Horrendous Time On T3

jaywills

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I just wanted to share my experience on T3, and wondered if anybody else had experiences these side effects after supplementation/ has any suggestions so that i can continue to take t3.

Backgorund: I am a 12stone male, 5 ft 9. Carrying some muscle mass. I have been on T3 for to weeks, but discontinued this morning. My dose has been 25mcg spread accross the day in 5mcg servings. On some days i have gone as high as 40mcg of T3, but has been infrequent over the 2 weeks.
I also take Levoythyroxine (t4), and in the morning combined 5mcg of T3 with around 60mcg of T4. I have also been consuimg around 3000 calories, 130g P, 40g fat (saturated) and around 500g carbs. (fructose, sucrose and starch but predominatnely fructose in the form of fruits).
Previously to supplementing T3, i felt really well. Temps were high. But pulse was low and i was gaining fat rapidly on a low amount of cals. So i decided to supplement T3 to raise my pulse and shift some fat.

Experience: The first few days I felt really good, but since then, i have been plagued with Hypo symptoms. My temp has decreased, serious brain fog, lethargy and muscle weakness has all set in. My sleep has been poor - waking up in the middle of the night. Many vivid dreams and nightmares. Since yesterday i have had severe stomach cramps and constant Diarrhea. Last night i woke up around 5 times to go to the toilet, and my stomach is extremly sensitive today. I have thus decided to discotninue t3 until i recieve some responses here and thus i havent taken any today.

Is there any hope for me with T3? Will these symptoms dissapear if i continue dosing? Is my dosing too high/low? What about my calories?

I also came accross this: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ad ... -cortisol/. Could low cortisol be a reason?
 
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jaywills

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hi protype, to raise my pulse (was around 50bpm) and to curb the weight gain i was experiencing.
 

north

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Ive had a similar experience, and im on similar thyroid and similar kcal.
I reduced my thyroid a bit and it got better but still not perfect, still searching for that balance.

I found this thread, and Peat says when thyroid is good youre not as dependent on your adrenal hormones.

Have you tried pregnenolone? Whats your cholesterol level?
U might need more raw material to "build" steroid hormons of now when you have more thyroid in your body.

Maybe someone else knows more.

----

User readforjoy also said this so it might be worth trying,

"Postby readforjoy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:24 am

I love Peat, but I strongly disagree with his statement, " So I think the ‘low adrenal’ people are simply low thyroid, or deficient in cholesterol or nutrients.”

People like me who are low in cortisol will feel worse when trying to supplement thyroid (with NDT or T3) unless they do something to boost their cortisol levels. Thyroid and cortisol work together synergestically. From what I'm reading, hydrocortisone, pregnenolone, or progesterone can be used to boost cortisol.

I've tried NDT and T3 and they made me much worse. Hydrocortisone didn't work. Frequent doses of pregnenolone together with T3 DID work. I am currently switching from pregnenolone to progesterone, though, because I am estrogen dominant."
 
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jaywills

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Thank you prototype, this is much appreciated as i am seriously seriosuly worried. I think i have entered a period of Hyperthyroidism (Thyroid Storm). I have therefore stopped dosing T3 and will leave a least a week to resettle. I have used Pregnenlone in the past, but coincidentally, have stopped using the last 2 or 3 weeks. I have some at home so I will continue dosing as soon as i get home. How much would you suggest to take? I have 100mcg pills...

I too am estrogen dominant (gynecomastia a clear sign) and bought some Progesterone previously. I stopped using as i didnt want to reduce my DHT but i guess i could use it tonight in this emergency to pull me out of the gutter i am currently in.
 

north

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Ive seen Peat say 100mcg would be a good starting dose.
Hows your selenium, b vitamins, zinc?
Eating carrots?
 
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jaywills

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I dont think it would be any deficiency in Vitamins/minerals. I eat eggs every day for B Vits, prawns 3/4 times per week for Selenium. Zinc i take a tablet, but also do eat some Organic Steak weekly. Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.

prototype, what is the half life of T3, and in your experience, how long did it take for you to feel better?
Should i eat some goistrogenic vegtables to slow my thyroid down/ reduce carbs for the next week to lower my T3 again?
 

north

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It seems we have a very similar situation.
Do you not eat liver? I feel that is important at least for me.

In my own experience the t3 acts fast and is also degraded fast if you don't split up the doses a lot.
I noticed big difference from taking 2-3 mcg more often than taking 5-8mcg more seldom.
I asked peat about it and he said liver enzymes which neutralize t3 increase if you take big doses which makes sense, but it was more sensitive than I thought.
Even if I took t3 with food.

I've always been on about 20mcg t3, and what I did was lower t4 from 75 to 50/60.
That seemed to get rid of hyper symptoms (I believe that's what it was). Peat advised me to lower thyroid also. I don't think you should eat goitrogens, just lower t3 or t4.
 
