energy leak

if you care what other people think of you, they partially own you

many the fool are parasited on by thoughts of others, which in fact originated from the parasitical thoughts of others

Awesome

Not sure about the mechanism, but there is something about poor health that causes you to turn to others for help (perhaps one of the functions of serotonin). I have seen it many times that when most persons are put in a very stressful situation, they have 2 choices: either physically remove themselves from the situation and people involved, or otherwise, accept change and take on a responsive attitude and "bend like water" to the will of those inflicting the stress.

It seems, in my experience, that most older people with health problems have taken the choice of removing themselves from everything and live in near total isolation.

I use this as a signal for my own health: if I feel very independent and that other people are fun but unnecessary, then I believe I am in peak health at that moment.

that's highly intelligent, and concurrent with my experience. That's why I make health and lifestyle #1 priority

pboy said:

if you care what other people think of you, they partially own you

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That's why we should not be affected by them.

DarrylC24 said:

pboy said:

if you care what other people think of you, they partially own you

Click to expand...

That's why we should not be affected by them.

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Is it that we choose to not be affected? A personal outlook may make a difference but personally I feel that it's a stress function that makes most of the choice for me. That is, I can intellectually decide that being affected by others is to my detriment, but still feel reliant on their actions while in low energy state.

sm1693 said:

Not sure about the mechanism, but there is something about poor health that causes you to turn to others for help (perhaps one of the functions of serotonin). I have seen it many times that when most persons are put in a very stressful situation, they have 2 choices: either physically remove themselves from the situation and people involved, or otherwise, accept change and take on a responsive attitude and "bend like water" to the will of those inflicting the stress.

It seems, in my experience, that most older people with health problems have taken the choice of removing themselves from everything and live in near total isolation.

I use this as a signal for my own health: if I feel very independent and that other people are fun but unnecessary, then I believe I am in peak health at that moment.

Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense. What happens if a person is able to take themselves away from stressful people but the sensation persists as it's in their energy state? If they can't restore balance energetically, is learned helplessness a probable inevitability? Or is there another option?
I've noticed that painting or drawing for a few hours makes me feel more independent and improves mood; that in some way it mitigates the thoughts I might have of desperately needing social inclusion at that time, as well as negative self talk in general.
This appears to last during that day, such that if I spend the morning effectively creating without procrastination, socializing in the evening is easier and more pleasant, and it's also easier to keep warm. The effects seem to mostly wear off after sleep and then I need to start over the next day.

I wonder how stress pertains to the 'artistic' personality, i.e probably low dopamine/high serotonin, low impulse control, high baseline arousal all arising in childhood in a way that causes habitual creating to become a sort of coping mechanism which then becomes necessary for the person to function ordinarily. I made things constantly when I was a kid, until I stopped making art and starting playing a ton of video games in junior high. This was when my health issues become much more dramatic, bringing a family history of hypothyroidism into the foreground.

Now that I'm really paying attention, it's quite interesting what creating can do to transmute stress that I would otherwise be crushed by (I do have some learned helplessness and stress makes it harder to eat, making it difficult to overcome just with nutrition and good lifestyle). The problem, if you want to describe it as such, is that this stress beast needs to be fed creative expression continuously or things get dark very quickly. The truly driven creative people I know seem to require the work much in the same way that an alcoholic needs his drink. On a few rare occasions after drawing for a few hours I've finished with a almost giddy state of euphoria, that a hidden cache of physical and mental energy has been unlocked and I feel fantastic, like I want to run down the road and bask in the sun, totally in sync with the universe. Doesn't last though.

I've been thinking about how this could evolve from just creative expression. It seems to me that there's a special potential in activities which are done for their own sake, which require single minded focus and often involve a flow state, and allow for a continuous feedback of micro adjustments such is that the energy state of the person is completely in sync with the activity. This seems to also give the mind a break from the heaviness of the self, I often lose myself completely while drawing which feels restorative in itself.
I'm curious what you guys think.

Aspekt said:

I've been thinking about how this could evolve from just creative expression. It seems to me that there's a special potential in activities which are done for their own sake, which require single minded focus and often involve a flow state, and allow for a continuous feedback of micro adjustments such is that the energy state of the person is completely in sync with the activity. This seems to also give the mind a break from the heaviness of the self, I often lose myself completely while drawing which feels restorative in itself.
I'm curious what you guys think.

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This is what I used to believe, but no longer. 2 things made me change my view:

1. I used to be a pretty serious rock climber and therefore I knew a lot of rock climbers. The stereotype of climbers is that they are easy-going and carefree, but in my experience, I have found that this is not true with the climbers that climb often and stick with it over long periods of time. These long-term climbers (just a guess) are, like me, probably high in serotonin. Serotonin, of course, deadens the effects of the other positive hormones (T3, preg, dopa) and therefore, these climbers are almost forced by their physiology to keep engaging in this extreme activity that almost always guarantees a serious hormonal rush. The hormones will increase as the amount of danger the climber is in increases.

