Gaining Muscle Olympic Weightlifting With Peat-style Nutrition

Velve921

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cantstoppeating said:
managing said:
I would love for somebody to post an adequate explanation of that. When I was low carb (not that I am recommending it) I could eat fat all day and lose weight. Peating, I've gained both fat and muscle.

I realize that low carbing makes lipolysis the default form of energy. But peat makes sugar the source of energy. When low carbing, "excess" fat didn't seem to matter. Yet when Peating, excess sugar (I presume) seems to turn into fat.

Yet everybody here and on Peatarian says to cut the fat to lose fat. This just seems too simplistic. There is an underlying explanation of raypeatian subtlimnity. I just don't know what it is.

How does fat consumption lead to fat loss when low carbing, yet when peating (many say) fat consumption leads to fat gain.

This is something I struggle to understand too. It seems no one has a clear explanation other than "restore metabolism and then you'll be thin".

As far as I understand low carbing switches our cell's fuel source from sugar to fat. Peating switching them to sugar. Since fatloss occurs through a caloric deficit (either we burn more or we consume less or a combination), Peat style fatloss is to eat enough sugar to keep metabolic rate high (i.e. temps at 98.6f), yet reduce fat to limit calories as it's the most calorically dense macronutrient and least likely to cause problems when drastically reduced.

But since our cells are running on sugar, that calorie deficit is balanced by the burning of excess fat at rest within, supposedly, the cells in our skeletal muscles.

Other than that, the goal of excess fat loss while Peating seems to be the big elephant in the room that no one wants to address.

I can sense your frustration as I've felt the same at times. I've been Peating for 9 months and only in the last 2 have I started to see fat loss.

I'm not a chemist or nutritionist but here would be my understanding in simple terms:

Do to the inefficiency of the metabolism to run its proper course we have to take it back to infancy almost. If you took a baby in the womb and its mother ate a Peatarian lifestyle and then continued to feed the baby the same foods after birth then I would say most likely that baby would grow up to be quite Leeann and probably ripped. Now take an older middle aged being and try to do the same thing only now you are also dealing with damage done to the body...it is quite difficult to get that instant lean physique which most of the population isn't willing to wait. So to answer your question...years from now after Peating for extended years I will have the leanness that I had before I started only I'll be functioning like a mad man with little to no disorders. Some people may have instant fat loss but the majority it could take years based in everything Ive learned so far.
 

managing

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Are you connecting the time frame to PUFA depletion? I've heard "4 years" thrown around a lot for that.
 

Zachs

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There is a thread around here somewhere saying it can be done in as little as 30 days.
 

Velve921

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Yes, I believe the PUFA release is a factor...but I do not think its the whole story. There are many processes in the body that I believe takes time to normalize in order to see fat loss. This is just my opinion.
 
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chispas

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I've been thinking about how my body has been reacting to this regime, and there's no doubt I'm getting both fatter and more muscular simultaneously (as well as stronger in quite a short period of time). I'm thinking (in terms of my personal situation), a few changes could be made to achieve an optimal Peat-inspired diet.

I think protein should stay high - 150 - 200g. I am concerned about ammonia generation after my body reaches nitrogen balance, and starts to dispel the excess protein. There is a good page about this on Paul Jaminet's PHD diet website, where he argues there is no need to eat in excess of 125 - 150g of protein. I still find his testimony hard not to accept - his conclusion seems understandable. Perhaps the protein in milk is special in some way that digesting 200g of milk protein is handled in a more appreciable way. Not sure. Any thoughts are appreciated.

The other thought is: how should fructose and glucose be eaten optimally in the day, or around training? Obviously, eating majority fructose has clear advantages over majority glucose (starch in particular), Peat has made that clear. I wonder though, fructose is great before training - there is a significant stress-relief feeling that I notice very clearly. On glucose however, it must be the presence of insulin that makes me feel subtly off-kilter. I always thought it was normal, because I thought training at weightlifting was supposed to be hard - but it's simply not there when fructose is powering the body. I do notice it is important to ingest a bit of protein before training - maybe 20 - 30g. But it is more important to maintain the sugar through the workout - even if it's just sugar in water.

