Licorice Root - A Key Supplement In Hypothyroidism?

sweetpeat said:

This is one of the few places in my readings so far that I've seen Peat mention supplementing cortisone. It's from the article "Blocking Tissue Destruction" http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/tissue-destruction.shtml

While hypothyroidism makes the body require more cortisone to sustain blood sugar and energy production, it also limits the ability to produce cortisone, so in some cases stress produces symptoms resulting from a deficiency of cortisone, including various forms of arthritis and more generalized types of chronic inflammation.


Often, a small physiological dose of natural hydrocortisone can help the patient meet the stress, without causing harmful side-effects. While treating the symptoms with cortisone for a short time, it is important to try to learn the basic cause of the problem, by checking for hypothyroidism, vitamin A deficiency, protein deficiency, a lack of sunlight, etc. (I suspect that light on the skin directly increases the skin's production of steroids, without depending on other organs. Different steroids probably involve different frequencies of light, but orange and red light seem to be important frequencies.) Using cortisone in this way, physiologically rather than pharmacologically, it is not likely to cause the serious problems mentioned above.


Stress-induced cortisone deficiency is thought to be a factor in a great variety of unpleasant conditions, from allergies to ulcerative colitis, and in many forms of arthritis. The stress which can cause a cortisone deficiency is even more likely to disturb formation of progesterone and thyroid hormone, so the fact that cortisone can relieve symptoms does not mean that it has corrected the problem.

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Very good, sweetpeat!
I wonder how kineticz thinks this jibes with his theory...?

sweetpeat said:

This is one of the few places in my readings so far that I've seen Peat mention supplementing cortisone. It's from the article "Blocking Tissue Destruction" http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/tissue-destruction.shtml

While hypothyroidism makes the body require more cortisone to sustain blood sugar and energy production, it also limits the ability to produce cortisone, so in some cases stress produces symptoms resulting from a deficiency of cortisone, including various forms of arthritis and more generalized types of chronic inflammation.


Often, a small physiological dose of natural hydrocortisone can help the patient meet the stress, without causing harmful side-effects. While treating the symptoms with cortisone for a short time, it is important to try to learn the basic cause of the problem, by checking for hypothyroidism, vitamin A deficiency, protein deficiency, a lack of sunlight, etc. (I suspect that light on the skin directly increases the skin's production of steroids, without depending on other organs. Different steroids probably involve different frequencies of light, but orange and red light seem to be important frequencies.) Using cortisone in this way, physiologically rather than pharmacologically, it is not likely to cause the serious problems mentioned above.


Stress-induced cortisone deficiency is thought to be a factor in a great variety of unpleasant conditions, from allergies to ulcerative colitis, and in many forms of arthritis. The stress which can cause a cortisone deficiency is even more likely to disturb formation of progesterone and thyroid hormone, so the fact that cortisone can relieve symptoms does not mean that it has corrected the problem.

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I've seen this before but as you point out, it's probably 5% of instances where he talks about cortisol that he actually praises the idea that a deficiency is not very nice. This is exactly my point and something that he needs to make clearer throughout his articles as it is so so important. I believe there are instances like this where estrogen is protective as it will reduce the likelihood of increased adrenaline during cortisol and thyroid deficiency. This is what I believe I am going through. Cortisol deficiency is a more advanced stage of hypothyroidism and serotonin excess. It can bring up high cortisol on bloods but in my view that is because serotonin and prolactin stimulate cortisol independently.

I am prone to allergies and inflammation, where most people enjoy the summer I suffer due to the pollen. My joints are also very stiff at the moment but the licorice is relaxing them greatly.

Proper cortisol supply should come from pregnenolone ----> progesterone via thyroid-stimulated adrenal enzymes.

In my view, Peat pushes ideas that are scientifically backed up, and even controversial, but he fails to create context in his studies, especially for more extreme cases of hypothyroidism and adrenal steroid depletion, where perhaps things like estrogen are the best of a bad lot (like politics).

narouz said:

Peat has said that some people with high estrogen
experience intense sexual appetite.
kin, I believe in another thread you said
boosting your estrogen a bit also boosted your sexual desire...?

