Muscle Cramping - Cynomel

Katty

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I've been getting more muscle tightness and muscle pain all over my body. I think it might have started, or at least gotten worse, when switching from NDT to T4/T3 (about 8 weeks ago). For the past 2 days I switched from generic T3 (my Rx which I can't refill) to cynomel ordered from mexicandrugstore. Woke up in middle of night, can't go back to sleep- assuming my adrenaline is running... though strangely, my pulse is low for me (only 84ish, and I'm usually 90). Hands are a bit chilly so I'm pretty sure this is an adrenaline thing.
I did a google search and some people complain of back cramping with T4. But mine seems to have increased when switching T3 brands. Not sure if this means the new T3 is too potent, or not potent enough.
Anyone have any thoughts? I'm not sure how to tweak things. I'm on 46.8 mcg of T4 and 12.5 mcg of T3- which is a 3.75:1 ratio. When my T4 was a bit higher (around 56) I was feeling depressed. When I lowered it, the depression seemed to go away... until I switched T3 brands 2 days ago, and I've been feeling much more emotional (crying at things I wouldn't usually) and not as energetic for usual tasks.
 

HDD

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Magnesium?

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4351&p=52284#p52284

PEAT: It's very common for pre-puberty people to have leg pains that they call growing pains, and those people are typically a little bit low thyroid, and the textbooks used to show little kids with horribly swollen calf muscles that looked like they were muscle bound; but it was the accumulation of muco-polysaccharides swelling the muscle up causing great pain, cramping and so on, and in old people who are hypothyroid, something very similar happens, but it includes degeneration of the blood vessels to some extent, and you mentioned the chelation plus magnesium.

When you take thyroid, it energizes your cells to make ATP, and it happens that ATP binds magnesium, so you don't really take up magnesium into the cell very efficiently unless you have adequate thyroid. And when you are low in thyroid, you tend to lose magnesium during stress, and chronically that leads to a crampy, inefficient condition where you waste oxygen, producing your energy, but you can't retain it because of the lack of magnesium.

So in many situations, magnesium imitates thyroid function, but the two together really are simply energizing the tissue; and you can go from crampy legs, or many old people get "jumpy legs" -- a funny sensation that makes their legs kick when they try to go to sleep -- you can go from that hyperactivity of the legs to many other conditions including heart rhythm problems, insomnia, muscle pains in general, many states that are considered degenerative diseases, but are simply low thyroid/low magnesium states that prevent efficient energy production.
 
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Katty

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Thanks for the response! It's more muscle tightness than muscle cramping, though I suppose magnesium could be indicated with each. I've been spraying my skin with mag oil for a long time. And I occasionally do Epsom foot baths. If I haven't taken a foot bath in a long time, the bath helps. But if I do them more often, I stop feeling the benefit and I actually start to get calf cramping. Mag oil sometimes causes calf cramping too. My husband (who isn't really Peaty) also gets calf cramps from foot baths. Seems so weird because everyone is supposedly deficient, yet the baths cause cramping for both of us.

I really think the new cynomel is pushing me too hard or something. I have periods where I get quite warm, but it burns off pretty quickly and then I'm a bit chilly. Haven't been chilly in some time. Perhaps my body just doesn't like the cynomel.
 

aguilaroja

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Katty said:
I've been getting more muscle tightness and muscle pain all over my body. I think it might have started, or at least gotten worse, when switching from NDT to T4/T3 (about 8 weeks ago). For the past 2 days I switched from generic T3 (my Rx which I can't refill) to cynomel ordered from mexicandrugstore.

I would suggest switching off the Cynomel to a different product to see if it makes a difference.

I am hesitant to mention this, since many people have been helped by the Mexican synthetic thyroid products. But I had a very similar experience well over a dozen years ago, with the Cynomel brand. I had taken versions of Cynoplus and Cynomel previous to that episode with good results.