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prototype said:
"Postby readforjoy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:24 am

I love Peat, but I strongly disagree with his statement, " So I think the ‘low adrenal’ people are simply low thyroid, or deficient in cholesterol or nutrients.”
I think this blog post presents Peat's defense [quick overview: you need more sugar (bolded), less endotoxins]:

Ray Peat said:
“The upper part of the small intestine is sterile in healthy people. In the last 40 years, there has been increasing interest in the “contaminated small-bowel syndrome,” or the “small intestine bacterial overgrowth syndrome.” When peristalsis is reduced, for example by hypothyroidism, along with reduced secretion of digestive fluids, bacteria are able to thrive in the upper part of the intestine. Sugars are very quickly absorbed in the upper intestine, so starches and fibers normally provide most of the nourishment for bowel bacteria…Thyroid hormone increases digestive activity, including stomach acid and peristalsis, and both thyroid and progesterone increase the ability of the intestine to absorb sugars quickly; their deficiency can permit bacteria to live on sugars as well as starches.”

“Bacterial endotoxin increases serotonin release from the intestine, and increases its synthesis in the brain (Nolan, et al., 2000) and liver (Bado, 1983). It also stimulates its release from platelets, and reduces the lungs’ ability to destroy it. The formation of serotonin in the intestine is also stimulated by the lactate, propionate and butyrate that are formed by bacteria fermenting fiber and starch, but these bacteria also produce endotoxin. The inflammation-producing effects of lactate, serotonin, and endotoxin are overlapping, additive, and sometimes synergistic, along with histamine, nitric oxide, bradykinin, and the cytokines.”

“Starches and fibers support bacterial growth and can increase serotonin.”

“Since cholesterol is the source of progesterone and testosterone (and pregnenolone, DHEA, etc.), and sugar increases it, having fruit rather than starch might increase the hormones. Those hormones, antagonistic to cortisol, can help to reduce waist fat.”

“Sugar helps the liver to make cholesterol, switching from starchy vegetables to sweet fruits will usually bring cholesterol levels up to normal.”


“Besides avoiding foods containing fermentable fibers and starches that resist quick digestion, eating fibrous foods that contain antibacterial chemicals, such as bamboo shoots or raw carrots, helps to reduce endotoxin and serotonin.”

“Bacteria thrive on starches that aren’t quickly digested, and the bacteria convert the energy into bulk, and stimulate the intestine. (But at the same time, they are making the toxins that affect the hormones.)”

“Polysaccharides and oligosaccharides include many kinds of molecules that no human enzyme can break down, so they necessarily aren’t broken down for absorption until they encounter bacterial or fungal enzymes. In a well maintained digestive system, those organisms will live almost exclusively in the large intestine, leaving the length of the small intestine for the absorption of monosaccharides without fermentation. When digestive secretions are inadequate, and peristalsis is sluggish, bacteria and fungi can invade the small intestine, interfering with digestion and causing inflammation and toxic effects.”
 

tara

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jaywills said:
Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.
I reduce the carotene by rinsing the grated carrot 2-3 times before eating. When the water runs from bright orange to clearish there won't be anywhere near as much carotene available. I am averse to carrots otherwise.
 

aguilaroja

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jaywills said:
My dose has been 25mcg spread accross the day in 5mcg servings. On some days i have gone as high as 40mcg of T3, but has been infrequent over the 2 weeks.
I also take Levoythyroxine (t4), and in the morning combined 5mcg of T3 with around 60mcg of T4.

The half life of T3 is short, taken to be around a day in some studies. As you have probably read, hypothyroid people can notice T3 effects running down after a few hours or part of a day.

Review basic hyperthyroid symptoms, monitor and of course seek help if things are severe. Depending on severity, you might wait and follow how things subside. If thyroid function is very high, it may be best to reduce or cease the T4 for the moment, due to the longer half life. If thyroid function is high, the action of T4 could have been building over the two weeks. If it is necessary to reduce thyroid function temporarily, cabbage/kale/cruciferous "green" juices may be rapidly helpful.

It is suggested to entirely hold off on pregnenolone or progesterone while returning to the pre-T3 baseline, as either measure can increase thyroid function.

If I read correctly, a large amount of T3 (up to 40 microgram) was started and increased rapidly, when by report previously there was a general feeling of wellness. The T4/T3 ratio was also near 2 to 1. It is generally best to decide on thyroid support based on multiple factors, rather than mainly a single parameter such as pulse, with extended metabolic context in mind.

"The half-life of supplemental T3 in adult patients undergoing cardiopulmonary bypass was previously reported as 24 hours"

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/101 ... 3.full.pdf
 

narouz

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This is some very thoughtful Peatian advice.
I was interested in the pregnenolone/progesterone recommendations.
Food for thought!


aguilaroja said:
jaywills said:
My dose has been 25mcg spread accross the day in 5mcg servings. On some days i have gone as high as 40mcg of T3, but has been infrequent over the 2 weeks.
I also take Levoythyroxine (t4), and in the morning combined 5mcg of T3 with around 60mcg of T4.

