulted with him a lot and is adamant that he recommends Roots and Fruits.

In a separate interview recently he mentions boiling turnip greens specifically for their calcium content. This is a side point, but interesting to note that he says these are the best vegetable source of calcium.

Yes, aquaman.
Sortuv my point.
I've always wondered if he eats more than he seems to report.
But as I say,
this is the first time I've seen/heard him respond to the direct, personal type question:
"What did you eat today?"
by listing a starchy vegetable.

Now...maybe he doesn't accurately represent.
Or maybe these questions happen to come coincidentally just on a day he hasn't eaten any....

pboy · Nov 11, 2014

if hes anything like me, I prefer optimum and am fine with doing the same thing day after day, but sometimes a grocery store might be out of something, or if hes travelling or in certain time binding situations he might go to the next best option. I bet he chose turnip cause of the high calcium and lack of beta carotene. Sometimes one thing with fiber, like a root veg at night or the evening can help with GI regularity...like it will clean out everything from earlier that day. Perhaps a 1-2 punch of calories calcium and fiber, without having to use carrot

it is interesting, I noted that too narouz that he never seems to explicitly recommend starches other than as a backup plan of sorts, but in real practice I found it difficult to believe he'd never eat them...even maybe once a week

Such_Saturation · Nov 11, 2014

Ray Peat seems to go with what is available locally. You don't see him telling people to eat all those South American fruits either, but they are his reality in Mexico with good probability. In the advice there is a certain tendency to look at the positive side of things which makes it strong. As for potatoes, I have never heard him putting them before dairy, which he has available.

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

Zachs said:
There is not a healthy culture in the world that does not consume some sort of starch. I think small (or even large) amounts of roots, shoots and tubers in the right context can be very beneficial. They seem to cause the most problems when combined with other foods, slowing their digestion and making them more prone to fermentation. A lot of times i will eat a big meal of mostly sweet potatoes, thoroughly cooked with some salt, CO and maple syrup. This combo acts like a meal of bananas or rice and digests extremely fast with no digestive issues.

Anyway, roots and tubers seem much safer than hardier and leafy veggies and even northern climate fruits.

Well, Zachs, I don't wanna argue with you.
Will just point out, simply, that I believe those views do differ from Peat's views on starches.
Furthermore, I would allow that you may be right on the issue,
and Peat may be wrong.
I'm just trying to clarify and accurately represent what Peat has said about starches.

Ray Peat in
Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml

"The starch-based diet, emphasizing grains, beans, nuts, and vegetables, has been promoted with a variety of justifications. When people are urged to reduce their fat and sugar consumption, they are told to eat more starch. Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins. It is often associated with allergens, and according to Gerhard Volkheimer, whole starch grains can be "persorbed" from the intestine directly into the blood stream where they may block arterioles, causing widely distributed nests of cell-death. I have heard dietitians urge the use of "complex carbohydrates" (starch) instead of sugar. In the first physiology lab I took, we fed rats a large blob of moist cornstarch with a stomach tube, and then after waiting a few minutes, were told to dissect the rat to find out "how far the starch had gone." In such a short time, we were surprised to find that not a trace of the starch could be found. The professor's purpose was to impress us with the rapidity with which starch is digested and absorbed. Various studies have demonstrated that starch (composed of pure glucose) raises blood glucose more quickly than sucrose (half fructose, half glucose) does. The sudden increase of blood glucose is sometimes thought to contribute to the development of diabetes, but if it does, it is probably mediated by fat metabolism and the hormones other than just insulin."

In this particular thread
I was just commenting upon Peat's responses to direct, personal questions
about his diet
over the years.
As I say, over the years, the "small turnips" mention
was the first I'd heard him make about eating a so-called, supposed "Peat-Safe Starch."
This does fit in with his expressed scholarly writings,
which are much more negative toward starches
than is generally reflected on the forum,
in my opinion.

Such_Saturation · Nov 11, 2014

narouz said:
In this particular thread
I was just commenting upon Peat's responses to direct, personal questions
about his diet
over the years.
As I say, over the years, the "small turnips" mention
was the first I'd heard him make about eating a so-called, supposed "Peat-Safe Starch."
This does fit in with his expressed scholarly writings,
which are much more negative toward starches
than is generally reflected on the forum,
in my opinion.

But, turnips are 4% carbohydrates. Hardly bread or pasta.

pboy · Nov 11, 2014

yea I didn't realize, turnip...even the root is more like a carrot...mostly sugar, with just a little starch

Zachs · Nov 11, 2014

Yea, my personal opinion only. I dont necessarily disagree with his view, just how i respond to foods. Sweet starchs for sure, work well for me, sweet pots, yams, squash, pumpkin. Potatoes on the other hand, a nightshade, cause me GI upset and tend to cause more hypoglycemia reactions. Since i dont like to drown food in fat to eat it, i avoid it.

Anyway, its interesting. And its probably why Ray Peat is not into giving specific dietary advice based off of his own diet, instead giving out scientific information on what he currently believes and lets us connect the dots.

I wonder what he thinks of us Peatarians and our fascination with his daily habits. Haha.

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
narouz said:

In this particular thread
I was just commenting upon Peat's responses to direct, personal questions
about his diet
over the years.
As I say, over the years, the "small turnips" mention
was the first I'd heard him make about eating a so-called, supposed "Peat-Safe Starch."
This does fit in with his expressed scholarly writings,
which are much more negative toward starches
than is generally reflected on the forum,
in my opinion.

Click to expand...

But, turnips are 4% carbohydrates. Hardly bread or pasta.