I developed severe aching and cramping leg muscles, becoming widespread. It became extremely disabling within a few days. I had not change the T4 or T3 amount, only the product. Pulse, temperature and thyroid blood tests did not change appreciably. I was fatigued for sure, but that may have been due to pain and immobility. The muscle pain persisted at rest and at night. I tried many diet and supplement changes, including adjusting mineral intake (especially magnesium-orally and through epsom salt baths) which provided slight relief. Dr. Peat recommended increased aspirin intake, which WADR provided minimal relief. Though I was athletic at the time, during this I could barely walk a dozen yards without great pain.

I stopped the Cynomel and the leg muscle problems stopped very quickly. No supplementary thyroid was better than this Cynomel reaction, though I otherwise had no "hyperthyroid" symptoms. I subsequently added other forms T3, whether through synthetic (Cytomel) or T4/T3 combinations to good effect.

I repeatedly tried small doses of Cynomel several different times, months and years later, and immediately got brief repeat versions of this issue. Since then, I have always used other supplement forms. While I have experimented with many forms of thyroid augmentation, there have been no significant bad reactions.

I know that some people are helped by Cynoplus and Cynomel, as I was many years ago. In my case, it was almost like an anti-thyroid effect with one version of Cynomel. I otherwise have had no major problems with binders and excipients of medications or nutrients.
"YMMV"
 

aguilaroja

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As haagendazendiane astutely mentions, the alkali/alkali earth mineral metabolism (Magnesium, sodium, calcium, potassium) can certainly be a major factor in muscle cramping/stiffness/pain. Good metabolism is needed for mineral absorption and retention. Some low thyroid people "instinctively" eat a lot of salt to compensate.

In the other direction, adequate Magnesium, sodium & calcium intake supports better metabolic function. As Dr. Peat and others have noted, improved metabolism can also increase nutrient intake requirements accompanying increased convivial activity.

Excuse me that discussing my individual reaction to one batch of one Cynomel version deflected from an important issue.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml

"Other protective effects of increased sodium are that it improves immunity (Junger, et al., 1994), reduces vascular leakiness, and alleviates inflammation (Cara, et al., 1988). All of these effects would tend to protect against the degenerative diseases, including tumors, atherosclerosis, and Alzheimer’s disease. The RAA system appears to be crucially involved in all kinds of sickness and degeneration, but the protective effects of sodium are more basic than just helping to prevent activation of that system.

"A slight decrease in temperature can promote inflammation (Matsui, et al., 2006). The thermogenic substances--dietary protein, sodium, sucrose, thyroid and progesterone--are antiinflammatory for many reasons, but very likely the increased temperature itself is important."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/calcium.shtml

"Many studies have shown that dietary calcium (or vitamin D, which increases calcium absorption) can have very important antiinflammatory effects.
About 25 years ago, David McCarron noticed that the governments data on diet and hypertension showed that the people who ate the most salt had the lowest blood pressure, and those who ate the least salt had the highest pressure. He showed that a calcium deficiency, rather than a sodium excess, was the most likely nutritional explanation for hypertension....."

"One of Selye's colleagues, G. Jasmin, showed that magnesium deficiency causes inflammation. A deficiency of either calcium or magnesium can stimulate the parathyroid glands to produce more hormone (parathyroid hormone, PTH), which increases calcium absorption, but also removes calcium from the bones. This hormone, responding to a dietary calcium or magnesium deficiency, is an important factor in causing cells to take up too much calcium, and its excess is associated with many inflammatory and degenerative diseases."
 
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Katty

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Aguilaroja, thanks for the detailed reply!

Yes, it's hard to tell if the reactions are from the cynomel, or if it's because my minerals aren't balanced. I could switch back to the generic T3 my Dr prescribed... but he only prescribed 10mcg, and I'd like to be taking 12.5 mcg. I can ask if he will increase the dose, but there's no guarantee. Aguilaroja, if you don't mind sharing, how are you able to get other forms of T3?

