Thoughts On Gelatin (endotoxins)

kiran · Sep 2, 2014

I used to use knox for a while, it would work great, then stopped helping. Then I used Great Lakes and it worked great and then it stopped working. I've tried both porcine (pig) gelatin and hydrolysate and neither seems to work as well as bovine (cow) gelatin. I wonder if might possibly due to endotoxin in the gelatin.

I can't really get Great Lakes right now, so I'm kinda stuck using a local brand. It's not that great overall. But one thing i noticed recently is that if you let it sit for a bit, something doesn't quite dissolve at the bottom, looks a bit cloudy. So the last couple of times, I threw away the inch of liquid or so at the very bottom. And now gelatin makes me feel better again. Plus it seems to reduce that gelatin taste quite a bit, it's much more neutral now.

Might be worth doing if you have some time and don't have access to the best gelatin. Might even be worth trying for great lakes.

extremecheddar · Sep 2, 2014

I was thinking about the same glob at the bottom today while taking some gelatin. I will give this a shot.

I have also wondered if home made oxtail soup or chicken feet pose the same endotoxin problem?

johns74 · Sep 2, 2014

embs2001 said:
I have also wondered if home made oxtail soup or chicken feet pose the same endotoxin problem?

No, chicken feet poses the arsenic problem.

Such_Saturation · Sep 2, 2014

We need to buy ten pounds of this and split the cost: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/50046

tara · Sep 2, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
We need to buy ten pounds of this and split the cost: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/50046

Do you have reason to believe this is significantly/relevantly better quality than the purebulk glycine?

Such_Saturation · Sep 2, 2014

tara said:
Such_Saturation said:

We need to buy ten pounds of this and split the cost: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/50046

Click to expand...

Do you have reason to believe this is significantly/relevantly better quality than the purebulk glycine?

Well BioUltra is the second highest purity that that company offers (for biology experiments) and has the longest list of tests than all other varieties (drop down menu). USP is way way below that (USP is what doctors feed us). I've rarely seen supplement companies offer anything which isn't from China, and then it's from Belgium or something. Still USP is your best hope in that case.

Finest quality products for life science, with the most stringent testing protocols and highest purity. Superior manufacturing methods and product specific testing protocols are designed to ensure quality to our highest standard. Tests may include, but are not limited to, purity by gel electrophoresis, trace metal testing and application testing.

kiran · Sep 3, 2014

Such_Saturation said:
We need to buy ten pounds of this and split the cost: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/50046

Glycine doesn't have all the benefits of Gelatin though. The peptides in gelatin have good effects.

kiran · Sep 3, 2014

Here's some theoretical support.

Apparently one way to remove endotoxin from proteins is to use a "TWO-PHASE MICELLAR SYSTEM". Applying heat and a surfactant results in the separation of the solution "into two predominantly aqueous, yet immiscible, liquid phases, one of which has a greater concentration of micelles than the other"

Particularly for endotoxin removal, above the critical micelle concentration (CMC) of surfactants, endotoxins are accommodated in the micellar structure by non-polar interactions of alkyl chains of lipid A and the surfactant tail groups and are consequently separated from the water phase (micelle-poor phase). Surfactants of the Triton series show a miscibility gap in aqueous solutions. Above a critical temperature, the so-called cloud point, micelles aggregate to droplets with very low water content, by that forming a new phase. Endotoxins remain in the surfactant-rich phase. Through centrifugation or further increase in temperature the two-phases separate with the surfactant-rich phase being the bottom phase (66, 105, 107). If necessary, this process is repeated until the remaining endotoxin concentration is below the threshold limit. The cloud point of Triton X-114 is at 22°C, which is advantageous when purifying proteins.

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS10_3/M ... S_996.html

Sugar hydrolyzes when heated and becomes glucose and fructose, which behave as surfactants and reduce surface tension at low concentrations (<5 wt.%)
https://acs.confex.com/acs/csss06/techp ... P30854.HTM

So we have heat and a surfactant, that should be enough to remove a lot of the endotoxin. The paper claims reduction of endotoxin by a factor of 50-1000 by this method, using Triton X-114. I wonder how good the homegrown method is.

BingDing · Sep 3, 2014

But gelatin is also relatively high in glutamine (excitatory) and arginine (promotes NO) so it's not totally clean. Also, Mary Enig has written that hydrolysis of a protein that includes glutamic acid inherently produces msg, although Great Lakes says there is no msg in their collagen hydrolysate. I have nagging doubts about the whole question.

Pure Bulk says glycine is out of stock and Sigma-Aldrich says they will ship in November. I'd like to have pure glycine in addition to gelatin. :2cents

Such_Saturation · Sep 3, 2014

Perhaps something like this works? Maybe later we can make the protein precipitate in some manner.