The cortisol angles you discuss...
I can surely entertain notions about individual context,
but I don't think I've ever heard Peat talk about
a situation in which it is desirable to raise cortisol.
I'm not saying that that invalidates your theory, just noting the Peat angle.
I'm sure cortisol (and estrogen, prolactin, etc) do have their useful function, as you say.
Peat generally kinda poopoo's notions of "adrenal fatigue"
and doesn't seem ever to talk about strategies to raise cortisol
or to give cortisone supplements.
Again, this is not to say that your particular context couldn't benefit from that.

Long ago, before I discovered Peat,
and I think under the influence of that alternative thyroid guru--
can't ever remember how to spell his name,
but something like Kharazakian or somesuch
(he has a book on hypothyroidism)--
I took a supplement derived from licorish root.
It tasted great but I can't remember an effect one way or the other.

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Things licorice has helped:

- Deep sleep and not waking up with sinus swelling
- Sex drive and mood, also my balls feel more 'full'
- Joint pain
- Ability to confront challenges
- Exercise tolerance (before exercise would make me eyes bloodshot and me irritable)
- It's bringing back my social side and I'm less critical of body language

Jellyfish said:

Too much licorice can cause hypokalemia.

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This is interesting.

I just took some salt and I am the most clear headed I've been in a long while. This is in addition to increasing my licorice.

I had my blood pressure checked and it was low earlier today before salt.

kineticz you might want to try antidepressants A placebo-controlled study of sertraline's effect on cortisol response to the dexamethasone/corticotropin-releasing hormone test in healthy adults.

I've come across a few very positive accounts of licorice use but, from what I have seen, the accounts never last. The last one I remember was on 'Mind And Muscle', and the guy was basically singing from the rooftops on finding this magical herb. He said it was a revelation for his anhedonia, massively increased sex drive/performance, increased cognition, mood - the whole thing. It was basically the golden bullet that had been missing from his life. His account was so amazing, I ended it up trying it myself. However, it just made me very irritable, and I couldn't last the week on it. People were wondering what was up with me, and why I had become such an ***hole (although he told me this reaction was normal, and that I should 'wait it out'. I didn't though).

All I know, is that cortisol in excess is going to be very anxiolytic indeed, for some people. This will mean you are less fearless. High cortisol can also be very mood enhancing in certain individuals.

Such_Saturation said:

kineticz you might want to try antidepressants A placebo-controlled study of sertraline's effect on cortisol response to the dexamethasone/corticotropin-releasing hormone test in healthy adults.

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Why?

In my experience many herbs and plant based medicinals DO have an immediate effect on certain conditions, but this often because they can exacerbate a stress response. I think the quote "Nothing cures stress like a little more of it," is totally pertinent when talking about herbs like licorice root. I would be very cautious about using any kind of supplement that is not a vitamin or mineral or specifically recommended by Peat, because while you could be experiencing temporary relief from symptoms, you could be doing some serious long term damage to your organs.

Yea, I don't think herbs are a good long term solution. Plus, it would be more efficient to use progesteron/pregnenolone.

It is not more efficient to use pregnenolone, and definitely not progesterone, especially when estrogen is so low.

I have concluded it is far more intricate than adding pregnenolone. The whole reason I'm here is that I was adding pregnenolone daily for months. It gradually reduced my motivation, willpower, ambition. It should be everyone's goal to maximise their internal pregnenolone, and that in itself is a very long and windy path.

I am soon coming to an end with my adventure in hormone modulation. It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone. Salt is good, sugar is useful, but in itself does not boost metabolism, can still make you fat.

Where I disagree and haven't seen Peat mention is the benefit of E2 in mood. Some people are genetically geared and experienced in ways that aren't so pro-metabolic. Cortisol deficiency also makes adrenaline more of a problem. Cortisol excess downregulates ACTH, reducing LDL to preg conversion, but cortisol deficiency and adrenaline excess will choke mitochondrial respiration, also reducing pregnenolone if the increase in fatty acids are not used to generate energy. So it's a constant ping-pong between the two. Peat also says pregnenolone in excess is harmless, this is absolutely not true if the pregnenolone ingestion cannot gain entry to the mitochondria (i.e. in a heavily catabolic state, which many people are these days), and is dangerous.

