Calcium Supplements, Heart Disease & Egg Shells

yoshiesque

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Hi Everyone,

I am in the process of transitioning to Ray Peat Diet, from a Paleo style diet recommended by Chris Kresser. It involves starchy carbs. I am now eating fruits. All I have left is milk/dairy to add, which is hard atm due to intolerance. But I am working on that.

The problem I have atm is the possible dangers of using egg shell as a calcium supplement. Please refer to the link below, which shows the dangers of calcium supplements. Now it doesnt address egg shells, but it does address all forms of calcium supplements available in the market. The studies show that it increases the risk of heart disease, and one of the possible theories is because the large release of calcium in one go is the problem, where as in dairy, its at a slower release.

My question is this, can we say the same thing about egg shells? Is it just as bad as other calcium supplements? If not, what proof do we have, besides Ray Peat simply recommending that it is a safe source of calcium?


Chris Kresser - Calcium Supplements: Why You Should Think Twice
 

Blossom

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I have personally used the homemade eggshell powder without incident for 7 months now. I relied more on it in the beginning as I was getting used to dairy again. I never use more than 1/4 teaspoon of the eggshell powder at once and have it with food so it is better tolerated and absorbed. I think there is a lot of misinformation circulating about calcium. There is no need to take mega doses since the body can't utilize over around 500mg at one time. I thought I'd just share my personal experience with eggshell calcium in case it might help.
 

jyb

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I'm also careful not to take more than 1/4 teaspoon here and then, when I have less dairy. I think a good rule of thumb would be to use in a day the equivalent amount of calcium you'd find in 2 quarts of milk. I also avoid combining calcium and baking soda, I use salt instead, in case the claim that it can cause milk-alkali syndrome is true.
 

Mittir

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The author is an acupunturist. It is always a bad idea to get science from
non-science people. They are major source of misinformation.
It takes decades of learning and training to become a decent scientist.
They have to learn biology,physics, math, chemistry, statistics just to be there.
There are good scientists and bad scientists. But there are people who think
they can google up some studies , read the abstract and then start
teaching people what is the right answer. This is very irresponsible.
MD's are not trained to be scientist either. You will be able to find more accurate information
if you look for calcium related studies from non-medical journals.
 

sladerunner69

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yoshiesque said:
post 40899 Hi Everyone,

I am in the process of transitioning to Ray Peat Diet, from a Paleo style diet recommended by Chris Kresser. It involves starchy carbs. I am now eating fruits. All I have left is milk/dairy to add, which is hard atm due to intolerance. But I am working on that.

The problem I have atm is the possible dangers of using egg shell as a calcium supplement. Please refer to the link below, which shows the dangers of calcium supplements. Now it doesnt address egg shells, but it does address all forms of calcium supplements available in the market. The studies show that it increases the risk of heart disease, and one of the possible theories is because the large release of calcium in one go is the problem, where as in dairy, its at a slower release.

My question is this, can we say the same thing about egg shells? Is it just as bad as other calcium supplements? If not, what proof do we have, besides Ray Peat simply recommending that it is a safe source of calcium?


Chris Kresser - Calcium Supplements: Why You Should Think Twice


This psuedo-science is probably just a simple extrapolation from the knowledge that calcium, cholesterol, and saturated fat combine to "clog" arteries. Nothing to worry about in the context of a healthy metabolism but for many people, over time, calcification of the arteries does happen in a high PUFA/ high stress hormone, low testosterone context.
 
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yoshiesque

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sladerunner69 said:
his psuedo-science is probably just a simple extrapolation from the knowledge that calcium, cholesterol, and saturated fat combine to "clog" arteries. Nothing to worry about in the context of a healthy metabolism but for many people, over time, calcification of the arteries does happen in a high PUFA/ high stress hormone, low testosterone context.