So this brings me to infer that glucose must be appropriate to eat at some other time in the day. Or, should glucose be continually complemented with fructose at every meal, no matter what? Maybe glucose should be the primary carbohydrate in the evening as the body readies itself for sleep and fasting? Perhaps the calorie load is simply unnecessary in my case - I'm eating good food, getting good energy, feeling great, and eating too much in the process. I need to maybe back down the food quantity to achieve strong muscle gains without too much fat. I have to also admit, my body is almost always very warm: I am 37.6 - 38 degrees most of the time, and my pulse fluctuates between 70 - 80 beats/minute.

Sorry for the long post.
 
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chispas

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Sorry everyone, didn't realise there was a page two of this thread. I agree, low fat intake must aid fat loss. Thing is, drinking good quality milk means consuming quite a bit of fat. Even with skim, it adds up fast.

Maybe I should follow some of the nutritional recommendations of the CIA torture report - sounds exotic!
 

managing

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I can't vouch for other low carbers, but I can tell you that I lost fat while increasing caloric intake. And dramatically increasing fat intake. Again, I am NOT advocating this. But can anybody explain that?
 

johns74

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managing said:
Are you connecting the time frame to PUFA depletion? I've heard "4 years" thrown around a lot for that.

I think people should do blood tests and see how it's going. There are free fatty acids tests available that tell you how much PUFA, SFA, or MUFA you have in your blood.

In the Burr experiments, they used serum iodine number as a measure of unsaturation. I don't know though if such test is available easily, don't think so.

They should also take vitamin E to feel the benefits of lower PUFA immediately.
 

PeatMonster

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In my experience, weight lifting makes nutritional requirements much less predictable. Trying to achieve a specific formula day to day has always been detrimental for me. Instead, trusting my appetite has induced the mythological simultaneous strength gains and fat loss. I sometimes eat more than 300 grams of protein a day. Other days its more like 100 grams. Restricting fat hasn't done my weight loss any favors. I keep both skim milk and whole milk on hand. If I want whole milk I assume I need more fat, but often I don't desire it and skim milk suffices.
 

Velve921

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Just to add to my results:

I use to be 178 @ 7% body fat - lots of meat, coconut oil, some veges, coffee, fish oil, some fruit, lots of fasting. 200p, 100g fat, 50g carb. (Rough estimate but Im sure you get general idea)

For last 9 months - now sit at 209 @ 16 body fat - peatarian foods - 500g of carb, 180g of protein, 50g of fat. I've started leaning down in last 2 months...was upto 21% body fat. I've always been a fattier looking guy and could never lose fat on high carbs...now I can. So back to the confusion about fat loss...it just takes time for the bodys metabolism to correct itself and then the fat comes back off. It'll take me many more months and maybe even years to get back down to 7% but I strongly believe it can be done!
 
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You don't realize how much sugar you usually burn, and how many tissues PREFER sugar. Of course if you get into ketosis the fat will go quickly. All usual systems get overrun. Now look at the amount of people for which this simple equation goes wrong. Search the forum, it's why they're here in the first place. And of course if you're trying to lower free fatty acids with supplements and everything eating fat is a stupid thing to do. This guy eats very little fat for example:

 
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Velve921

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Wait wait, woah! When did Robb Wolf start changing his thoughts on carbs? Where has he written about this?
 
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chispas

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I did my comp, and added a few kilos to all lifts (very close to getting 70kg c&j).

I've been eating lots of fruit, and drinking juice, but it seems fat is really starting to pile on. I'm 84kg at the moment, and I have lost sight of my abs.

There's hardly any fat I am eating any more. I only drink skim milk, no nuts, no coconut oil. I am getting stronger, but I don't look as good as I did. I feel OK, except I get thirsty before bed sometimes.
 

sheldonkreger

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Hi Chispas,

I started Olympic lifting three years ago at the age of 22 (I'm now 25). I am 5 feet 11 inches, male. I started out at just 65kg bodyweight and am now up to roughly 87kg. I have been as heavy as 92kg (just a few weeks ago). All my lifts obviously went up, the clearest example being my original 60kg front squat, which is now at 122kg.

