Peat in College

cliffinspired · Mar 28, 2014

Hey guys,

I'm very interested in Ray Peat's work, although I'm at a college cafeteria. I have access to conventional milk, sugar, OJ, eggs in unlimited amounts. Would it be possible to devise a plan without things like shellfish and liver?

Thanks in advance, appreciate it. :)

Mittir · Mar 28, 2014

Welcome to the forum
If you check cronometer.com you will see that you can
get almost all the nutrients, even the ones that are found in
seafood and liver, from following foods
2 quarts of whole milk
2 eggs
4 cups of OJ
RP recommends seafood mainly for iodine and selenium.
Egg yolk and Milk both usually have good amount of iodine and selenium.
Farmers usually add supplemental vitamins, minerals, iodine, selenium
and other trace minerals to the animal feeds.
Excess Fluid
That are about 3 quarts of fluid in that list. RP mentioned that excess fluid can worsen
thyroid problem in hypothyroid people. If you have really healthy thyroid
you can possibly get away with this amount of fluid. Extra salt and
alkaline minerals ( sodium. potassium, calcium, magnesium) can help with
managing excess fluid. Physical activity and surrounding temperature
also play role in amount of fluid intake.
You will possibly need supplement for vitamin E,
vitamin K ( some type of gut bacteria also make vitamin K )
and Niacinamide /coffee. Grass-fed cow's milk has lot more vitamin K.
You may need a good source of Manganese .
You can add some gelatin in the form of jello or gummy bear to
balance excess tryptophan in the diet.
You can also try low fat versions of milk in cronometer to reduce
PUFA intake.

cliffinspired · Mar 28, 2014

Hey Mittir,

Thanks for the response, appreciate it. :) Would conventional milk and eggs be okay? Not ideal obviously but would it RP approved? Or am I better off not even trying to follow the diet.

Filip1993 · Mar 28, 2014

If you tolerate it, go for it imo.

Mittir · Mar 28, 2014

He thinks grass fed cow's milk and pastured organic eggs are better than
commercial products, but he is ok with both commercial milk and eggs.
He himself drinks commercial milk, but does not like commercial eggs.
If you eat liver weekly you can eat fewer eggs.
If a brand of milk causes gut irritations, one can experiment
with other brands.This depends on particular cow's gut bacteria and the kind of food they ate.
If a grass fed cow eats allergenic leaves this can cause problem in people drinking that milk.
Eggs are also high in PUFA,but very rich in vitamins and minerals.
It is a good idea to limit PUFA intake as low as possible.
if milk is a problem for you, then you can try cheese, fish, meat,
gelatine and potato juice as protein source. With meat and fish you
have to add some gelatin and calcium supplement to balance
excess tryptophan and phosphorus.
Here is a link general dietary guidelines
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20
Link to compilation of email advice from RP
http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges

Blossom · Mar 28, 2014

I cast my vote for following a Peat inspired approach to the best of your ability. We all have to start somewhere and I think that is better than not trying the approach at all. Most people seem to fine tune things as they go based on feedback from the body anyway so if it were me I'd start with what is available and continue to study Peat and learn even more. All the links provided by Mittir are a huge help in getting started. Best of luck to you.

cliffinspired · Mar 28, 2014

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it. :) Great community here.

So basically I have access to these RP foods on a daily basis (all non-organic, conventional):
milk
butter
ice cream
cheese
eggs
potatoes
carrots
brocolli
tomatoes
peppers
coconut oil
OJ
mixed melons
oranges
coffee

So I can get most of my protein from 2 eggs / day and 1-2L of skim or whole milk. Also from cheese and maybe some meat?

Is 2 conventional eggs/day too much? Some posts say 1-2 a day and some say 1-2 a week?

Should I drink whole or skim milk if it is conventional?

I sometimes have access to some conventional farm raised fish so I will go for that. Is chicken ever okay, or only every 7-10 days? How about some beef if I eat it with gelatin?

Do you guys get supplemental gelatin from Amazon, and if so can you recommend any brand? Also is 5-10g per meal a good recommendation? Is it possible to eat too much easily?

I'm a little confused on where to add actual sugar to things? Just if I can't get enough calories from other stuff? If I'm having coffee and need some sugar to prevent the stress response? In my milk? On most days do RPers have supplemental sugar? Or is fruit/OJ much superior?

Also is OJ from Dole okay? That is what we have in the cafeteria.

Thanks so much guys.

Cheers!

Filip1993 · Mar 28, 2014

From personal experience, try to implement peats ideas slowly. It can take some time for your body to adjust to sugar, milk, coffee etc.

