L-lysine - Serotonin Antagonist

kineticz

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Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this
 

narouz

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kineticz said:
Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

Very interesting, k.
Lysine is the go-to (non-pharma) supplement to combat herpes.
This is food for thought.
I'd never heard of the anti-serotonin properties...
Thanks.
 
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kineticz

kineticz

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narouz

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kineticz said:
narouz said:
kineticz said:
There are several studies and it's on Wikipedia:

http://www.pnas.org/content/100/26/15370.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC307574/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysine#Cli ... gnificance

Really does reduce my anxiety and improve my mental stability. I seem to breathe easier with it too.

How much, what brand do you take, kineticz?

I take 2 x 500mg, got it from an ebay seller called Oxford Vitality.

Was there something special about it...purity or something...?
 

haidut

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Lysine is a competitive inhibitor of arginine absorption and transport, and as such has been proposed to inhibit the synthesis of NO. Here are several studies showing that it does in fact inhibit NO synthesis and as such has been tested for endotoxin protection and schizophrenia. Btw, It seems NO is implicated in virtually all human pathologies these days!
Animal studies used doses equivalent to about 4g-6g per day for a human, and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

1. Human studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21501494
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25227564


2. Animal studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15155866
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14761191
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10961969
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17235609
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9375972

In addition, here are more studies showing lysine acts like a serotonin and opioid antagonist in the GI tract, and heart. In the heart study, lysine acted similar to thyroid hormone to increase contraction force and was proposed to be helpful for performance enhancement in exercise. Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/4/928.long
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/22/8285.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19662383
"...However, L-lysine (5 mM) shifted the concentration-response curve for a positive inotropic effect of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT; serotonin) in atrium of transgenic mice (with cardiac specific overexpression of 5-HT(4) receptors) to higher concentrations. In summary, we describe a novel positive inotropic effect of an essential amino acid, L-lysine, in the mammalian heart. One might speculate that L-lysine treatment under certain conditions could sustain cardiac performance. Moreover, L-lysine is able to block, at least in part, cardiac 5-HT(4) receptors."

Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, lysine seems to be a much more general serotonin antagonist without any agonist effects. If this is true, and lysine does not have some unforeseen bad effect Peat has written about then I think lysine could be a viable option for people having gut issues like IBS, IBD, Chron's etc. All these conditions present with increased serotonin synthesis in the gut combined with high NO (and lysine inhibits that too).
Finally, a general serotonin antagonist would likely have an anti-depressant effect without the potentially dopamine-suppressing qualities of cyproheptadine (thorough its antagonism of the 5-HT2C receptor).
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... X/abstract

"...L-lysine (0.8 mmol/dL) inhibited serotonin binding to guinea pig corpus striatum 5-HT4 receptors by 9.7% but had no effect on other serotonin receptors. At 100-fold higher concentration (80 mmol/dL), which are non-physiologic, lysine blocked >40% of serotonin binding to 5-HT4 receptors but also inhibited binding to 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B. Binding results were compared to effects of L-lysine on serotonin-evoked ileal contractions. By itself, L-lysine had no contractile action on huinea pig ileal segments indicating a lack of serotonin receptor agonism. Conversely, L-lysine at a concentration (0.7 mmol/dL) similar to that which blocked 5-HT4 receptors reduced serotonin-evoked ileal contractions by 35% confirming its action as a serotonin receptor antagonist. A related amino acid, L-leucine did not modify serotonin-elicited contractions showing the specificity of L-lysine actions."
 
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kineticz

kineticz

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Excellent, combining 1gram lysine with a powerful ioniser, plenty of orange juice and carbs, copper, bcaas, and aspirin are proving highly effective in boosting what appears to be my dopamine pathways.
 

narouz

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Wonderful stuff, haidut!

What is your take on the lysine--herpes thing?
The most obvious and oft-cited relationship is the arginine competitor angle you note.
Do you think that's mainly it,
or are there ways of looking at it?

Any stray thoughts appreciated!
Thanks.
 

narouz

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kineticz said:
Excellent, combining 1gram lysine with a powerful ioniser, plenty of orange juice and carbs, copper, bcaas, and aspirin are proving highly effective in boosting what appears to be my dopamine pathways.

What "powerful ionizers" are you thinking of, kin?

And on the bcaa's...
do you take them in the haidut fashion,
and do you then just add the lysine to that mix?
 

haidut

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narouz said:
Wonderful stuff, haidut!

What is your take on the lysine--herpes thing?
The most obvious and oft-cited relationship is the arginine competitor angle you note.
Do you think that's mainly it,
or are there ways of looking at it?

Any stray thoughts appreciated!
Thanks.