-Sodium: I haven't been craving salt lately. I salt foods to taste, but rarely crave salt under my tongue between meals. Not sure if I should eat extra anyway.
-Calcium: I take 1/2 tsp egg shell calcium every day, plus I eat greek yogurt and some cheese daily.
-Magnesium: I spray mag oil daily-- hard to say if it's sufficient. I use epsom foot baths too, but they sometimes cause calf cramping. Also, when I take them regularly, they don't seem to give much benefit. Only when I haven't had one in a while do they make me feel relaxed. I made magnesium bicarbonate (milk of magnesia mixed with seltzer)- even a small dose of 100mg made me sleep pretty soundly, but I think it was irritating my stomach. Perhaps I should try an oral magnesium glycerinate supplement.
-Potassium: it's always low on cronometer, but when I drink coconut water, my stools become loose. I thought that might indicate that my body doesn't want more potassium.

I'd love to stay on the cynomel and keep tweaking the minerals, but I feel so bad on it, I don't think I can function.

I'm getting really frustrated. Every time I start to feel a tad better and tweak something, I take 2 steps back and feel worse.
 

aguilaroja

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Katty said:
...it's hard to tell if the reactions are from the cynomel, or if it's because my minerals aren't balanced. I could switch back to the generic T3 my Dr prescribed... but he only prescribed 10mcg, and I'd like to be taking 12.5 mcg....

A quick way to test the equivalence-or-not of the Cynomel would be to switch back to the generic liothyronine and see if the symptoms improve. (I am hoping that the full T3 amount is divided up through the day.) In the short term, the difference between 10 mcg and 12.5 mcg total is hopefully small. If it is important to use the 12.5 mcg, you add a small portion of one of the pills.

Salt or baking soda can be added to a bath or foot bath for additional intake.
 
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Katty

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aguilaroja said:
Katty said:
...it's hard to tell if the reactions are from the cynomel, or if it's because my minerals aren't balanced. I could switch back to the generic T3 my Dr prescribed... but he only prescribed 10mcg, and I'd like to be taking 12.5 mcg....

A quick way to test the equivalence-or-not of the Cynomel would be to switch back to the generic liothyronine and see if the symptoms improve. (I am hoping that the full T3 amount is divided up through the day.) In the short term, the difference between 10 mcg and 12.5 mcg total is hopefully small. If it is important to use the 12.5 mcg, you add a small portion of one of the pills.

Salt or baking soda can be added to a bath or foot bath for additional intake.

I've been doing that with the pills- adding a bit more of one of the pills to get up to 12.5. However, when I do that, I use up the pills more quickly. My prescription ends soon and then I have to go back to the Dr. If he keeps me on the 10mcg, I'll have the same problem and keep running out of pills if I take more than the prescribed dose.

I'm definitely going back to the generic T3 tomorrow. Can't function on the cynomel. (And yes, I take bites of it throughout the day).

I always forget to add the baking soda to the foot bath--- Thanks for the reminder!
 

HDD

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Thought this might be helpful for this thread.

High Metabolism

[on high metabolic rate - very high temps and pulse - which is a result of low thyroid] About your high metabolic rate and high temperature: In my teens and twenties, I needed about 8000 calories per day when I was physically active, about 4000 to 5000 when I was sedentary, but after I took thyroid, I needed only about half as many calories. Thyroid is the basic regulator of blood glucose, and it causes it to be fully oxidized for energy, so that it produces ATP efficiently, on relatively few calories. If blood glucose falls, because it's being used very quickly, the body responds with stress hormones, including glucagon, adrenalin, and cortisol. They cause fat and protein to be burned for energy, while in hypothyroidism, glucose can still be used inefficiently for glycolysis, producing lactic acid, displacing bicarbonate and carbon dioxide. This causes mineral imbalances, with effects including cramps and nerve-muscle tension, which produce heat and waste energy. When you first start taking thyroid again, your tissues will need some extra magnesium, during the time when the dose is increasing, and when the mineral balance is restored your temperature and metabolic rate might decrease a little. Orange juice, milk, and coffee are good for the main minerals, while salting your food to taste.
 