The half life of T3 is short, taken to be around a day in some studies. As you have probably read, hypothyroid people can notice T3 effects running down after a few hours or part of a day.

Review basic hyperthyroid symptoms, monitor and of course seek help if things are severe. Depending on severity, you might wait and follow how things subside. If thyroid function is very high, it may be best to reduce or cease the T4 for the moment, due to the longer half life. If thyroid function is high, the action of T4 could have been building over the two weeks. If it is necessary to reduce thyroid function temporarily, cabbage/kale/cruciferous "green" juices may be rapidly helpful.

It is suggested to entirely hold off on pregnenolone or progesterone while returning to the pre-T3 baseline, as either measure can increase thyroid function.

If I read correctly, a large amount of T3 (up to 40 microgram) was started and increased rapidly, when by report previously there was a general feeling of wellness. The T4/T3 ratio was also near 2 to 1. It is generally best to decide on thyroid support based on multiple factors, rather than mainly a single parameter such as pulse, with extended metabolic context in mind.

"The half-life of supplemental T3 in adult patients undergoing cardiopulmonary bypass was previously reported as 24 hours"

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/101 ... 3.full.pdf
 

Gl;itch.e

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tara said:
jaywills said:
Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.
I reduce the carotene by rinsing the grated carrot 2-3 times before eating. When the water runs from bright orange to clearish there won't be anywhere near as much carotene available. I am averse to carrots otherwise.
I wish that was all that was needed. I did this for ages and even soaked over night just to be sure. Always ran clear before I would use it. I had to drop back on the carrot salad, and at present am only doing 1 large carrots worth every week or two. My hands/calluses are showing pretty damn yellow. I have even been supplementing with B12 for a long time to make sure I had enough of that to help with conversion. Not sure what's going on exactly.
 

tara

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Gl;itch.e said:
tara said:
jaywills said:
Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.
I reduce the carotene by rinsing the grated carrot 2-3 times before eating. When the water runs from bright orange to clearish there won't be anywhere near as much carotene available. I am averse to carrots otherwise.
I wish that was all that was needed. I did this for ages and even soaked over night just to be sure. Always ran clear before I would use it. I had to drop back on the carrot salad, and at present am only doing 1 large carrots worth every week or two. My hands/calluses are showing pretty damn yellow. I have even been supplementing with B12 for a long time to make sure I had enough of that to help with conversion. Not sure what's going on exactly.
I've been assuming that the yellow would accumulate in callouses when carotene was too high, but would only be removed as the callouses wore down, not by being converted to A (with the aid of B12). So it would be new skin or callouses that would show whether the current carotene levels were extra high. Are you assessing old growth callouses or new grown skin?

My taste buds tell me there is a big difference. I forgot to rinse once a month or two ago, and found it inedible. Most of the taste goes out of it with rinsing (and maybe some of the antibacterial chemicals?) but the useful fibre remains. I think I can tell my gut likes it.
 

Gl;itch.e

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tara said:
Gl;itch.e said:
tara said:
jaywills said:
Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.
I reduce the carotene by rinsing the grated carrot 2-3 times before eating. When the water runs from bright orange to clearish there won't be anywhere near as much carotene available. I am averse to carrots otherwise.
I wish that was all that was needed. I did this for ages and even soaked over night just to be sure. Always ran clear before I would use it. I had to drop back on the carrot salad, and at present am only doing 1 large carrots worth every week or two. My hands/calluses are showing pretty damn yellow. I have even been supplementing with B12 for a long time to make sure I had enough of that to help with conversion. Not sure what's going on exactly.
I've been assuming that the yellow would accumulate in callouses when carotene was too high, but would only be removed as the callouses wore down, not by being converted to A (with the aid of B12). So it would be new skin or callouses that would show whether the current carotene levels were extra high. Are you assessing old growth callouses or new grown skin?

My taste buds tell me there is a big difference. I forgot to rinse once a month or two ago, and found it inedible. Most of the taste goes out of it with rinsing (and maybe some of the antibacterial chemicals?) but the useful fibre remains. I think I can tell my gut likes it.
Well since it is quite apparent in the softer skin of the fingers and palms, and the fact that I tend to tear my calluses off when deadlifting I would think that the build up has been entirely from the carrot even with rinsing extensively. I do also take Nutrisorb Vitamin A at 10,000iu a day, but I have only started doing that recently, long after noticing the yellow build up and backing off on the carrot.
 