Adrenal mitochondrial respiration (pregnenolone is just a product of this process, governed by many feedback loops, hence should not be taken without a vastly comprehensive, many years experience of your body, and contemplation of your position) is at the heart of most problems, not pregnenolone per se. Low E2 will increase adrenaline, and can increase prolactin and serotonin independently, due to the catabolic nature of poor adrenal respiration, and poor repair processes.

My advise, from my own personal experience, is do not take any adrenal hormones until you are in excellent cardiovascular, mental and dietary health. If you're not a regular attendant at the gym, for example, immediately you're not taking your health seriously enough, as this is the most effective place to boost mitochondrial respiration synergistically with all your body's systems. Sat on a computer desk does not show you are really that bothered. Take steps to breathe better at night, use sugar strategically, not like some here who seem to consume gallons of sugar a day.

It is the PROCESS, not the products, of energy and vitality that determine success in youthfulness. The products should rectify themselves during this process, and if they don't, start on VERY low doses <5mg. Just because you feel better with a hormone, it does not mean the body is managing it's synthesis well.

The process of energy respiration should take everyone years to even come close to mastering, and then hormone therapy should take years thereafter. Healing wellness is a lifelong journey, but it is not so difficult to overcome, and will not be solved by heaps of sugar.

So I ask you, sat at your computer discussing issues daily, whether you are using your time wisely enough to actually apply, experience, and evolve. I assume many of you are here to improve your health, rather than to post on threads. This not anything against the point of forums, but my honest instinct says what I have outlined above is about all there is to know in this area, and the steps that will go most of the way to solving these issues do not come from particularly intelligent methods.

kineticz said:

Such_Saturation said:

kineticz you might want to try antidepressants A placebo-controlled study of sertraline's effect on cortisol response to the dexamethasone/corticotropin-releasing hormone test in healthy adults.

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Why?

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It seems they can enhance the cortisol response.

kineticz said:

It is not more efficient to use pregnenolone, and definitely not progesterone, especially when estrogen is so low.

I have concluded it is far more intricate than adding pregnenolone. The whole reason I'm here is that I was adding pregnenolone daily for months. It gradually reduced my motivation, willpower, ambition. It should be everyone's goal to maximise their internal pregnenolone, and that in itself is a very long and windy path.

I am soon coming to an end with my adventure in hormone modulation. It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone. Salt is good, sugar is useful, but in itself does not boost metabolism, can still make you fat.

Where I disagree and haven't seen Peat mention is the benefit of E2 in mood. Some people are genetically geared and experienced in ways that aren't so pro-metabolic. Cortisol deficiency also makes adrenaline more of a problem. Cortisol excess downregulates ACTH, reducing LDL to preg conversion, but cortisol deficiency and adrenaline excess will choke mitochondrial respiration, also reducing pregnenolone if the increase in fatty acids are not used to generate energy. So it's a constant ping-pong between the two. Peat also says pregnenolone in excess is harmless, this is absolutely not true if the pregnenolone ingestion cannot gain entry to the mitochondria (i.e. in a heavily catabolic state, which many people are these days), and is dangerous.

Adrenal mitochondrial respiration (pregnenolone is just a product of this process, governed by many feedback loops, hence should not be taken without a vastly comprehensive, many years experience of your body, and contemplation of your position) is at the heart of most problems, not pregnenolone per se. Low E2 will increase adrenaline, and can increase prolactin and serotonin independently, due to the catabolic nature of poor adrenal respiration, and poor repair processes.

My advise, from my own personal experience, is do not take any adrenal hormones until you are in excellent cardiovascular, mental and dietary health. If you're not a regular attendant at the gym, for example, immediately you're not taking your health seriously enough, as this is the most effective place to boost mitochondrial respiration synergistically with all your body's systems. Sat on a computer desk does not show you are really that bothered. Take steps to breathe better at night, use sugar strategically, not like some here who seem to consume gallons of sugar a day.

It is the PROCESS, not the products, of energy and vitality that determine success in youthfulness. The products should rectify themselves during this process, and if they don't, start on VERY low doses <5mg. Just because you feel better with a hormone, it does not mean the body is managing it's synthesis well.

The process of energy respiration should take everyone years to even come close to mastering, and then hormone therapy should take years thereafter. Healing wellness is a lifelong journey, but it is not so difficult to overcome, and will not be solved by heaps of sugar.