Well, herpes and other chronic latent viruses like HIV thrive on NO. If lysine inhibits NO production then this is probably a major reason for its benefit in herpes.
Btw, I posted a study on arginine depletion being a hot topic in cancer treatment. Peat also said in one of his interviews that arginine depletion or NO blockade is a viable treatment for cancer. If lysine is effective as arginine antagonist and NO reducer then it could be useful for that too. I'll see if I can find some studies on that topic.
 

nikotrope

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Why take supplements of L-lysine, when you get more than 1g with 500ml of milk? Am I missing something?
 
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kineticz

kineticz

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narouz said:
kineticz said:
Excellent, combining 1gram lysine with a powerful ioniser, plenty of orange juice and carbs, copper, bcaas, and aspirin are proving highly effective in boosting what appears to be my dopamine pathways.

What "powerful ionizers" are you thinking of, kin?

And on the bcaa's...
do you take them in the haidut fashion,
and do you then just add the lysine to that mix?

I have an expensive ionizer on my bed-side table, and recently I have found that I wake up without sinus irritation or mucus, whereas previously I would always wake up in an allergic type state with poor breathing.

I take the bcaa's before exercise to increase performance.

I read about lysine as something that helps biotin in the mitochondria pathways. I then came across studies as a sero receptor blocker.
 

gretchen

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I'm pretty sure I used to have l-lysine. Someone on the Accutane "survivors" board recommended it.
 

BobbyDukes

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haidut said:
Lysine is a competitive inhibitor of arginine absorption and transport, and as such has been proposed to inhibit the synthesis of NO. Here are several studies showing that it does in fact inhibit NO synthesis and as such has been tested for endotoxin protection and schizophrenia. Btw, It seems NO is implicated in virtually all human pathologies these days!
Animal studies used doses equivalent to about 4g-6g per day for a human, and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

1. Human studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21501494
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25227564


2. Animal studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15155866
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14761191
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10961969
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17235609
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9375972

In addition, here are more studies showing lysine acts like a serotonin and opioid antagonist in the GI tract, and heart. In the heart study, lysine acted similar to thyroid hormone to increase contraction force and was proposed to be helpful for performance enhancement in exercise. Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/4/928.long
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/22/8285.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19662383
"...However, L-lysine (5 mM) shifted the concentration-response curve for a positive inotropic effect of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT; serotonin) in atrium of transgenic mice (with cardiac specific overexpression of 5-HT(4) receptors) to higher concentrations. In summary, we describe a novel positive inotropic effect of an essential amino acid, L-lysine, in the mammalian heart. One might speculate that L-lysine treatment under certain conditions could sustain cardiac performance. Moreover, L-lysine is able to block, at least in part, cardiac 5-HT(4) receptors."

Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, lysine seems to be a much more general serotonin antagonist without any agonist effects. If this is true, and lysine does not have some unforeseen bad effect Peat has written about then I think lysine could be a viable option for people having gut issues like IBS, IBD, Chron's etc. All these conditions present with increased serotonin synthesis in the gut combined with high NO (and lysine inhibits that too).
Finally, a general serotonin antagonist would likely have an anti-depressant effect without the potentially dopamine-suppressing qualities of cyproheptadine (thorough its antagonism of the 5-HT2C receptor).
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... X/abstract

"...L-lysine (0.8 mmol/dL) inhibited serotonin binding to guinea pig corpus striatum 5-HT4 receptors by 9.7% but had no effect on other serotonin receptors. At 100-fold higher concentration (80 mmol/dL), which are non-physiologic, lysine blocked >40% of serotonin binding to 5-HT4 receptors but also inhibited binding to 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B. Binding results were compared to effects of L-lysine on serotonin-evoked ileal contractions. By itself, L-lysine had no contractile action on huinea pig ileal segments indicating a lack of serotonin receptor agonism. Conversely, L-lysine at a concentration (0.7 mmol/dL) similar to that which blocked 5-HT4 receptors reduced serotonin-evoked ileal contractions by 35% confirming its action as a serotonin receptor antagonist. A related amino acid, L-leucine did not modify serotonin-elicited contractions showing the specificity of L-lysine actions."

Hi Haidut; I thought Cypro was a 5HT2C antagonist? Or is it an inverse agonist? How would that supress dopamine? I don't know a lot about it myself, but I have experience taking Valdoxan (which was the best anti-depressant I ever sampled). My understanding of Valdoxan, was that continual antagonism at 5HT2C causes the receptor to downregulate further. The more it downregulates, the more tonic dopamine which is created. It's melatonergic properties were a pain in the ****, but the drug was awesome for my (then) anhedonia. Would you mind explaining how cyproheptadine supresses dopamine through 5HT2C antogonism? I couldn't find any posts you might have made on the subject through a search on the forum.
 

haidut

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BobbyDukes said:
haidut said:
Lysine is a competitive inhibitor of arginine absorption and transport, and as such has been proposed to inhibit the synthesis of NO. Here are several studies showing that it does in fact inhibit NO synthesis and as such has been tested for endotoxin protection and schizophrenia. Btw, It seems NO is implicated in virtually all human pathologies these days!
Animal studies used doses equivalent to about 4g-6g per day for a human, and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