That is surprising!
Still, my point is simply that they are typically grouped amongst
the starchy root vegetables often deemed "Peat-Safe."

pboy · Nov 11, 2014

yes this is interesting narouz...I assumed they were starchy also, but perhaps that's why Peat leans more towards them, theyre mostly sugar! They actually seem like a pretty viable food, minus the high fiber (tho its probably not a super fermentable type, probably mostly cellulose) and the fact its a brassica meaning it might have small amounts of goitrogen. The greens are just a basic green but have a very high calcium, and lower than normal phosphorus so I guess they could have their place in a broth or something
even one cup of raw turnip greens has 10% calcium and only 2% phosphorus, 18 calories worth. The iron or endotoxin potential might be there if you ate a lot...but im surprised they are a really positive green, as far as leaves go

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2703/2

tho I guess they are kind of high in beta carotene, but not more than any other green

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

pboy said:
yes this is interesting narouz...I assumed they were starchy also, but perhaps that's why Peat leans more towards them, theyre mostly sugar! They actually seem like a pretty viable food, minus the high fiber (tho its probably not a super fermentable type, probably mostly cellulose) and the fact its a brassica meaning it might have small amounts of goitrogen. The greens are just a basic green but have a very high calcium, and lower than normal phosphorus so I guess they could have their place in a broth or something
even one cup of raw turnip greens has 10% calcium and only 2% phosphorus, 18 calories worth. The iron or endotoxin potential might be there if you ate a lot...but im surprised they are a really positive green, as far as leaves go

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/veg ... cts/2703/2

tho I guess they are kind of high in beta carotene, but not more than any other green

1. If Such's info is correct--4% carb--there wouldn't be much sugar, I wouldn't think.
2. I do vaguely recall Peat specifying turnip greens, I think, when talking about good ways to get calcium
if one doesn't eat dairy. In that instance he meant to cook the greens, keep and drink the broth, and throw out the greens.
3. Back to the sugar content: superficial thinking I know, but turnips seem similar to beets in some ways,
and beets have a lot of sugar. But...turnips don't taste very sweet.
4. I wonder if the goiterogens are lessened or eliminated by cooking.
5. Turnips have a radish-y taste; I wonder if the brassica family is the radish family...?
6. Beta carotene...hmmm. I've been under the impression that all the high beta carotene foods
will be colorful--like orange or red or yellow....

Such_Saturation · Nov 11, 2014

Is your interest related to the fact that he does not usually advocate turnips, or the fact he does not usually eat them? I would place them in the same class as carrots (you could call anything a "starch" if you really wanted to) and he does also mention carrots. Of course in his case they will not be the dietary staple that this forum makes them out to be.

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
Is your interest related to the fact that he does not usually advocate turnips, or the fact he does not usually eat them? I would place them in the same class as carrots (you could call anything a "starch" if you really wanted to) and he does also mention carrots. Of course in his case they will not be the dietary staple that this forum makes them out to be.

I found it interesting because Peat himself
when posed the direct, personal question: "What did you eat today"
has never, that I recall, given an answer that included any kind of starchy vegetable.
So...the "small turnips" mention is the first time I recall.

Its seems like an anamoly to me and thus a little surprising.
The fact that it is anamolous underlined, in my mind,
the likelihood that Peat does indeed eat very little starch.
And this is consonant with his writings about starch which,
as I've said, tend to be pretty strongly negative.

For one reason or another (and there are a million and I've heard 'em all!)
we are not a very scientific lot here,
despite the fact that we think of ourselves as Peatians,
and Peat is very scientific.

One basic way we are not very scientific
is we refuse to define what a Peat diet is.
Many if not most say a Peat diet does not exist;
and yet most of us believe we eat one. :shock:

Personally, I see the lone mention of turnips as a kind of reverse confirmation
(if that makes any sense)
that Peat personally practices what he "preaches" about an optimal health/longevity diet:
that is: it would be a low-starch diet.

Just recently someone posted asking how many have abandoned the Peat diet.
Well...obviously...impossible to know,
given what I noted above.

If one is interested in correlating the consumption of a Peat diet over time with health,
well...again...impossible to evaluate scientifically.

This returns me to turnips and starches.
Most of us crave some starches or, at least, want some.
My guess is most of us eat some.
Actually, my best guess would be that most of us eat quite a lot. :lol:

And my guess would be that the consumption of considerable starch
might be the main way most are unable (or unwilling) to maintain an optimal Peat diet.
Not dissing or putting anyone down there--it's damn hard!

But...all this is indeed guess-work.
We don't like to say what a Peat diet is
or even admit that there is one. :lol:

Such_Saturation · Nov 11, 2014

Well, if Ray Peat's thinking is a shapeless continuum, concerned mainly with the maintenance of certain foundational conditions for a highly functioning organism in accord with its surroundings, you are expecting permanent condensation into dietary guidelines, which are discrete elements. Thus you may find limits and boundaries, but never will say (if you are honest with yourself and others) that those limits actually exist.

narouz · Nov 11, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
Well, if Ray Peat's thinking is a shapeless continuum, concerned mainly with the maintenance of certain foundational conditions for a highly functioning organism in accord with its surroundings, you are expecting permanent condensation into dietary guidelines, which are discrete elements. Thus you may find limits and boundaries, but never will say (if you are honest with yourself and others) that those limits actually exist.

Such-
For instance: in your opinion,
does Peat think an optimal longevity/health diet
should include a lot of starch?
Or very little starch?

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Ray Peat and Turnips

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