So I ask you, sat at your computer discussing issues daily, whether you are using your time wisely enough to actually apply, experience, and evolve. I assume many of you are here to improve your health, rather than to post on threads. This not anything against the point of forums, but my honest instinct says what I have outlined above is about all there is to know in this area, and the steps that will go most of the way to solving these issues do not come from particularly intelligent methods.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you've really explored and experienced. This is real knowledge. Reading is not knowing - experiencing is... and I think what you've done is the slightly more extreme version of what many others should be doing who are interested in optimizing health. The ultimate individualization is going by experience. Ray Peats dietary heuristics take more time to individualize than others - which turns people off - so I need to think more about how your message an experience can be promoted in this community.

oxidation_is_normal said:

kineticz said:

It is not more efficient to use pregnenolone, and definitely not progesterone, especially when estrogen is so low.

I have concluded it is far more intricate than adding pregnenolone. The whole reason I'm here is that I was adding pregnenolone daily for months. It gradually reduced my motivation, willpower, ambition. It should be everyone's goal to maximise their internal pregnenolone, and that in itself is a very long and windy path.

I am soon coming to an end with my adventure in hormone modulation. It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone. Salt is good, sugar is useful, but in itself does not boost metabolism, can still make you fat.

Where I disagree and haven't seen Peat mention is the benefit of E2 in mood. Some people are genetically geared and experienced in ways that aren't so pro-metabolic. Cortisol deficiency also makes adrenaline more of a problem. Cortisol excess downregulates ACTH, reducing LDL to preg conversion, but cortisol deficiency and adrenaline excess will choke mitochondrial respiration, also reducing pregnenolone if the increase in fatty acids are not used to generate energy. So it's a constant ping-pong between the two. Peat also says pregnenolone in excess is harmless, this is absolutely not true if the pregnenolone ingestion cannot gain entry to the mitochondria (i.e. in a heavily catabolic state, which many people are these days), and is dangerous.

Adrenal mitochondrial respiration (pregnenolone is just a product of this process, governed by many feedback loops, hence should not be taken without a vastly comprehensive, many years experience of your body, and contemplation of your position) is at the heart of most problems, not pregnenolone per se. Low E2 will increase adrenaline, and can increase prolactin and serotonin independently, due to the catabolic nature of poor adrenal respiration, and poor repair processes.

My advise, from my own personal experience, is do not take any adrenal hormones until you are in excellent cardiovascular, mental and dietary health. If you're not a regular attendant at the gym, for example, immediately you're not taking your health seriously enough, as this is the most effective place to boost mitochondrial respiration synergistically with all your body's systems. Sat on a computer desk does not show you are really that bothered. Take steps to breathe better at night, use sugar strategically, not like some here who seem to consume gallons of sugar a day.

It is the PROCESS, not the products, of energy and vitality that determine success in youthfulness. The products should rectify themselves during this process, and if they don't, start on VERY low doses <5mg. Just because you feel better with a hormone, it does not mean the body is managing it's synthesis well.

The process of energy respiration should take everyone years to even come close to mastering, and then hormone therapy should take years thereafter. Healing wellness is a lifelong journey, but it is not so difficult to overcome, and will not be solved by heaps of sugar.

So I ask you, sat at your computer discussing issues daily, whether you are using your time wisely enough to actually apply, experience, and evolve. I assume many of you are here to improve your health, rather than to post on threads. This not anything against the point of forums, but my honest instinct says what I have outlined above is about all there is to know in this area, and the steps that will go most of the way to solving these issues do not come from particularly intelligent methods.

Click to expand...

It sounds like you've really explored and experienced. This is real knowledge. Reading is not knowing - experiencing is... and I think what you've done is the slightly more extreme version of what many others should be doing who are interested in optimizing health. The ultimate individualization is going by experience. Ray Peats dietary heuristics take more time to individualize than others - which turns people off - so I need to think more about how your message an experience can be promoted in this community.

Click to expand...

I like what both of you said.

I do believe that estrogen has a role to play in a healthy metabolism. I think Peat has said that role is brief - IIRC along the lines of get out and do the job, initiate growth, etc, then let the progesterone knock it down again. I can imagine that having no estrogen ()or no E2 specifically) could be problem, and I don't know how close to 0 it becomes a problem. It's just an unusual problem to have. In anorexia, I think estrogen, progestrerone and thyroid can all get to low levels in the blood, but I don't know what's happening with estrogen in the tissues during such time, since low blood levels can occur along with high tissue levels.