I'm certainly one of the weakest guys at my gym, but I also started out very weak. That's a different conversation, though.

Over the last three years I have experimented with many diets. The only way I have been able to get stronger is to eat large quantities of meat, fat, and carbs. Caloric intake is THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN STRENGTH GAINS, assuming you are training with adequate volume. I tried different balances of macros, nothing changed. The one variable that has mattered for me is caloric intake. CALORIC INTAKE. CALORIC INTAKE! Not enough calories = no gains. Surplus calories = gains. END OF STORY (at least for me).

I have put on a substantial amount of body fat. However, I have found that it is very easy to lose body fat by creating a caloric deficit. Again, doesn't matter how I create the deficit, I always lose body fat. In deficit, my training sessions are very bad (I feel weak), but that's OK. Once I hit my desired bodyweight through caloric restriction, and THEN start to eat normally again, my strength is restored, even though I'm skinnier.

My goal is to level off at 85kg by the summer, at less than 15% body fat. To do this, I use intermittent fasting for 2-3 weeks at a time, then take 1-2 weeks to eat normally (without a deficit) to help reduce loss of muscle. I'm having a lot of success working this way.

So, that's my basic strategy.

Reading through your posts, I have a few suggestions for you to consider. First of all, remember, CALORIC INTAKE WILL DETERMINE YOUR RESULTS. You MUST have a caloric surplus to become stronger. Everything else is basically minor details. For this reason, I don't recommend trying to reduce fat, carbs, or anything else for that matter.

Second, keep in mind that training high volume is also very important. My coach pushed me and I learned that my work capacity is MUCH higher than I ever realized - and that has made a HUGE difference.

Finally, as you gain weight, it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to maintain and improve your flexibility and mobility. If you become too tight and tense to move quickly, Olympic lifts will stop going up, even if your strength goes up. Furthermore, you will repeatedly injure yourself. Finally, you will also likely live in varying levels of pain if you lose your range of motion and develop extreme muscular tension. I see this ALL THE TIME in other strength sports like powerlifting and strong man.

Let me know if you have questions.

-sheldon
 

aquaman

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Ewlevy1 said:
Is there anyone on here whose been peating for 3 years plus and are avid weigh lifters or olympic lifters? If so then physically what have been major results? Muscle gain? Fat loss? Both?

I'm curious as I've been Peating for almost 9 months now...took 7 months off fro, any physical activity to heal...I've put on about 31lbs (fat and muscle). I just to do a Paleo low carb diet and could never put on muscle! Now I can put muscle but have also put on a lot of fat. In 3-5 years time does it seem likely I will lean back down?

DIet:

Thyroid - 2 grains of dessicated a day
Pregenenolone - 1-2 pinches a week
Niacinamide - 666mg a day
Red Light Therapy - 60 minutes a day
Epsom salt baths - 3-4 a week - 3lbs each bath
20grams of amino acids mixed in with my shake during workout (milk, oj, gelatin, salt)
2 tbsp of baking soda a day..1 pre workout and 1 post workout

1/2 gallon of fat free milk a day
1 pint of ice cream a day

1/2 gallon of OJ a day
1 carrot a day
1 potato a day
40 grams of gelatin a day
2 eggs a day
1-2 oz of cheese a day
5oz of Liver once a week
5 oz of shrimp 2x a week
5oz of cod once a week
8oz of pasteur raised pork a week
8oz of grassfed beef a week
8oz of chicken a week
1 oz of butter a day
Only using coconut oil when I cook now.
1 cantalope a week

A gallon of fluid a day. When hypothyroid it's not going to work.

Also pint of ice cream a day = you will get fat.
 
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managing said:
I would love for somebody to post an adequate explanation of that. When I was low carb (not that I am recommending it) I could eat fat all day and lose weight. Peating, I've gained both fat and muscle.

