Balancing Zinc And Copper In The Body

I'm fairly certain that I have too much copper stored in my body and have for most of my life. I have a lot of the classic symptoms for what some alternative health circles call pyroluria. The recommended treatment is zinc and b6. I have definitely noticed that some negative symptoms go away when I eat a pound of beef a day and take a generous amount of B6. I don't really care for eating that much beef daily (for about 30mg of zinc), so I have just begun using a zinc picolinate supplement. I have tried oysters in the past, but they seemed to only increase copper toxicity symptoms, maybe because they also contain a large amount of copper.

What I'm wondering is does anyone think 4 oz. of liver a week (about 11 grams of copper) would interfere and be a negative thing with while trying to build up zinc in my body? Do you think it would be best to drop the liver for now?

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and restored their levels of zinc?

Do you feel worse after eating liver?

I haven't really been doing it consistently lately. But earlier this year I was eating a few cans of oysters a week while having liver about once a week. And that led to insomnia and symptoms of estrogen dominance and low dopamine maybe. I definitely didn't feel good. For about the last month I've been eating a pound of beef a day with no liver or oysters and have noticed zinc related activity starting to increase in my body.

I made some liver pate yesterday and had a small amount this morning and I would say I have felt pretty good since and had an awesome nap today, but I don't know if that's related. I just am liking the trend that's happening with the increased zinc and I don't want to mess it up by blocking it with copper if that's the case.

I read that copper can be eliminated through sweat.

Liver has a huge amount of copper so yes, it will probably interfere. Just stick with Zinc supplement for awhile and see how you feel. Copper is relatively easy to get through a normal diet and there isnt anything in liver thats not available elsewhere if eating a good amount of dairy.

I just looked up a description of symptoms of pyroluria. They mostly looked like the general stress symptoms that seem to show up in relation to lots of deficiencies, including copper deficiency. What are the distinguishing features of pyroluria, that are different from lots of other imbalances/hypothyroid symptoms? I'm wondering about whether I am likely to be low in copper and/or zinc, too. Did you have a test that confirmed high levels of urinary kryptopyrroles? Or what makes you think pyroluria/copper excess/zinc deficiency could be key?
What I read suggested supplementing zinc, b6 and manganese.

I'm not sure I buy the technical explanation for pyroluria. I wouldn't be surprised if the alternative health world is wrong on this one, but there might some truth to it. I think you're right Tara that these symptoms are mostly just the consequence of stress in general. What makes me think that I have had chronic copper excess and zinc deficiency is that ever since puberty I have had a yellowish skin hue (which is different from the rest of my siblings) and developed a couple small patches of vitiligo. My teeth are also very crowded. Psychologically, from my current understanding I would describe myself as chronically having low dopamine (anxious, feeling threatened). I have always had low fairly low appetite. Sperm production and libido is usually low as well.

This all points towards a moderately high zinc deficiency to me. In my adulthood (I'm 29 now), I have definitely noticed that when I eat a high amount of beef that some of these issues get considerably better.

So it seems clear to me that I could use a lot more zinc in my body. What I'm not sure about is if a zinc deficiency is always accompanied by copper excess. Or if you can be deficient in both?

This last spring I decided I was probably deficient in both so I started eating liver weekly and a few cans of oysters per week. It didn't go well. I started getting symptoms of estrogen dominance (water retention, fat distribution change), which have persisted until I started eating a lot of beef lately. This suggests to me that I do have copper excess and zinc is what I should be focusing on.

I suppose it is safe to supplement zinc until my deficiency symptoms are under control and then start adding copper back into my diet and pay attention to how my body reacts.