Thats true. But recently a friend of mine got in contact with Chris Masterjohn, who also btw is big believer in carbon dioxide being important to health. He is well respected by Danny Roddy because he is more open minded. Anyway he basically said that the Ray Peat diet is okay but its better to get calcium from dairy rather than supplements like eggshells.

Thoughts?
 

tara

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yoshiesque said:
post 107707 Anyway he basically said that the Ray Peat diet is okay but its better to get calcium from dairy rather than supplements like eggshells.
I think Peat would agree - eggshells (or next best oystershell) are a backup if you can't get enough calcium from milk and cheese for some reason.
 
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yoshiesque

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yeah, unfortunately im dairy intolerant.

now if i eat eggshells thats fine, but whats always on the back of my mind is - how long until i possibly clog my arteries from calcium? if it happens at all that is.
 

Dean

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I wonder if there is anything you can do/take to make it less likely the eggshell calcium would end up in the tissues? A simultaneous dose of thorne liquid vitamin k? estroban?
 

sladerunner69

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yoshiesque said:
post 107707
sladerunner69 said:
his psuedo-science is probably just a simple extrapolation from the knowledge that calcium, cholesterol, and saturated fat combine to "clog" arteries. Nothing to worry about in the context of a healthy metabolism but for many people, over time, calcification of the arteries does happen in a high PUFA/ high stress hormone, low testosterone context.


Thats true. But recently a friend of mine got in contact with Chris Masterjohn, who also btw is big believer in carbon dioxide being important to health. He is well respected by Danny Roddy because he is more open minded. Anyway he basically said that the Ray Peat diet is okay but its better to get calcium from dairy rather than supplements like eggshells.

Thoughts?

Does he suggest that consuming eggshells is risky because the particulates could get stuck in the blood vessels? I remember there was some concern about it around here some months back and someone subsequently did the math and demonstrated it was more than likely a none-issue. Anyways I don't consume eggshells my self, although I know people who do. There are cultures, like the turkish or samoans, who consume full shells/bones as part of a meal, and have never had a problem with cardiovascular disease (until the introduction of large-scale vegetable oil production/use.)
 
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Derek

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yoshiesque said:
Now it doesnt address egg shells, but it does address all forms of calcium supplements available in the market. The studies show that it increases the risk of heart disease, and one of the possible theories is because the large release of calcium in one go is the problem, where as in dairy, its at a slower release.

My question is this, can we say the same thing about egg shells? Is it just as bad as other calcium supplements? If not, what proof do we have, besides Ray Peat simply recommending that it is a safe source of calcium?

Eggshells are not the same as calcium supplements. It is digested slowly unlike supplements. The inner membrane/skin you find inside the eggshell is composed of glycine; so it is like gelatin in that in binds the particulate matter (calcium carbonate) and slowly digests it. That being said I would never recommend egg shell or oyster shell calcium because I haven't heard many positive things from people who have used them. If you can't tolerate dairy I would recommend well cooked leafy greens. One head of Bok Choy has 950mg calcium. One head might seem like a lot but when you boil or steam it, it cooks down to almost nothing.

Also, another important point to understand is that it's not really dietary calcium that gives strong bones, it's C02/optimal thyroid function. Dietary Zinc is way more important for strong bones than is dietary calcium, why? Because Zinc is pro thyroid.

Also, adequate fat soluble vitamins are more important for bone health than calcium; they also reduce your need for calcium as well. Maybe easier to just focus on that instead!
 

tara

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yoshiesque said:
post 107719 yeah, unfortunately im dairy intolerant.
Me too. I'm supplementing 1/4tsp oyster shell once or twice a day, and hoping it does more good than harm to vascular system and skeleton, etc. I also supplement magnesium and a little D3 and K2 most days, which I'm hoping will work with the calcium.

I think one of Peat's points is that low dietary calcium tends to promote high blood levels of calcium. And this is more of a risk than eating higher dietary calcium, which should help lower blood calcium and soft-tissue calcification.

