Very high reverse T3

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Anonymous

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Context:

As you can see from this which I asked on May 28th:

http://peatarian.com/41471/how-can-i-ge ... -in-the-us

I got a real rX from a doctor and I started taking 15mg's which is 1/4 of Armor on June 2nd. I took it after my first meal in the morning. The first benefit I noticed from taking it was the ability to tolerate starch, without causing a blood sugar fluctuation, I also felt warmer, and more energy. I think that is proof that I respond well to Armour. But I think its just that now, my pituitary is "off" thus I need to increase the dose. I did not have to cut the pills as they are already the 1/4 size. I continued to take the one pill, the same way, once a day. I did this all of June, July, and August, and the first week of Sept. Then the other day I noticed that after taking my usually dose, I felt like ***t. Yesterday I decided to wait and see what happens if I skip the dose, and its not good. I don't have hypo symptoms like cold hands and feet, but I have extreme brain fog and I feel like ***t.

According to this woman:

"STICKING WITH TOO LOW A DOSE. For a myriad of reasons, this happens often and will make you feel even more hypo due to feedback loop suppression. Have one of these been true of you?
a) being held on a starting dose longer than two weeks (such as one grain, 1 1/2 grains or less)
b) being bound by the directives of a TSH-obsessed doctor. The TSH lab test only keeps you sick.
c) failing to get a raise of desiccated thyroid until the “next labwork”, which can be weeks and months away
d) following an inaccurate Synthroid-to-Armour type conversion equivalence chart.
e) being afraid to go higher!"

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/mi ... ents-make/

I don't want to continue to take it but I feel like I have to right now because I feel so bad. The weird thing is I slept fine the past two nights, vivid dreams and all, but soon after waking it hits again.

I guess it is not smart to just stop taking thyroid once you have taken it everyday for three months, even if it was a small dose.

I don't want to go to the ER, so I think I will just take 3 of my 15mg pills, which is 45 mgs.

I don't understand how people take such high doses. Isn't that too much T4 at one time?
 

aguilaroja

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wheat&PUFAs said:
...Then the other day I noticed that after taking my usually dose, I felt like s***. Yesterday I decided to wait and see what happens if I skip the dose, and its not good. I don't have hypo symptoms like cold hands and feet, but I have extreme brain fog and I feel like s***....

W&P,

I am sorry things feel bad recently. I am going to speak generally, due to lacking specifics. With respect, it is possible that also with more specifics, more guidance may be needed that is practical on a web forum.

Reading the account, it seems things feel poop-y whether skipping a dose of Armour or soon after taking a dose. It seems thing feel bad enough that going to the E.R. for evaluation has crossed your mind. I can only say that if things feel very bad, you should consult your main doctor and the doctor that prescribed the thyroid dose. And if things are urgent then get urgent care. If brain fog is too much to decide, get family and friends to help you get care.

In addition to brain fog, it would help to know the symptoms/signs/impressions of feeling sh**y are, after the Armour dose or without it.

Have you tracked pulse and temperature before and since starting NDT? Is there adequate protein, salt, nutrients in the diet? What prompted beginning the NDT? Have you tracked low thyroid symptoms and their improvement?

One quarter grain (15 mg) of Armour is a VERY small dose. In some ways, it is encouraging that you noticed any improvement at all previously. Again, since it is a small amount, it is rare someone would need to taper down to stop using it.

Metabolism is sensitive to many factors including food intake, sunlight, social environment, community of friends (or lack there of), sleep, humane and creative work/play activity etc. Those things are rarely constant, so many non-NDT factors could affect the current reduced well-being.

It could be that NDT is useful and the amount is low. 1/4 grain is only going to deliver a small amount of T3 per day, for instance. With little information, it's difficult to guess whether weaning or augmenting NDT might make sense.

I am going to limit commenting on the STTM material. I have read the book and read the site periodically. There's much interesting or commendable material there. Ms. Bowthorpe has been a gallant advocate. Dr. Peat's views have guided my success, and that of my circle, with some different from STTM though sometimes overlapping conclusions. I do not agree with some of the points on the STTM list. I know dozens of people helped by specific points that differ from some STTM list items.

Again, it could be, for STTM or other rationale, that increasing NDT frequency could be helpful in this situation. But background information is lacking for thinking strategically.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

aguilaroja,

Thanks. I am just worried that if I completely stop taking it, I might become very hypo. I am going to get some testing done tomorrow. I will probably just get off of it, and then focus on thyroid function naturally. You bring up some good points. I found a thyroid specialist so we'll see what happens. Thanks.
 