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jaywills

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I thought I would post an update on my wellbeing since I first post and to give an insight into anyone following who had a similar experience. I spent the next two days after my post in extreme pain (abdomen), I also had chronic diarrhea for both days and experienced night sweats and feeling cold despite a high temp. The last 2 days I have felt a lot better, stomach is less sore and my bathroom issues have resolved. My temp seems to have returned to normal. I havent taken the t3, or any t4 in 4 days.... I am really perplexed as to what this was... It may have been a virus/ or something like Salmonella, but i do think this was related to my t3. As my stomach still feels a bit rough, I have thought that it may have also been that the T3 was awakening my body to something more problematic in my stomach, and the increase in metabolism was unmasking this...

Throughout the 4 days I tried to keep milk and sugar high. I did not starve myself like some would suggest with a 'virus', if in case it was this. I ate my normal peatish diet which included: cherries, greek yog, skimmed milk, sucrose (plain white sugar), watermelon, liver, eggs, coconut oil etc.

I did decide to follow aguilaroja's post, and did have a head 2xbroccoli head florets (well cooked) on saturday. This did seem to help. I also did take pregnenolone 100mcg, on the saturday and sunday and it did make me feel a whole lot better.

I am still undecided as to whether I restart T3, but due to what i have experienced, it is likely i wont risk it.

Prototype, if you would like to discuss further, as we seem to be in a similar boat, just pm me.
 
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jaywills said:
I thought I would post an update on my wellbeing since I first post and to give an insight into anyone following who had a similar experience. I spent the next two days after my post in extreme pain (abdomen), I also had chronic diarrhea for both days and experienced night sweats and feeling cold despite a high temp. The last 2 days I have felt a lot better, stomach is less sore and my bathroom issues have resolved. My temp seems to have returned to normal. I havent taken the t3, or any t4 in 4 days.... I am really perplexed as to what this was... It may have been a virus/ or something like Salmonella, but i do think this was related to my t3. As my stomach still feels a bit rough, I have thought that it may have also been that the T3 was awakening my body to something more problematic in my stomach, and the increase in metabolism was unmasking this...
Hi jw, sorry to hear of your troubles. Over in the Getting Ripped thread it's been suggested to experiment with activated charcoal. You can read about it in the thread here. The idea is that generally the public is underdosing, and the proper dose is as much as it takes to resolve the issue - which could be multiple tablespoons in a day. The longterm study that Peat cites was done with the equivalent of a cup (16 tablespoons) per day, intermittently, so it's unlikely you'll need more than that.

If you're willing to experiment with us, please share what you learn?
 
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Gl;itch.e said:
tara said:
Gl;itch.e said:
tara said:
jaywills said:
Im also having carrot salad. I have been backing off carrot salad recently due to yellow palms on Hands/Feet; and problems of converting the carotene to Vit A.
I reduce the carotene by rinsing the grated carrot 2-3 times before eating. When the water runs from bright orange to clearish there won't be anywhere near as much carotene available. I am averse to carrots otherwise.
I wish that was all that was needed. I did this for ages and even soaked over night just to be sure. Always ran clear before I would use it. I had to drop back on the carrot salad, and at present am only doing 1 large carrots worth every week or two. My hands/calluses are showing pretty damn yellow. I have even been supplementing with B12 for a long time to make sure I had enough of that to help with conversion. Not sure what's going on exactly.
I've been assuming that the yellow would accumulate in callouses when carotene was too high, but would only be removed as the callouses wore down, not by being converted to A (with the aid of B12). So it would be new skin or callouses that would show whether the current carotene levels were extra high. Are you assessing old growth callouses or new grown skin?

My taste buds tell me there is a big difference. I forgot to rinse once a month or two ago, and found it inedible. Most of the taste goes out of it with rinsing (and maybe some of the antibacterial chemicals?) but the useful fibre remains. I think I can tell my gut likes it.
Well since it is quite apparent in the softer skin of the fingers and palms, and the fact that I tend to tear my calluses off when deadlifting I would think that the build up has been entirely from the carrot even with rinsing extensively. I do also take Nutrisorb Vitamin A at 10,000iu a day, but I have only started doing that recently, long after noticing the yellow build up and backing off on the carrot.

It seems you need vitamin E to help conversion in the intestine. I can't find anything about carotenoid conversion outside the intestine. Absorption and conversion should be non-existent especially if you eat liver but carotene is a marketing scam either way. [http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/5/900.full]
 

Gl;itch.e

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Such_Saturation said:
It seems you need vitamin E to help conversion in the intestine. I can't find anything about carotenoid conversion outside the intestine. Absorption and conversion should be non-existent especially if you eat liver but carotene is a marketing scam either way. [http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/75/5/900.full]
Well that is interesting Saturation, since I dont currently take any Vitamin E outside of a small amount in my LEF Selenium that I take ocassionally. I did for awhile but felt like it was having a negative effect on my libido and strength.
 

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