[BBvideo 560,340:39k82mtu]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqfiTxDwg[/BBvideo]

Luann · Sep 28, 2017

kiran said:
Here's some theoretical support.

Apparently one way to remove endotoxin from proteins is to use a "TWO-PHASE MICELLAR SYSTEM". Applying heat and a surfactant results in the separation of the solution "into two predominantly aqueous, yet immiscible, liquid phases, one of which has a greater concentration of micelles than the other"

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS10_3/M ... S_996.html

Sugar hydrolyzes when heated and becomes glucose and fructose, which behave as surfactants and reduce surface tension at low concentrations (<5 wt.%)
https://acs.confex.com/acs/csss06/techp ... P30854.HTM

So we have heat and a surfactant, that should be enough to remove a lot of the endotoxin. The paper claims reduction of endotoxin by a factor of 50-1000 by this method, using Triton X-114. I wonder how good the homegrown method is.

So you are suggesting that heating gelatin with sugar can reduce the endotoxin load. Do you have more a more detailed guideline for how to do this? How hot, how long to heat for, and how to separate the micelle-rich and poor portions of gelatin? Thanks kiran.

lvysaur · Sep 28, 2017

lol @ not buying pig feet, but also don't do that because there's already enough hipsters driving up the price

omnivoracious · Sep 28, 2017

When using the standard Gelatin from Great Lakes I would always get a small pool of gelatin goo in the bottom of my coffee thermos. Since switching to the Collagen Hydrolysate that has never been an issue. I mostly use the Gelatin for making gummy bears since it seems to work best for the consistency of the final product. Collagen Hydrosylate works really nicely in coffee and soups.

Dobbler · Sep 29, 2017

Great Lakes gelatins price is so salty, grocery store gelatin is half cheaper. Sure theres quality difference but i refuse to drive an hour to buy twice more expensive gelatin just because its trendy brand

johnwester130 · Sep 29, 2017

it's not a great food, at least not for me or the brand I was using.

glycine powder was a huge problem.

great lakes gelatin, red and green, both gave me weird uncomfortable symptoms. i think the only solution would be whole food broth. maybe heating the gelatin in a hot drink altered it in some way.

FredSonoma · Sep 29, 2017

johnwester130 said:
it's not a great food, at least not for me or the brand I was using.

glycine powder was a huge problem.

great lakes gelatin, red and green, both gave me weird uncomfortable symptoms. i think the only solution would be whole food broth. maybe heating the gelatin in a hot drink altered it in some way.

Same! The great lakes gelatin makes me feel extremely anxious, feel very weird for at least 6 hours after eating it.

kiran · Sep 29, 2017

Liubo said:
So you are suggesting that heating gelatin with sugar can reduce the endotoxin load. Do you have more a more detailed guideline for how to do this? How hot, how long to heat for, and how to separate the micelle-rich and poor portions of gelatin? Thanks kiran.

Basically you just want to make a big pot of jelly(just like jello) with lots of sugar. You'll see that the bottom half inch or so will be cloudy. Just discard that bit and your endotoxin load will be much reduced. Its probably easier to do this with unflavored jelly.

johnwester130 · Sep 29, 2017

kiran said:
Basically you just want to make a big pot of jelly(just like jello) with lots of sugar. You'll see that the bottom half inch or so will be cloudy. Just discard that bit and your endotoxin load will be much reduced. Its probably easier to do this with unflavored jelly.

so this "gelatin foam" is the problem ? i have also noticed it in jelly based foods.

Luann · Sep 29, 2017

@kiran! :) Thanks for your answer. I had a serious gelatin headache all day. I will be trying your method and also would like to try filtering the gelatin like someone - Zachs maybe? - did in one of the threads. Thanks

kiran · Sep 30, 2017

johnwester130 said:
so this "gelatin foam" is the problem ? i have also noticed it in jelly based foods.

I'm still not entirely clear on why small amounts of endotoxin causes problems. Perhaps the toxins from hydrolysation are especially bad or irritating?
I had noticed a while back that gelatin (great lakes red can) is more tolerable than the non-gelling collagen(green can). Health natura's collagen was pretty good too.

Liubo said:
@kiran! :) Thanks for your answer. I had a serious gelatin headache all day. I will be trying your method and also would like to try filtering the gelatin like someone - Zachs maybe? - did in one of the threads. Thanks

Gelatin can also activate some viruses and cause vasodilation due to the arginine, I'm wondering if that might be the real cause of your gelatin headache. Especially if you've been avoiding gelatin for a little bit like I have...

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Thoughts On Gelatin (endotoxins)

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