I have no idea where, but I think I've read/heard Peat say about the apparent (mental? mood?) benefits people feel from estrogen supplementation, that MAOIs would probably give similar effects more safely. I assumed he meant not that MAOIs are beneficial, just the lesser of evils.

tara said:

I do believe that estrogen has a role to play in a healthy metabolism. I think Peat has said that role is brief - IIRC along the lines of get out and do the job, initiate growth, etc, then let the progesterone knock it down again. I can imagine that having no estrogen ()or no E2 specifically) could be problem, and I don't know how close to 0 it becomes a problem. It's just an unusual problem to have. In anorexia, I think estrogen, progestrerone and thyroid can all get to low levels in the blood, but I don't know what's happening with estrogen in the tissues during such time, since low blood levels can occur along with high tissue levels.

I have no idea where, but I think I've read/heard Peat say about the apparent (mental? mood?) benefits people feel from estrogen supplementation, that MAOIs would probably give similar effects more safely. I assumed he meant not that MAOIs are beneficial, just the lesser of evils.

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Besides serotonin, this article is spot on with regards E2 and mood.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406718_2

My E2 was so low because I cocked up and took estrogen blockers while using pregnenolone and DHT blockers. I've made all the mistakes and have gone the hard way to be able to pass on advise. I do know for sure that attempts to lower E2 only sometimes boosted free T for about a day then I would have horrible mood, dry joints, dry skin, increased adrenaline. E2 seems to at least mitigate the causes and negative effects of your hypothyroidism.

When I took too much DHEA oral, I experienced opiod euphoria, increased motivation and spiritualism, bloods showed E2 high-normal at that time about three years ago. E2, as Peat knows, increases ACTH and therefore the LDL to pregenolone conversion specifically in the adrenals. A key differential at this time over any other period afterward was I was in excellent cardiovascular and respiratory health. This I believe allowed pregnenolone to exert it's euphoric effects so intensely through efficient entry into the mitochondria. I woke up the next morning and felt in complete euphoria, hair seemed to thicken and shine very quickly. This lasted about two weeks. This is why I believe a reliance on fatty acids BUT a fatty acid DEFICIENCY (so does not choke mitochondrial respiration) due to high mitochondrial respiration/high energy demands is stressful but effective if mastered, and is the best anyone can hope for when hypothyroid, as it maximises norephiprene and therefore the motivational dopamine pathways. This is the physical state I was in when I felt the euphoria.

Most leading a sedentary lifestyle in our heavily commercial and deskilled world fall into the trap of low mitochondrial respiration due to high fatty acid liberation with low energy demands, tied in with learned helplessness via financial, career, family difficulties.

Oral DHEA was actually the first supplement I took via luck as I was having huge stress issues. The transfer from fatty acid to glucose is full of pitfalls if you have built your life on stress hormones.

Then due to excess E2 my ACTH and gonadtrophins shut down via negative feedback and hypothyroidism, and it took about a year to recover. I've been through three crashes, all due to the fact my basal metabolic rate cannot co-ordinate excess adrenal hormones very well. DHEA oral, pregnenolone, DHT blockers, I've been through the lot. If your adrenal mitochondria and thyroid receptor sensitivity cannot process exogenous adminstration, which most people are not in the optimum respiratory health to initiate this management and therefore spend months and years figuring out why, wasting time that could have been spent with salt, sugar, sleep, low serotonin, exercise duties, then save yourself with hormone supplements and go straight for the mitochondria. This message is not put across clearly enough. It's so simple but I bet most who come here do not start off with this simple framework, which as I said in itself takes years to master.

Nothing beats what I outlined in my earlier lengthy post. No supplement will compensate for a low active lifestyle, good sleep, diligent use of sugar, salt, and thyroid. Adrenal suppression, as I have been through, complete depersonalisation and zombification, is possible with excess pregnenolone, and this must be warned to new members should I leave soon.

Guys, I feel great, and can continue with my life, I've been on licorice a couple weeks now, and something seems to have locked into place. I was held randsom for a while, learned helplessness, but I am ready to get out there and continue living.