Derek said:
post 107793 Also, another important point to understand is that it's not really dietary calcium that gives strong bones, it's C02/optimal thyroid function. Dietary Zinc is way more important for strong bones than is dietary calcium, why? Because Zinc is pro thyroid.
I agree that CO2 and other factors are important for making good use of the calcium we have, but we do need to get some regular dietary calcium too, I think?
 
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Derek

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tara said:
I agree that CO2 and other factors are important for making good use of the calcium we have, but we do need to get some regular dietary calcium too, I think?

Yes that's why I recommended Dairy, and if not tolerated; well cooked leafy greens.
 

tara

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Derek said:
post 107853
tara said:
I agree that CO2 and other factors are important for making good use of the calcium we have, but we do need to get some regular dietary calcium too, I think?

Yes that's why I recommended Dairy, and if not tolerated; well cooked leafy greens.

I do eat well cooked greens most days mostly in soup, and I do think they contribute some useful calcium and other minerals.
But there are also some down sides to eating the massive amounts of greens one would have to eat to get up to even Peat's minimum recommendations (~1200mg), let alone enough to balance the phosphorus we tend to get from meat if we don't tolerate much dairy. Even if we could all source and afford a suitable variety of them. I'm not up for eating that much leafy greens every day at this stage.

1 cup spinach ~250mg calcium*.
1 cup cooked chard ~100mg calcium*
280g broccoli ~110 mg calcium*
* and that's assuming the soil they are grown in is adequate

Have you read Peat's article on who defines food? http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml
 
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yoshiesque

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Derek said:
Eggshells are not the same as calcium supplements. It is digested slowly unlike supplements. The inner membrane/skin you find inside the eggshell is composed of glycine; so it is like gelatin in that in binds the particulate matter (calcium carbonate) and slowly digests it.

This sounds very plausible but thats all it is unless you can really prove it scientifically. Statements like this can be misleading because the plausibility in it usually makes people believe its true.

But its not a fact. This implies that the small amount of glycine is enough to slow down the calcium. How do you know its enough (if its even true in the first place)? And the inner membrane is just attached to it. If that is all you need to slow down calcium, then I could probably just add gelatin to my calcium supplements and be fine.

Anyway, this calcium supplement case I think is still a bit undecided. I am only concerned because Chris Masterjohn mentioned it. He is very intelligent and agrees with a lot of RP stuff.
 
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yoshiesque

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tara said:
1 cup spinach ~250mg calcium*.
1 cup cooked chard ~100mg calcium*
280g broccoli ~110 mg calcium*
* and that's assuming the soil they are grown in is adequate

Yeah thats the problem, you dont know how much calcium is really there and it most likely varies by quite a bit. Also theres no way im gonna waste time eating several cups of that vege crap haha.

Tbh I think yoghurt is a great source. 100g and you got 200mg of calcium. I dont notice any issues so far with lactic acid and I know Andrew Kim includes that in his diet too. I consume 200g a day.

Also have you tried parmesan cheese? I find that works well for my digestion and 100g has 1g of calcium. You could just try eating 25-50g if it doesnt work.
 
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Derek

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yoshiesque said:
post 107891
Derek said:
Eggshells are not the same as calcium supplements. It is digested slowly unlike supplements. The inner membrane/skin you find inside the eggshell is composed of glycine; so it is like gelatin in that in binds the particulate matter (calcium carbonate) and slowly digests it.

This sounds very plausible but thats all it is unless you can really prove it scientifically. Statements like this can be misleading because the plausibility in it usually makes people believe its true.

But its not a fact. This implies that the small amount of glycine is enough to slow down the calcium. How do you know its enough (if its even true in the first place)? And the inner membrane is just attached to it. If that is all you need to slow down calcium, then I could probably just add gelatin to my calcium supplements and be fine.

Anyway, this calcium supplement case I think is still a bit undecided. I am only concerned because Chris Masterjohn mentioned it. He is very intelligent and agrees with a lot of RP stuff.