I realize that low carbing makes lipolysis the default form of energy. But peat makes sugar the source of energy. When low carbing, "excess" fat didn't seem to matter. Yet when Peating, excess sugar (I presume) seems to turn into fat.

Yet everybody here and on Peatarian says to cut the fat to lose fat. This just seems too simplistic. There is an underlying explanation of raypeatian subtlimnity. I just don't know what it is.

How does fat consumption lead to fat loss when low carbing, yet when peating (many say) fat consumption leads to fat gain.

I think Peat feels that storing fat is the body's response to cortisol and glucose.

Consider that most hypothyroid people keep their metabolism up through cortisol. When you add glucose to that cortisol, you store fat. Consider too, that the folks here may be weight lifting, which could create cortisol at high levels, and you can understand why their fat increases in the presence of glucose.

To your question, Managing: on a low carb diet there is no glucose to combine with the cortisol and cause fat, but lots of other way worse things are happening, when fatty acids and your tissue proteins are being used as fuel!

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to gain fat (or to avoid losing fat if you have any to lose), if ALL you eat is fructose (no glucose or starch), casein and coconut/MCT oil. At least, I can't, and I eat 4,500-6,000 calories a day! These three foods seem to be "uncouplers", meaning that when they are consumed the body somehow generates more energy than the calories they contain! They actually make you hungrier!

Of course, I also have a raging metabolism (5-6% CO2 levels) and don't do any stressful exercise, which I guess might create cortisol/lactic acid, and then fat.

If you do want to gain muscle without fat, even without exercise, the simple Peatian trick is to keep having casein all the time, literally, even once an hour. Don't starve yourself for two hours or more, and then have a big meal. It will be too late: Your muscles start to waste away within about 90 minutes of being deprived of casein.
 

tara

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Hi Ewlevy, the only part I'm going to comment on is this:

Ewlevy1 said:
2 tbsp of baking soda a day..1 pre workout and 1 post workout

This may serve you well, but for some people there is a risk of milk alkali syndrome. Here is one thread on it; I think there may be one or two more. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2701. Whether adding baking soda is helpful or harmful probably depends on the system pH.

I would guess that the risk could be mitigated by monitoring UpH now and then. Peat has said ideal 24 hour UpH should be ~6.3-6.7. (Blood regulates itself in the range 7.35-7.45 as long as there are adequate buffers in the rest of the system.) pH test strips are easy to use.
 

superhuman

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visionofstrength said:
managing said:
I would love for somebody to post an adequate explanation of that. When I was low carb (not that I am recommending it) I could eat fat all day and lose weight. Peating, I've gained both fat and muscle.

I realize that low carbing makes lipolysis the default form of energy. But peat makes sugar the source of energy. When low carbing, "excess" fat didn't seem to matter. Yet when Peating, excess sugar (I presume) seems to turn into fat.

Yet everybody here and on Peatarian says to cut the fat to lose fat. This just seems too simplistic. There is an underlying explanation of raypeatian subtlimnity. I just don't know what it is.

How does fat consumption lead to fat loss when low carbing, yet when peating (many say) fat consumption leads to fat gain.

I think Peat feels that storing fat is the body's response to cortisol and glucose.

Consider that most hypothyroid people keep their metabolism up through cortisol. When you add glucose to that cortisol, you store fat. Consider too, that the folks here may be weight lifting, which could create cortisol at high levels, and you can understand why their fat increases in the presence of glucose.

To your question, Managing: on a low carb diet there is no glucose to combine with the cortisol and cause fat, but lots of other way worse things are happening, when fatty acids and your tissue proteins are being used as fuel!

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to gain fat (or to avoid losing fat if you have any to lose), if ALL you eat is fructose (no glucose or starch), casein and coconut/MCT oil. At least, I can't, and I eat 4,500-6,000 calories a day! These three foods seem to be "uncouplers", meaning that when they are consumed the body somehow generates more energy than the calories they contain! They actually make you hungrier!

Of course, I also have a raging metabolism (5-6% CO2 levels) and don't do any stressful exercise, which I guess might create cortisol/lactic acid, and then fat.