1. Human studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21501494
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25227564


2. Animal studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15155866
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14761191
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10961969
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17235609
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9375972

In addition, here are more studies showing lysine acts like a serotonin and opioid antagonist in the GI tract, and heart. In the heart study, lysine acted similar to thyroid hormone to increase contraction force and was proposed to be helpful for performance enhancement in exercise. Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/4/928.long
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/22/8285.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19662383
"...However, L-lysine (5 mM) shifted the concentration-response curve for a positive inotropic effect of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT; serotonin) in atrium of transgenic mice (with cardiac specific overexpression of 5-HT(4) receptors) to higher concentrations. In summary, we describe a novel positive inotropic effect of an essential amino acid, L-lysine, in the mammalian heart. One might speculate that L-lysine treatment under certain conditions could sustain cardiac performance. Moreover, L-lysine is able to block, at least in part, cardiac 5-HT(4) receptors."

Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, lysine seems to be a much more general serotonin antagonist without any agonist effects. If this is true, and lysine does not have some unforeseen bad effect Peat has written about then I think lysine could be a viable option for people having gut issues like IBS, IBD, Chron's etc. All these conditions present with increased serotonin synthesis in the gut combined with high NO (and lysine inhibits that too).
Finally, a general serotonin antagonist would likely have an anti-depressant effect without the potentially dopamine-suppressing qualities of cyproheptadine (thorough its antagonism of the 5-HT2C receptor).
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0 ... X/abstract

"...L-lysine (0.8 mmol/dL) inhibited serotonin binding to guinea pig corpus striatum 5-HT4 receptors by 9.7% but had no effect on other serotonin receptors. At 100-fold higher concentration (80 mmol/dL), which are non-physiologic, lysine blocked >40% of serotonin binding to 5-HT4 receptors but also inhibited binding to 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B. Binding results were compared to effects of L-lysine on serotonin-evoked ileal contractions. By itself, L-lysine had no contractile action on huinea pig ileal segments indicating a lack of serotonin receptor agonism. Conversely, L-lysine at a concentration (0.7 mmol/dL) similar to that which blocked 5-HT4 receptors reduced serotonin-evoked ileal contractions by 35% confirming its action as a serotonin receptor antagonist. A related amino acid, L-leucine did not modify serotonin-elicited contractions showing the specificity of L-lysine actions."

Hi Haidut; I thought Cypro was a 5HT2C antagonist? Or is it an inverse agonist? How would that supress dopamine? I don't know a lot about it myself, but I have experience taking Valdoxan (which was the best anti-depressant I ever sampled). My understanding of Valdoxan, was that continual antagonism at 5HT2C causes the receptor to downregulate further. The more it downregulates, the more tonic dopamine which is created. It's melatonergic properties were a pain in the ****, but the drug was awesome for my (then) anhedonia. Would you mind explaining how cyproheptadine supresses dopamine through 5HT2C antogonism? I couldn't find any posts you might have made on the subject through a search on the forum.

I am not sure either, someone else said that on the forum and we have had several threads lately that say cypro gives them the zombie feeling due to reduced dopamine. However, looking at the wikipedia page for cypro I see that it is an actual antagonist on some dopamine "receptors" and if it does reduce dopamine the antagonism on the dopamine receptors is probably the reason. Finally, if something were to reduce dopamine I'd expect it to increase prolactin, which cypro does NOT do. Search the forum for "cyproheptadine dopamin" and "cyproheptadine prolactin" for more info.
 

Peata

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Maybe the zombie feeling was from the lingering sedation. if so, i find that it goes away with regular use.
 

Peata

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kineticz said:
Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me

on the topic of serotonin, i was interested in your remark to someone on another thread: You have very prolactin and noradrenaline colour to your eyes. I notice when my serotonin and dopamine are high, when I'm happy, my eyes turn blue. When I'm chronically depleted, defensive, pessimistic, let down by people to do the simplest of tasks (which is common in business), my eye colour seems to turn hazel/green.

just interested in the idea that serotonin (or is it dopamine, or both) affects eye color. when i took cyproheptadine in the fall, i thought i noticed something different. this was before i had the idea it could affect eye color in any way. it was after i noticed that i tried to find something about it online. and when i stopped taking it, also thought i noticed a difference (back to how they looked before). now that i've been on it two weeks again, i feel it is causing the same subtle effect to my eyes.

So i was interested that you noticed it in yourself as well. Although did you mean when serotonin is low and dopamine is high?
 

narouz

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haidut said:
and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

haidut-
This is a walloping dose, of course.
Do you have any idea if it would be more effective to take that all at once,
or spread out throughout the day...?

With your serotonin-depleting method
you advise having a protein meal with the aminos you recommend.
Would this line of thinking apply to lysine, do you think?
 

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