Mittir

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

1/4 th Armour has about 10 mcg of T4 that is about 10 percent of daily
T4 production. I think most likely scenario is that something is blocking the
conversion of T4 to T3 in liver. High cortisol is a common reason.
Hypothyroid people have high cortisol to compensate for low active
thyroid hormone. If you see your total T4 level is normal in blood test then
it would be reasonable to work on increasing liver's efficiency.
Lowering endotoxin with raw carrot salad or bamboo shoot should
improve liver function in a very short period of time.
Then B vitamin especially B1 and B2 with some selenium can make
things better. Some B6 can help lowering estrogen.
For now you can try lot of coffee with milk and sugar
to compensate for lack of thyroid hormone.
Niacinamide 50-100 mg 2-3 times a day with meal can improve
livers ability to store glycogen, which plays a big role in conversion of
T4 to T3. You can increase your sugar intake to lower cortisol, small frequent
meals with some protein and fat is helpful. Adequate protein intake is essential
for proper liver function. You can also increase your T3 production by following
a low tryprophan diet. I think small amount of cyproheptadine ( half to 1 mg) can be helpful
to lower serotonin. Do you follow your nutrient intake in cronometer?
If you post your cronometer sheet that will give a better idea about your diet.
Bag breathing, light therapy and good calcium intake can quickly make things better.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Thanks Mittir.

What do you think about actually stopping the Armour though? Since I only took 1/4, even though it was for three months, should I become hypo if I stop taking it? It doesn't make sense to keep increasing thyroid dosage because you can't keep increasing it forever. I'm talking about what the STTM lady said about ""STICKING WITH TOO LOW A DOSE. For a myriad of reasons, this happens often and will make you feel even more hypo due to feedback loop suppression."

Today I tried upping the dose and I took 30mg at one time, but I didn't feel anything. Is there any real danger to just stop taking thyroid?
 

Mittir

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

I think safer approach is to taper off like they do with Prednisone dosing.
If you are already hypothyroid then 1/4th armour is not insignificant.
One thing can happen here that tablet you are using has lost it's potency
and you are getting hypo symptoms from that.
That STTM comment does not sound logical. You are using Armour, not T4.
That kind of problem happens with T4 only. I use chicken neck soup and or
fish head soup for thyroid hormone and i usually drink that soup before bed.
If i skip it one night i feel cold and clammy the next morning. I think you will
get a better idea about your thyroid need once you get your blood result.
If you are low in T4 and T3 then there is a need for extra T4.
In healthy person T4 is at the lower end of normal and T3 is close to
or higher than upper end of normal range.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

So if I were to taper off then should I cut the 1/4 pill in half since that was what I was taking? But what if you just stooped having that soup altogether for days, would you become actually hyopthyroid because would your pituitary be "suppressed" thus not producing TSH from you taking in the soup daily?
 

Mittir

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

RP has mentioned thyroid takes over quickly and starts secreting hormones as
T4 has longer half life. There is enough time for body to use existing T4
till thyroid gland takes over. My understanding is that works for healthy people.
Since most hypothyroid people have other factors like high PUFA, estrogen
sluggish liver , cortisol blocking thyroid function it may not happen as quickly as it
does for healthy people. Estrogen is the one that blocks thyroid
secretion from thyroid glands. If i stop drinking my thyroid soup
i surely will get back to my previous hyopthyroid state with high TSH, high T4
and low T3 with other hypothyroid symptoms . RP think high TSH is responsible
for many of the symptoms attributed to hypothyroidism.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

It seems that the only real danger of being hypo after stopping any thyroid meds is the risk of being put into a Myxedema Coma. The treatment for this is T3. If I am coming off of NDT, and I feel really bad at some point, taking a very small amount of Cynomel may make me feel better right? I already have plenty of T4 from it building up for months, but if the real problem is Myxedema, then Cynomel can help.
 

Blossom

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wheat&PUFAs said:
It seems that the only real danger of being hypo after stopping any thyroid meds is the risk of being put into a Myxedema Coma. The treatment for this is T3. If I am coming off of NDT, and I feel really bad at some point, taking a very small amount of Cynomel may make me feel better right? I already have plenty of T4 from it building up for months, but if the real problem is Myxedema, then Cynomel can help.
I was glad you didn't go to the ER wheat&pufas! I had a feeling the only thing they would do for you is offer you some unnecessary poisons and send you on your way with a prescription for Prozac. Myxedema coma is pretty severe and I think someone as observant as you would notice something wrong far before you were anywhere near that point. I think your t3 plan sounds excellent.
 

aguilaroja

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wheat&PUFAs said:
It seems that the only real danger of being hypo after stopping any thyroid meds is the risk of being put into a Myxedema Coma....