Blossom · Mar 28, 2014

I personally like the cronometer nutritional tracker and think utilizing it can only benefit your situation. I really like the Great Lakes beef gelatin personally. I've only used the red can but I know others like the green can better.

charlie · Mar 28, 2014

cliffinspired, :welcome

Really great advice in this thread so not much for me too add. I will say that you are definitely on the right track through. Oh and if you can try to get some wild caught shellfish at least once a week. I usually have a shrimp fest on the weekends. :)

Take care and see you around. :hattip

Mittir · Mar 28, 2014

There is not any official " Ray Peat Diet". It is simply a collection of
nutritional information. Low PUFA, low iron, low soluble fiber, low starch,
moderate protein, moderate to high carb and adequate vitamins and minerals.
It easily fits into RDA with few exceptions.
You can skip egg if you are getting weekly liver.
Since you are not eating liver , egg can be an important part
of nutrient source. I believe If you use cronometer you will be able to figure out
a balanced diet without egg. Milk, Egg and liver are major source of vitamin A.
Sweet ripe fruits are ideal source of carbohydrate.
If one chose to eat table sugar he needs to get all the required
vitamins and minerals from rest of the diet.
Great lake hydrolysate one is easier to digest for many.
If you can digest regular gelatin without problem then it is a matter of
personal choice. An adult person can get a large part of protein from
gelatin. Craving can be a good guide for nutrient need.

Kray · Mar 29, 2014

Mittir said:
Welcome to the forum
If you check cronometer.com you will see that you can
get almost all the nutrients, even the ones that are found in
seafood and liver, from following foods
2 quarts of whole milk
2 eggs
4 cups of OJ
RP recommends seafood mainly for iodine and selenium.
Egg yolk and Milk both usually have good amount of iodine and selenium.
Farmers usually add supplemental vitamins, minerals, iodine, selenium
and other trace minerals to the animal feeds.
Excess Fluid
That are about 3 quarts of fluid in that list. RP mentioned that excess fluid can worsen
thyroid problem in hypothyroid people. If you have really healthy thyroid
you can possibly get away with this amount of fluid. Extra salt and
alkaline minerals ( sodium. potassium, calcium, magnesium) can help with
managing excess fluid. Physical activity and surrounding temperature
also play role in amount of fluid intake.
You will possibly need supplement for vitamin E,
vitamin K ( some type of gut bacteria also make vitamin K )
and Niacinamide /coffee. Grass-fed cow's milk has lot more vitamin K.
You may need a good source of Manganese .
You can add some gelatin in the form of jello or gummy bear to
balance excess tryptophan in the diet.
You can also try low fat versions of milk in cronometer to reduce
PUFA intake.

I see red meat isn't on this list. Doesn't Peat include some sort of red meat in his diet, either lamb, buffalo, or beef, regularly, maybe once a day? I usually have one of these everyday (not all 3, but 1 of them) about 3 oz. Do you think that's too much iron?

narouz · Mar 29, 2014

classicallady said:
Mittir said:

Welcome to the forum
If you check cronometer.com you will see that you can
get almost all the nutrients, even the ones that are found in
seafood and liver, from following foods
2 quarts of whole milk
2 eggs
4 cups of OJ
RP recommends seafood mainly for iodine and selenium.
Egg yolk and Milk both usually have good amount of iodine and selenium.
Farmers usually add supplemental vitamins, minerals, iodine, selenium
and other trace minerals to the animal feeds.
Excess Fluid
That are about 3 quarts of fluid in that list. RP mentioned that excess fluid can worsen
thyroid problem in hypothyroid people. If you have really healthy thyroid
you can possibly get away with this amount of fluid. Extra salt and
alkaline minerals ( sodium. potassium, calcium, magnesium) can help with
managing excess fluid. Physical activity and surrounding temperature
also play role in amount of fluid intake.
You will possibly need supplement for vitamin E,
vitamin K ( some type of gut bacteria also make vitamin K )
and Niacinamide /coffee. Grass-fed cow's milk has lot more vitamin K.
You may need a good source of Manganese .
You can add some gelatin in the form of jello or gummy bear to
balance excess tryptophan in the diet.
You can also try low fat versions of milk in cronometer to reduce
PUFA intake.

Click to expand...

I see red meat isn't on this list. Doesn't Peat include some sort of red meat in his diet, either lamb, buffalo, or beef, regularly, maybe once a day? I usually have one of these everyday (not all 3, but 1 of them) about 3 oz. Do you think that's too much iron?