I have crowded teeth too. It seems to also be associated with deficiency in fat-soluble vitamins, and also with childhood mouth-breathing (hyperventilation).
I'm countering yellow/orange callouses by limiting carotene, and recently supplementing a little B12.
I'm older now, but been greying since 20s, which I associated with copper deficiency.
I have had chronic white flecks in nails, which I heard had to do with zinc deficiency, but not sure if that is correct.
Lots of oysters could be having other effects, like potentially increasing histamine?
When you eat a pound of protein, is that also an increase in protein, or were you eating just as much of other proteins before?
I'm not suggesting you are wrong about your body, just that I'm finding it hard to distinguish by symptoms what my own deficiencies/imbalances may be. Seems like hair or nail analyses may be the most reliable methods, but I don't know how good it is, I'd have to trust someone to interpret it, and I gather it is cumbersome and expensive from where I am.
Currently, I eat a little liver several times a week, and a meal of beef or lamb several times a week. I'm concerned about excess iron, but wanting the copper and zinc and protein. Don't know if this is good or not.

I have seen quite a few people with so called pyroluria improve with b6 and zinc supplementation. But looking at them from a Peat perspective now makes me suspect i was only seeing hypometabolism with all its associated stress hormones, imbalances and lowered absorption issues. As the latter are improved the requirement for b6 and zinc, actually any supplementation really, seems to diminish with more efficient absorption and utilisation. My findings are that b6 and zinc seem helpful until no further progress is made and another part of this intricate balance becomes the rate determining step. At that point reconsider lest deficiency becomes toxicity. In practice this is not always easy since deficiency can mimic excess symptomatically (zinc excess will deliver white flecks as will deficiency in some) and vice versa so it depends where you enter the curve. I am now guided by the body, if there is no improvement quickly, i have likely missed something because even if zinc is needed for example is there the energy to utilise it properly?
There are blood tests for zinc and probably copper by now, not convinced of their accuracy and the simple zinc taste test will vary depending on when it is done during the day.... and hair tests -oh my. The latter take a huge amount of interpretation and careful thought as to whether the results reflect the person, a computer generated result and interpretation cut n paste paragraphs remind me of 'personalised horoscopes' and after so many years looking at the results of hair tests i might just side with the horoscopes! Ok kidding about that, promise, but i would no longer spend money on most of these, especially since one set of tests is like one set of any results.
The other issue wrt copper deficiency and early greying, yes fwiw i agree, plus other signs linked with copper usually laxity of connective tissue, valve and spinal disc prolapse....but aren't most of these also hypometabolism too? So which came first, the copper deficiency or the hypometabolism. Was there a real deficiency, certainly possible or an energy to utilise issue, or both?
I have played around with the tracies for years and the really repeatable results came when i got the adequate carbs, adequate protein, vit a, b vits etc and seemingly all the other major things we do working better. In older people, i think they quite likely have sufficient trace minerals stored to be mineable but no energy spare to access them. I know it is possible to store more than iron in the wrong place but i am not sure the other metals are looked for as readily yet. There also seems to be redundancy built into our systems so that manganese can for example be used for magnesium in a pinch so its more than possible that something could plug the gap temporarily with a frank copper or zinc deficiency, using same electrical charge. Goes wrong with the toxic metals when that happens (lead swapping in for calcium for example) and i always thought it was a size of atom issue (presuming electrical charge was matched) but now vibratory rate and field effects need attention also.
SO fwiw, i would also look at intolerance or digestive issues before trace element loadings, i think histamine or related will cause problems ahead of trace mineral issues. Hopefully your body will tell you. I spent many years looking at the trees and forgetting the wood was there so hope this post is in someway helpful. I am still working on the answers for my questions here....
Sheila

Thanks for the perspective Sheila and Tara. It agrees with my suspicions and line of thinking as well. Since zinc is also involved in stomach acid production it could bring on a lot of other deficiencies, because digestion is sub-optimal. It also has led to chronic under-eating pretty consistently over the last ten years for me.

Pyroluria also sounds a lot like hyperprolactinemia and as I understand can have lots of causes. For me it seems to correlate most with simply under-eating/low absorption, low intake of zinc and calcium. I can easily think back at the last few years and at times when I have had an abundance of calories, protein, sun, and these minerals and I have felt much closer to my ideal.

So, I'm thinking that so called pyroluria really is just a normal zinc and calorie deficiency. Maybe there is some tendency for certain people to develop zinc deficiency, but it seems like it's not that hard to fix.

For now I'm going to drop the liver and keep eating a little beef and supplementing zinc at a reasonable amount while keeping carb calories high. I'll update in a month!