It is good that you have studied and are aware of the extreme state of myxedema coma. With respect, if things are that severe, one quarter grain of Armour plus or minus is probably a small factor between emergency or not, though it may affect short term "get up and go".

Though there did seem to be a quick response to the initial use of one-quarter grain of Armour, please evaluate the utility of single thyroid increments over a longer period than a day or two, Give thought to using resting pulse and temperature, symptom changes, physical tests, and periodic lab tests as feedback to fine tune things. Different life events, environment, travel, etc. can cause short term fluctuations that make immediate thyroid dose response less clear.

Myxedema is generally used to denote the most severe kinds of low thyroid states. But the process, tendencies, and tissue states seen in the extreme help illustrate the decline when metabolism and thyroid function are low before an emergency is reached.

I am not clear on what different ways you have felt low these past days and months. It might be helpful to catalog these for yourself to help track which factors improve with supports. Some observation may be need to determine the role of nutrient/metabolic supports, such as mentioned by Mittir, and to what extent supplementary thyroid is helpful.
 

Wilfrid

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Do you know someone that could test your achilles tendon reflex?
Are you smoking?
This test may be more accurate and more helpful to evaluate quickly your current thyroid status.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wilfrid,

What does smoking have to do with it? I occasionally use nicotine in different forms.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

I thought I was hypo, but, besides weight gain, no, I did not have any hypo symptoms. I thought taking Armour would be an easy way to lose weight. When I got the rX one of the first things it says on the piece of paper is "This drug is not intended for the treatment of obesity or weight loss." I was foolish. My hands and feet have never been cold, ever. My libido is and always was sky high. Weight gain was because of my own ignorance of eating a high fat diet, both in PUFA and SAFA, including a past of caloric restriction and malnutrition, stress, and being sedentary. I didn't start because of RP, I did it at the will of my own ignorance. I chose to not take my own dietary advice and kept eating a crappy diet.
 

Wilfrid

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wheat&PUFAs said:
Wilfrid,

What does smoking have to do with it? I occasionally use nicotine in different forms.

I read that smoking could give an amplified lecture of the test.
 

Jennifer

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

W&P, out of curiosity, are you still eating a high fruit diet?
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

No, not as much fruit as I would like to.
 

Blossom

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Re: Please help, I feel really bad right now, thyroid troubl

Wheat&PUFAs said:
I thought I was hypo, but, besides weight gain, no, I did not have any hypo symptoms. I thought taking Armour would be an easy way to lose weight. When I got the rX one of the first things it says on the piece of paper is "This drug is not intended for the treatment of obesity or weight loss." I was foolish. My hands and feet have never been cold, ever. My libido is and always was sky high. Weight gain was because of my own ignorance of eating a high fat diet, both in PUFA and SAFA, including a past of caloric restriction and malnutrition, stress, and being sedentary. I didn't start because of RP, I did it at the will of my own ignorance. I chose to not take my own dietary advice and kept eating a crappy diet.
Since you've never had any hypo symptoms I don't think you have to worry about myxedema coma. Monitoring you pulse and temps as aquilaroja suggested is always a good idea in Peat world. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself for past choices. All any of us can do is try to move forward from where we currently are and make the best of it. The great thing about implementing Peat's work is it gives us a chance to create better health than we otherwise might have had. Thyroid seems highly individual. I know for me personally it seems like just when I've got the dosing schedule right within a month or two things start to shift again! I don't blame the thyroid as I think there are many variables but I'm glad for the changes because it signifies an improvement to me. I hope your feeling better. I have a history of calorie restriction, malnutrition and stress too. I'm sure that (and wheat and pufa) was where my wrecked metabolism started in the first place 30 years ago. Hang in there.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Thyroid dosage, Armour thyroid

To everyone:

What labs do you recommend for thyroid?

So far I'm looking at this:

Reverse T3 $89.00

Thyroid Antibodies Panel $88.00

TSH + Thyroxine (T4), Free (Direct) $59.00

T3, total Triiodothyronine $45.00

Total Charge: $281.00
 

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