Not Mittir, but I am re-posting a quote Blossom put up on another thread
as one way of addressing the PeatMeat question.
From Peat:

"The interlocking fundamental features of cell excitation/relaxation, electrical potential, lactic acid/carbon dioxide, water retention/water loss, salt regulation, pH and energy level, allow us to visualize in a coherent way the biological meaning of stress and adaptation. Interacting with those physical-chemical events, there are many layers of biochemical and physiological processes that reinforce or modify them, including regulatory systems such as hormones and other biochemical signaling substances, nutritional adequacy, and the type of fuel used. The safest and most effective interventions will be those which support our basic organizational fields (sodium, carbon dioxide, balanced proteins, fruits, thyroid, pregnenolone for example) and don't introduce distortions, as some drugs, foods,hormones and supplements do."

I highlighted "balanced protein."
I believe Peat would consider meat, muscle meat that is, even from ruminants,
to be an imbalanced protein.
He has discussed how adding some gelatin to a meal containing meat
can better balance the amino acid profile.
I think two of the bad aminos, tryptophan and cysteine, are present in meat in high ratios.

Another bad thing about meat from a Peat perspective
is the calcium:phosphate ratio--very high in phosphate,
which can cause a lot of problems.

Peat has also discussed in at least one interview
an indian tribe (not sure what kind of indian, but somehow I have in my memory
that it is maybe a South American indian tribe or people)
which had a diet based upon meat and cooked greens.
Peat didn't say the diet was optimal,
but he did say that, relatively speaking, it was very healthy.
The greens (and broth from them) are very high in calcium,
which balance the meat's high phosphate.

Peat has spoken of the kinds of (ruminant) meat typically eaten in developed countries
as "refined foods,"
in the sense that they have been stripped of their older, more healthy context,
where humans ate ALL of the animal--
connective tissue, bone, eyes, thyroid, liver, etc.

At the same time, you're right to note that Peat does say he eats meat pretty regularly.
I bet he eats the less "fancy" cuts containing more connective tissue (becomes gelatin),
eats it with some gelatin,
and doesn't eat oranges/juice at the same time--the C increases iron retention,
another downside of meat.
And he has said he tries to have coffee with meat, to block the high iron content of meat.

I envision typical, developed world, ruminant meat cuts
as belonging on the periphery of an optimal Peat diet,
and not even "necessary" at all,
especially if one gets liver, gelatin, eggs, milk....

Kray · Mar 29, 2014

Not Mittir, but I am re-posting a quote Blossom put up on another thread
as one way of addressing the PeatMeat question.
From Peat:

"The interlocking fundamental features of cell excitation/relaxation, electrical potential, lactic acid/carbon dioxide, water retention/water loss, salt regulation, pH and energy level, allow us to visualize in a coherent way the biological meaning of stress and adaptation. Interacting with those physical-chemical events, there are many layers of biochemical and physiological processes that reinforce or modify them, including regulatory systems such as hormones and other biochemical signaling substances, nutritional adequacy, and the type of fuel used. The safest and most effective interventions will be those which support our basic organizational fields (sodium, carbon dioxide, balanced proteins, fruits, thyroid, pregnenolone for example) and don't introduce distortions, as some drugs, foods,hormones and supplements do."

I highlighted "balanced protein."
I believe Peat would consider meat, muscle meat that is, even from ruminants,
to be an imbalanced protein.
He has discussed how adding some gelatin to a meal containing meat
can better balance the amino acid profile.
I think two of the bad aminos, tryptophan and cysteine, are present in meat in high ratios.

Another bad thing about meat from a Peat perspective
is the calcium:phosphate ratio--very high in phosphate,
which can cause a lot of problems.

Peat has also discussed in at least one interview
an indian tribe (not sure what kind of indian, but somehow I have in my memory
that it is maybe a South American indian tribe or people)
which had a diet based upon meat and cooked greens.
Peat didn't say the diet was optimal,
but he did say that, relatively speaking, it was very healthy.
The greens (and broth from them) are very high in calcium,
which balance the meat's high phosphate.

Peat has spoken of the kinds of (ruminant) meat typically eaten in developed countries
as "refined foods,"
in the sense that they have been stripped of their older, more healthy context,
where humans ate ALL of the animal--
connective tissue, bone, eyes, thyroid, liver, etc.

At the same time, you're right to note that Peat does say he eats meat pretty regularly.
I bet he eats the less "fancy" cuts containing more connective tissue (becomes gelatin),
eats it with some gelatin,
and doesn't eat oranges/juice at the same time--the C increases iron retention,
another downside of meat.
And he has said he tries to have coffee with meat, to block the high iron content of meat.