So, I would argue that these guys only have to engage in this "flow" activity because they are physiologically "broken." (of course, I don't mean to discount other benefits of the activity, like camaraderie, and exploration of beautiful places...)

2. My personal experience over the last 6 months says otherwise. I have been deeply immersed in the so-called "flow" while doing something as mundane as taking out the garbage. I have been unable to recreate this 24-7, but I now have no doubt that it's a realistic goal to shoot for.

sm1693 said:

Aspekt said:

I've been thinking about how this could evolve from just creative expression. It seems to me that there's a special potential in activities which are done for their own sake, which require single minded focus and often involve a flow state, and allow for a continuous feedback of micro adjustments such is that the energy state of the person is completely in sync with the activity. This seems to also give the mind a break from the heaviness of the self, I often lose myself completely while drawing which feels restorative in itself.
I'm curious what you guys think.

Click to expand...

This is what I used to believe, but no longer. 2 things made me change my view:

1. I used to be a pretty serious rock climber and therefore I knew a lot of rock climbers. The stereotype of climbers is that they are easy-going and carefree, but in my experience, I have found that this is not true with the climbers that climb often and stick with it over long periods of time. These long-term climbers (just a guess) are, like me, probably high in serotonin. Serotonin, of course, deadens the effects of the other positive hormones (T3, preg, dopa) and therefore, these climbers are almost forced by their physiology to keep engaging in this extreme activity that almost always guarantees a serious hormonal rush. The hormones will increase as the amount of danger the climber is in increases.

So, I would argue that these guys only have to engage in this "flow" activity because they are physiologically "broken." (of course, I don't mean to discount other benefits of the activity, like camaraderie, and exploration of beautiful places...)

2. My personal experience over the last 6 months says otherwise. I have been deeply immersed in the so-called "flow" while doing something as mundane as taking out the garbage. I have been unable to recreate this 24-7, but I now have no doubt that it's a realistic goal to shoot for.

Click to expand...

1. I don't think our views are mutually exclusive here, in that I feel that this tendency to require a particular flow state through a physical activity (I'm including art in this) is basically a conditioned response to high stress levels. I experience art making as having a sense that it's taking something from me (stress) but not adding much of a temporary boost of excitement or pleasure in the way that thrill seeking might, at least generally. Sometimes I feel boosted but not in a speedy way.
Creative expression is often seen as having some sort of noble purpose to society, but I think it serves the one who is making the most. I would agree that needing to do this sort of expression compulsively, in a way that actually relieves discomfort, might be a form of physiological imbalance, even when it might not seem as harmful as many typical addictions.
It seems like the thrill seeker wants the intense, more pleasurable experience, in addition to lowering his stress, whereas the visual artist is mainly reducing his mental intensity during the work, and that's what makes it feel good.

2.
I'm a mediator and this flow you're talking is something I can get into intermittently throughout the day- wordlessly perceiving the activity, whatever it might be.

Recently I went on a 10 day Tibetan buddhist meditation retreat, and the intensity of the flow for the first half was enough that my artmaking compulsion evaporated and I could experience immense satisfaction from just breathing and perceiving. After a while though, the low protein and high vegetable meals caught up with my body, I lost my focus and the artmaking compulsion came back. So I see the compulsion to make art as something I could potentially rid myself of if I was able to achieve higher stability of mind.

I don't see these activity based flow states as bad per se, but I would like to not have to rely on them to feel ok, and there's an inbuilt inferiority compared with being able to access flow at any moment in any activity (I find this is greatly facilitated by high C02, which rises after meditating).

Where I'm at with the art making is almost like a workout, in the sense that I just need to do it for a while, say an hour or two, and then I can touch flow more easily regardless of what I'm doing. It seems to at this stage, have a higher potential to unblock me, provided I feed the beast for a while every day.
So I guess right now I see meditative flow and creative expression as complementary, and hopefully I can one day improve my thyroid enough that I can just flow without the need for an activity to facilitate it.

Aspekt said:

Where I'm at with the art making is almost like a workout, in the sense that I just need to do it for a while, say an hour or two, and then I can touch flow more easily regardless of what I'm doing. It seems to at this stage, have a higher potential to unblock me, provided I feed the beast for a while every day.
So I guess right now I see meditative flow and creative expression as complementary, and hopefully I can one day improve my thyroid enough that I can just flow without the need for an activity to facilitate it.

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Yes, you raise some excellent points here and we seem to be in agreement.

I would hazard a guess that the more subdued personality types (serotoniney) are drawn to shock their system into life from extreme sports, whereas, the more manic, tormented (estrogeney) type of people are drawn to more calming artistic endeavors.

Just speaking in generalities of course.