Copper excess is supposed to give estrogen symptoms, so if I had estrogenic symptoms after eating oysters, that might be my conclusion as well.

why do you assume you have too much copper? Copper excess is extremely hard to have happen, its easily controlled, and the body actually runs optimally on much more than the RDA of copper a day. Id be more concerned that most people are deficient. I regularly have consumed multiple 100%'s of the RDA and never had a problem (with copper). I dont think that's your prob. The only perceivable way to get too much besides supplementing or working in a factory or something is if you ate large amounts of liver and oysters every day...you said you think you've had it all most of your life but I highly doubt you've eaten a large amount of those 2 foods every day, especially when you were a kid

Yeah I don't know if I have had copper excess my whole life, but zinc deficiency (to some degree) I'm certain that I have had since at least puberty. I developed vitiligo which is probably a stress symptom of not having enough zinc for the body to produce superoxide dimutase enzyme. It would make sense that the body would have high demands for zinc during puberty and be a likely time that it could become pathologically low. Since adulthood my symptoms aren't that bad, just a tendency to have hyperprolactinemia. Also I've always had a poor sense of smell and taste, which has been another clue. I've never felt very dopamine-ish either (very past oriented).

A lot of sources say that you automatically have copper excess if you are low in zinc. I don't know if that's true, but I definitely feel benefits from taking significantly more than RDA in zinc from food and supplement (maybe a total of 50mg). Sperm production being the most obvious sign.

I don't understand the mechanism, but I think there might be some type of inheritable trait that causes a tendency to be zinc deficient even when eating a normal diet. It seems to run in families. My own family seems to have it. My dad also developed vitiligo and has poor connective tissue. We are also very tall, all of us around 6'6". That may have something to do with the deficiency tendency as well.

I've definitely learned my lesson that oysters and liver are overkill unless your metabolism is very high. Also, to confirm what you say pboy, I noticed that the worst symptoms of high copper diminished within a couple weeks of stopping oysters and liver. The body seemed to self-regulate the best it could once it stopped receiving an excess.

no copper cookware?

I notice more symptoms after liver too.

Brian, what foods are you using to get zinc besides beef? And what kind of zinc supplement are you using?

High calcium intake protects from excess copper, IIRC.

Milk has zinc and little copper, so milk in theory is a good food for excess copper.

Charlie, right now I'm using the zinc picolinate powder from purebulk. It seems to be amplifying the effects of eating beef and now I don't have to eat a whole pound everyday.

johns74, I've never used copper cookware. It's hard for me to keep my metabolism high enough on a high milk intake. However, once I had been doing a Matt Stone type refeed for over a month and then switched to higher milk intake when my metabolism was probably quite high from the excess calories. The milk digested very well and my hyperprolactinemia disappeared quite quickly. My dopamine/serotonin and sex hormones seemed near ideal.

However, this only lasted a few weeks and my metabolism began to tank again. I also didn't really enjoy the practicality and monotony of taking in that much milk, so now I'm trying to do it with more of a high carb starch/fruit approach with a satisfying amount of dairy, meat and eggs. It seems to work well, but I'd like to get prolactin down as low as I did on the high milk diet. A little supplemental zinc seems to nudge it in the right direction. I think some extra supplemental calcium would be helpful too. I'm going to try making calcium bicarbonate water.

Zinc is really hard to get enough of in a RP diet if not eating oysters. Supplementing is a smart idea for males especially. Its one of the few supplements can tell that makes a difference.

johns is right about milk, its got a good amount, enough zinc to cover you pretty much alone, but it does lack copper. I wouldn't worry about trying to lower copper, I don't think that's what it is and you still need a good amount. With poor senses, vitamin A is surprisingly the biggest factor. If significantly heals the senses, even eye sight to a degree. If youre eating liver tho you probably are fine there. Dunno what else to say, I guess just do your best to try to cross reference the things youre eating, sometimes its a mineral or some other factor you might not have initially thought of in those foods, or some kind of balance. Arent oysters a high allergy potential food?

IIRC, Vitamin E reduces prolactin.