I envision typical, developed world, ruminant meat cuts
as belonging on the periphery of an optimal Peat diet,
and not even "necessary" at all,
especially if one gets liver, gelatin, eggs, milk....[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback, narouz. Do you have meat in your diet, just curious? How often and how much gelatin do you consume on a regular basis?

narouz · Mar 29, 2014

@CL--
I'm erratic in that regard.
Sometimes I hardly eat any, sometimes I have some almost every day.

I'm not describing my diet as exemplary Peat.
Just what I do. :)

When I'm getting a lot of gelatin and liver,
I don't seem to crave meat much.

Also, when, for various reasons,
I'm not managing my hypothyroidism well
(not taking the right amount of thyroid, weird unknown factors
interfering with my conversion of thyroid, etc),
and am in a hypothyroid state,
then I think I crave meat more.

Also, I must confess, sometimes I just crave to EAT something.
Something not cheese. :lol:

Meat is tempting then.

I think I'm figuring out a good thing to satisfy my meat cravings
and yet not screw up my Peat diet too much:
Oxtail French Onion Soup with Kale (Broth).

Kray · Mar 29, 2014

narouz said:
@CL--
I'm erratic in that regard.
Sometimes I hardly eat any, sometimes I have some almost every day.

I'm not describing my diet as exemplary Peat.
Just what I do. :)

When I'm getting a lot of gelatin and liver,
I don't seem to crave meat much.

Also, when, for various reasons,
I'm not managing my hypothyroidism well
(not taking the right amount of thyroid, weird unknown factors
interfering with my conversion of thyroid, etc),
and am in a hypothyroid state,
then I think I crave meat more.

Also, I must confess, sometimes I just crave to EAT something.
Something not cheese.
Meat is tempting then.

I think I'm figuring out a good thing to satisfy my meat cravings
and yet not screw up my Peat diet too much:
Oxtail French Onion Soup with Kale (Broth).

Sounds nice, recipe you could share? :)

narouz · Mar 29, 2014

CL-
It is yet to be perfected,
but here's as far as I've gotten.

In a big pot you simmer for about 2&1/2 hours many oxtails in a lot of water.
Remove oxtails and save them for eating.
Add a bunch of kale and cook about an hour.
Remove the kale and throw it away if you're a True Peater
(or consume them if you are a Lapsed Peater).
In a big skillet saute some onions in butter until soft.
Spices up to you.
Put them in the pot of oxtail broth.

That's as far as I've gotten,
because it's been forever since the one time I made French Onion Soup.

But really, since I'd skip the bread,
I think the next step would just be melting a lot of mozzarella
(or is it provolone?) on top of
a bowl of the above broth,
and maybe adding some red wine or whatever one does to make FOS.... :roll:

fyo · Mar 29, 2014

Oysters and liver are okay to have every other week, or once a week. Can you hit up an oyster bar or something like that? Shrimp's a good alternative too. Also you possibly could get a market to steam the liver for you. I think it'd be worth the effort, because there are important nutrients in those that are not so common elsewhere, i.e. copper, selenium, iodine.

Kray · Mar 29, 2014

narouz said:
CL-
It is yet to be perfected,
but here's as far as I've gotten.

In a big pot you simmer for about 2&1/2 hours many oxtails in a lot of water.
Remove oxtails and save them for eating.
Add a bunch of kale and cook about an hour.
Remove the kale and throw it away if you're a True Peater
(or consume them if you are a Lapsed Peater).
In a big skillet saute some onions in butter until soft.
Spices up to you.
Put them in the pot of oxtail broth.

That's as far as I've gotten,
because it's been forever since the one time I made French Onion Soup.

But really, since I'd skip the bread,
I think the next step would just be melting a lot of mozzarella
(or is it provolone?) on top of
a bowl of the above broth,
and maybe adding some red wine or whatever one does to make FOS....

Nice! I love the kale tale, too funny! But, truly it sounds like a great recipe, and you sound like a good cook! I will share with my house chefs and explore oxtails next time at the store. We need to be adding those good vegetable broths that I've been too lazy about. I think either cheese would be fine. And the wine-- I think that sounds really tasty-- and don't forget to add some to the soup!

Thanks, Narouz

Infinite Fred · Apr 1, 2014

Came to this thread thinking it was about how Ray was in college. Haha, what a bummer

Seriously though, great topic and comments! Eating Peaty in college can be quite challenging at times but the benefits is well worth it!

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