A powerful ionizer, salt, lysine, vitamin E, licorice, sugar before bed and exercise, and increased cardio intensity at the gym have vastly improved my opportunities and outlook now, all thanks to Dr Ray Peat.

My focus solely on external pregnenolone for so long was extremely misguided. The body's levers of control are VERY tightly regulated. Do not feel you can fool mother nature and evolution.

If I was to list all the supplements I've trialed, I'd probably need about three threads worth with about 50 on each. All I can say is, I want my £1000s back, and to start again. It all comes back to the simple fact that adrenal respiration is at the heart, and can be repaired by everyday items at home and in your community, and an honest assessment of whether aspects of your life are claustrophobic.

Regards
Dan

Hi Dan,
I have been reading all your posts as you go. I will confess to a little doubt about whether you can know with such detail and accuracy and with the certainty you claim about the all the hormonal interactions you say you have experienced. I think your descriptions of what you think has been happening valuable, though, and I'm glad you've been describing your experience.

kineticz said:

E2 seems to at least mitigate the causes and negative effects of your hypothyroidism.

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This wouldn't surprise me. As far as I can tell, all the stress hormones are called on to compensate when thyroid function is not up to the demands of the day, so I guess estrogen is in there with all the other. Peat's overall strategy seems to be to optimise thyroid metabolism so that the demands on the stress hormones are reduced in frequency and duration.

kineticz said:

No supplement will compensate for a low active lifestyle, good sleep, diligent use of sugar, salt, and thyroid. Adrenal suppression, as I have been through, complete depersonalisation and zombification, is possible with excess pregnenolone, and this must be warned to new members should I leave soon.

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I think it makes sense to focus, as you say, on lifestyle, sleep, sugar, salt, as well meeting other nutritional needs. I tend to think it usually makes sense to tackle these first, before assessing whether thyroid (and maybe progesterone) supplementation is needed.

kineticz said:

Guys, I feel great, and can continue with my life, I've been on licorice a couple weeks now, and something seems to have locked into place. I was held randsom for a while, learned helplessness, but I am ready to get out there and continue living.

A powerful ionizer, salt, lysine, vitamin E, licorice, sugar before bed and exercise, and increased cardio intensity at the gym have vastly improved my opportunities and outlook now, all thanks to Dr Ray Peat.

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Fantastic that you've got it working for you.
From what I know so far, I would not recommend licorice in general for most people, on the basis that it is known to be estrogenic and very few people share the problem you describe of very low E2 (and other issues mentioned above). But I don't think you are recommending it to everybody either, just people who find themselves in the same boat as you, with severely depressed estrogen from aggressively and systematically blocking it, right?

kineticz said:

My focus solely on external pregnenolone for so long was extremely misguided. The body's levers of control are VERY tightly regulated. Do not feel you can fool mother nature and evolution.

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Yes, I can see there are risks of messing with the bodies own regulatory mechanisms when using large amounts of any hormone supplement, especially while ignoring diet and lifestyle factors.

kineticz said:

If I was to list all the supplements I've trialed, I'd probably need about three threads worth with about 50 on each. All I can say is, I want my £1000s back, and to start again. It all comes back to the simple fact that adrenal respiration is at the heart, and can be repaired by everyday items at home and in your community, and an honest assessment of whether aspects of your life are claustrophobic.

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[/quote]
Well, the model I'm still finding compelling is that thyroid metabolism is at the heart, but that adrenal metabolism is also important, particularly as the back-up generator when the main supply (thyroid) can't keep up.

Out of curiosity, if you want to write any more, have you checked out what happens without licorice but with all the other factors you've figured out recently? I don't know if there would be a withdrawal effect from licorice to take into account with such an experiment, or how long it would have to be to be meaningful.

Personally, I only recently experimented with pregnenolone. I had a rough couple of weeks, though there seemed to be other factors at play, so I didn't initially associate it with the pregnenlolone. I've backed off again, and may try more cautiously again some time in the future. Unlike you, I think my key health issues are more likely associated with excessive estrogen along with mild hypothyroid function, which I have been attempting to counter with sugar, salt, progesterone and small amounts of NWT, and other food etc.