If you do want to gain muscle without fat, even without exercise, the simple Peatian trick is to keep having casein all the time, literally, even once an hour. Don't starve yourself for two hours or more, and then have a big meal. It will be too late: Your muscles start to waste away within about 90 minutes of being deprived of casein.

i love all your information.

But muscles does not waste away after being deprived for 90 minutes of casein. Ive seen ALOT of big lean buys with alot of muscles that does fast for 12-16 hours everyday.

In terms of calories, i have not seen anyone here or studies that have managed to raise metabolic rate alot with food. Co, Calcium, protein are great for increasing metabolic rate but im not sure it raises it that much.

But yeah would be cool to hear more in terms of your food intake for the day and supplement protocol and how many calories you consume, your height, weight, bodyfat % etc.
 
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visionofstrength said:
managing said:
I would love for somebody to post an adequate explanation of that. When I was low carb (not that I am recommending it) I could eat fat all day and lose weight. Peating, I've gained both fat and muscle.

I realize that low carbing makes lipolysis the default form of energy. But peat makes sugar the source of energy. When low carbing, "excess" fat didn't seem to matter. Yet when Peating, excess sugar (I presume) seems to turn into fat.

Yet everybody here and on Peatarian says to cut the fat to lose fat. This just seems too simplistic. There is an underlying explanation of raypeatian subtlimnity. I just don't know what it is.

How does fat consumption lead to fat loss when low carbing, yet when peating (many say) fat consumption leads to fat gain.

I think Peat feels that storing fat is the body's response to cortisol and glucose.

Consider that most hypothyroid people keep their metabolism up through cortisol. When you add glucose to that cortisol, you store fat. Consider too, that the folks here may be weight lifting, which could create cortisol at high levels, and you can understand why their fat increases in the presence of glucose.

To your question, Managing: on a low carb diet there is no glucose to combine with the cortisol and cause fat, but lots of other way worse things are happening, when fatty acids and your tissue proteins are being used as fuel!

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to gain fat (or to avoid losing fat if you have any to lose), if ALL you eat is fructose (no glucose or starch), casein and coconut/MCT oil. At least, I can't, and I eat 4,500-6,000 calories a day! These three foods seem to be "uncouplers", meaning that when they are consumed the body somehow generates more energy than the calories they contain! They actually make you hungrier!

Of course, I also have a raging metabolism (5-6% CO2 levels) and don't do any stressful exercise, which I guess might create cortisol/lactic acid, and then fat.

If you do want to gain muscle without fat, even without exercise, the simple Peatian trick is to keep having casein all the time, literally, even once an hour. Don't starve yourself for two hours or more, and then have a big meal. It will be too late: Your muscles start to waste away within about 90 minutes of being deprived of casein.

You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

Care to post a picture of your waist line? No need to show your face, that way you'll stay annonymous.
 
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cantstoppeating said:
You claim to eat 4-6k calories while staying <10% body fat all the while being sedentary -- crediting "Peat's uncouplers" and high C02 levels.

Care to post a picture of your waist line? No need to show your face, that way you'll stay annonymous.
I use this calculator
http://www.free-online-calculator-use.c ... calculator

I am 72 inches in height, have a 16 inch neck and a 31-32 inch waist. I guess I could do pics of me measuring my waist and neck with the tape measure number showing (and maybe a current newspaper)?

But I don't know if this is helpful, since I don't want anyone to think that losing lean body mass by "dieting" is any kind of a healthy goal! It is the opposite of healthy!!!

In the Peatian perspective, if you simply increase your metabolism until it measures 5-6% exhaled CO2, then you will lose fat -- but not lean body mass!.

And if before your metabolism reaches this level, you somehow lose weight by cutting calories or some other kind of dangerous nonsense, then you are actually hurting yourself through starvation! And yes, you know who I mean, desperate-to-loss-weight-at-all-costs forum members!

So please don't focus on losing weight or my waistline. That will come, I promise! Just make it your goal to boost your metabolism to 5-6% exhaled CO2 and all the other good things, including fat loss, will follow.
 

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