So you won't believe anything someone says unless they can provide a scientific study to back it up? Scientific studies are not facts either. I thought it was common knowledge here that gelatin slows down digestion! Most people who take isolated Glycine usually get constipation! That's because it slows down digestion. Gelatin forms a gluey mass with the foods eaten and binds/carries it through the gastrointestinal tract. Some people who take eggshell get pieces of eggshell in their stools.

You probably could just add gelatin to your calcium supplements, yes I think that would achieve the same benefits.
 
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Derek

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yoshiesque said:
post 107892
tara said:
1 cup spinach ~250mg calcium*.
1 cup cooked chard ~100mg calcium*
280g broccoli ~110 mg calcium*
* and that's assuming the soil they are grown in is adequate

Yeah thats the problem, you dont know how much calcium is really there and it most likely varies by quite a bit. Also theres no way im gonna waste time eating several cups of that vege crap haha.

Tbh I think yoghurt is a great source. 100g and you got 200mg of calcium. I dont notice any issues so far with lactic acid and I know Andrew Kim includes that in his diet too. I consume 200g a day.

Also have you tried parmesan cheese? I find that works well for my digestion and 100g has 1g of calcium. You could just try eating 25-50g if it doesnt work.

You said you were having a hard time with dairy in the OP so I just tried to give you a healthy alternative for calcium. Now you appear to not have an issue with it, or at least not with yogurt or cheese? That's fine then, those are great foods and great sources of calcium.
 
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Giraffe

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yoshiesque said:
post 40899 The problem I have atm is the possible dangers of using egg shell as a calcium supplement. Please refer to the link below, which shows the dangers of calcium supplements. Now it doesnt address egg shells, but it does address all forms of calcium supplements available in the market. The studies show that it increases the risk of heart disease, and one of the possible theories is because the large release of calcium in one go is the problem, where as in dairy, its at a slower release.
Did you have a look at the studies Chris Kresser linked? I had a quick glance at the EPIC-Heidelberg study. It reports multivariate hazard ratios. Among the many things adjustments are made for are physical activity and BMI. For me such data are a black box. What if the assumptions made are wrong?

You probably know what Ray Peat thinks about "aerobic" exercise. You may have also have come across him advising to increase calcium intake to help weight management.

I get most of my calcium from food anyway. When I supplement eggshell calcium I always have it with food. Even if I was relying more on eggshell calcium I would not be too concerned because of the conclusions of studies that report multivariate HRs only.
 
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tara

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yoshiesque said:
post 107892
tara said:
1 cup spinach ~250mg calcium*.
1 cup cooked chard ~100mg calcium*
280g broccoli ~110 mg calcium*
* and that's assuming the soil they are grown in is adequate

Yeah thats the problem, you dont know how much calcium is really there and it most likely varies by quite a bit. Also theres no way im gonna waste time eating several cups of that vege crap haha.

Tbh I think yoghurt is a great source. 100g and you got 200mg of calcium. I dont notice any issues so far with lactic acid and I know Andrew Kim includes that in his diet too. I consume 200g a day.

Also have you tried parmesan cheese? I find that works well for my digestion and 100g has 1g of calcium. You could just try eating 25-50g if it doesnt work.

Thanks for the ideas, but I'm afraid that so far whenever I experiment with more dairy, I come out regretting it, once I can get enough of a glimpse through the fog in my head to stop. I found a delicious greek yogurt last week, enjoyed that very much for 3 days, then the horrible symptoms caught up with me. And any more than a little aged cheese seems to be a more direct migraine trigger. I seem to get away with a ~100-200ml fresh milk regularly when I'm well and a little milk in prepared foods like chocolate, and none when I'm unwell. It's an intolerance I've developed as an adult - I grew up with lots of milk and cheese. Hoping to eventually restore my ability to use it.
 
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