In the unlikely event that I ever get tempted to take massive prolonged doses of multiple estrogen blocking drugs, I will bear in mind your caution. :)

tara said:

Hi Dan,
I have been reading all your posts as you go. I will confess to a little doubt about whether you can know with such detail and accuracy and with the certainty you claim about the all the hormonal interactions you say you have experienced. I think your descriptions of what you think has been happening valuable, though, and I'm glad you've been describing your experience.

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Hi Tara

Licorice was the most recent supplement I've added to the list of Peat style improvements. What I noticed is that all the items besides licorice reduce my stress response and promote a more balanced mood, but it does not seem to boost metabolism very much. I just sit in this low state of general contentment, but am easily pushed back into the stress reaction and serotonin, adrenaline.

Hence I went back to my low E2 as a theory, and added in the licorice. I have read, and believe to be true, that besides MAOI effects of E2, E2 has been shown to inhibit the ACTH stress response, which in my view is useful for replenishing adrenal mitochondrial pregnenolone. Increased pregnenolone will reduce prolactin via a more effective thyroid, and lower prolactin increases dopamine as a ratio of adrenaline.

It is important to point out to people that serotonin is primarily caused by muscle catabolism in hypothyroidism, so it can be very high even when estrogen is low. Low estrogen does not guarantee reduced serotonin, it can actually increase catabolism in my view, and increase TSH due to depleted adrenal mitochondria, which increased prolactin via TRH. Hence my earlier points that serotonin, prolactin, and estrogen, are not strictly in the same group or directly proportional to one another. Estrogen reduces energy expenditure but it can also be protective from further degradation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11750181

What I believe happened to me was that, through the use of estrogen and DHT blockers, and then oral pregnenolone, which all led me down a path of helplessness and insecurity, high anxiety, shrouded my adrenals in fatty acids and low respiration, resulting in high tyrosine to adrenaline conversions for energy. We all know that high adrenaline rapidly strips the body of vital nutrients for vitality such as zinc, vitamin C, vitamin D, even copper itself can become depleted.

E2 had no chance due to a) adrenal insufficiency and b) prolactin induced conversion of free testosterone down the DHT route due to increased TRH/TSH. DHT is a potent E2 antagonist, and studies show DHT increases the preg to prog conversion, making preg further deficient. DHT highly stimulates adrenergic alpha receptors. We know prog blocks E2 receptor density. So I got into this horrible catabolic hypothyroid prolactin state with low MOAI and pregnenolone transfer.

E2, I believe, was mediating a low metabolic state by protecting the ACTH sensitivity to my high stress lifestyle, allowing pregnenolone some daily (but not optimal, in male and in Peat terms) respite to co-ordinate D1 enzyme metabolic activity (T3).

Another key thing I found out today was that my grandmother was only born with 1 poorly functioning kidney. Where do the adrenals sit? On the kidneys. My grandmother's son and daughter (my mother) have issues with depression, hypothyroidism, and kidney stones. Also, my dad is bald. So potentially, genetically, I have inherited faulty kidneys and the propensity to go bald. Awesome.

I have also been reading your posts, kineticz, and appreciate them.

I would only pick one nit, as to an active lifestyle the gym is a cliche. 30 minutes/week lifting weights is enough, ala Clarence Bass (page 1 of this thread)

Then I discovered Clarence Bass. In his workout, you basically go all out (just short of failure) on one set just once a week, then forget about that exercise for two weeks. One week, you do squats, presses, rows, biceps and hang raises; the next week, you do deadlifts, bench, chin-ups, triceps and planks. He also advocates altering your rep range frequently: 8/12/20 reps. [Oh, and once a week you do a sprint session. Just all out for 5-7 rounds. (Me, sprints not included)]

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IMO, almost any activity outdoors trumps the treadmills, RP has suggested that having your mind engaged makes a difference. Walking, birding, chopping wood, hitchhiking to Mazatlan, whatever.

BingDing said:

IMO, almost any activity outdoors trumps the treadmills, RP has suggested that having your mind engaged makes a difference. Walking, birding, chopping wood, hitchhiking to Mazatlan, whatever.

Click to expand...

Hi this is very true. Lack of engagement contributes to learned helplessness.

Thanks for all the recognition for my theories and experience.

kin-
Were you using the
Deglycyrrhized Licorice Root Extract...?

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/licorice