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Katty

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Haagendazendiane said:
Thought this might be helpful for this thread.

High Metabolism

[on high metabolic rate - very high temps and pulse - which is a result of low thyroid] About your high metabolic rate and high temperature: In my teens and twenties, I needed about 8000 calories per day when I was physically active, about 4000 to 5000 when I was sedentary, but after I took thyroid, I needed only about half as many calories. Thyroid is the basic regulator of blood glucose, and it causes it to be fully oxidized for energy, so that it produces ATP efficiently, on relatively few calories. If blood glucose falls, because it's being used very quickly, the body responds with stress hormones, including glucagon, adrenalin, and cortisol. They cause fat and protein to be burned for energy, while in hypothyroidism, glucose can still be used inefficiently for glycolysis, producing lactic acid, displacing bicarbonate and carbon dioxide. This causes mineral imbalances, with effects including cramps and nerve-muscle tension, which produce heat and waste energy. When you first start taking thyroid again, your tissues will need some extra magnesium, during the time when the dose is increasing, and when the mineral balance is restored your temperature and metabolic rate might decrease a little. Orange juice, milk, and coffee are good for the main minerals, while salting your food to taste.

Thanks for posting this! Good to know. I'm still a bit concerned with the cynomel though-- I was on the same dose of the generic, but felt 10 times worse when switching brands (not doses). Granted, maybe the cynomel is just more potent. But I felt really bad on it. But I know I still need to keep in mind that I could increase my minerals... interesting that the metabolic rate drops a bit as your body adjusts to a higher dose.
 

HDD

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I, too, was wondering if the cynomel is more potent. This is another quote to consider from the Peatarian email answers. I am not debating your conclusions but I think the quotes I came across are relevant to the topic in case others are experiencing similar issues.

"There isn't any natural T3 product, in the sense of biologically created, but the activity of T3 is so great that the effective dose, of a few micrograms, couldn't introduce a significant amount of industrial junk; the excipients are the main concern, and whether the people making the tablets understand what they are doing. Cytomel and Cynomel, so far, have been very well made, and there isn't any other T3 product that I trust."
 
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Katty

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Haagendazendiane said:
Thought this might be helpful for this thread.

High Metabolism

[on high metabolic rate - very high temps and pulse - which is a result of low thyroid] About your high metabolic rate and high temperature: In my teens and twenties, I needed about 8000 calories per day when I was physically active, about 4000 to 5000 when I was sedentary, but after I took thyroid, I needed only about half as many calories. Thyroid is the basic regulator of blood glucose, and it causes it to be fully oxidized for energy, so that it produces ATP efficiently, on relatively few calories. If blood glucose falls, because it's being used very quickly, the body responds with stress hormones, including glucagon, adrenalin, and cortisol. They cause fat and protein to be burned for energy, while in hypothyroidism, glucose can still be used inefficiently for glycolysis, producing lactic acid, displacing bicarbonate and carbon dioxide. This causes mineral imbalances, with effects including cramps and nerve-muscle tension, which produce heat and waste energy. When you first start taking thyroid again, your tissues will need some extra magnesium, during the time when the dose is increasing, and when the mineral balance is restored your temperature and metabolic rate might decrease a little. Orange juice, milk, and coffee are good for the main minerals, while salting your food to taste.

I'm guessing this might mean pulse would decrease too? Why do we think that is? The T3 is pushing the body too hard somehow, requiring more minerals, and the mineral depletion causes a dip in metabolism? Or is something else going on?
I switched to cynomel from generic for 3 days, felt horrible-- oddly my pulse dropped to about 82 (which is low for me- I am ALWAYS at 90). I'm back on generic T3 today, but pulse is still low. Seems odd that the T3 would decrease the pulse...
 

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