Slipped Cervical Discs

Hey there:

I just got an MRI that says I have three slipped cervical discs, one with "osteoarthritic changes." When I hurt myself this last time some very scary things happened to me, such as losing postural stability and eye tracking plus outrageous, outrageous pain. I would wake up in the morning without the ability to use my left hand and for a while really thought I was seriously ill.

I've been doing neuromuscular therapy and bought a traction device I am using. Taking progesterone, pregnenolone, nigella sativa, gelatin, bone broth, extra b vitamins, aspirin about 2 grams a day, hyaluronic acid and just started loading vitamin C. There's some confusion about this since I read that the spine needs copper and C interferes with copper or maybe it's the other way around, can't remember.

Has anyone else had this problem and fixed it on their own? Does Peat mention anything about this? Next stop I guess is spinal surgery, would much much rather avoid.

messtafarian said:

Hey there:

I just got an MRI that says I have three slipped cervical discs, one with "osteoarthritic changes." When I hurt myself this last time some very scary things happened to me, such as losing postural stability and eye tracking plus outrageous, outrageous pain. I would wake up in the morning without the ability to use my left hand and for a while really thought I was seriously ill.

I've been doing neuromuscular therapy and bought a traction device I am using. Taking progesterone, pregnenolone, nigella sativa, gelatin, bone broth, extra b vitamins, aspirin about 2 grams a day, hyaluronic acid and just started loading vitamin C. There's some confusion about this since I read that the spine needs copper and C interferes with copper or maybe it's the other way around, can't remember.

Has anyone else had this problem and fixed it on their own? Does Peat mention anything about this? Next stop I guess is spinal surgery, would much much rather avoid.

Click to expand...

mess-
I've had lower back problems this last year too.
The strange thing about mine is that there seemed to be some non-mechanical cause,
to try to put a label on it.
I have herpes,
and very rarely had outbreaks up until this year.
Then it seemed like I got them constantly.

They affect my lower back dramatically.
I mean, I have had back problems for decades.
And the same nerve pathways that have long been involved in those relatively minor pains
really get inflamed when herpes breaks out.

But then, something else also seemed to happen this last year.
Beyond the herpes back pain.
It was as if some kind of agent--bacteria? fungus?--got into those nerve pathways.
And it was nearly crippling--as you describe your attack.
I've gradually recovered significantly from that strange episode, but not entirely.
Tried a lot of different things--antibiotics, antifungals, dietary adjustments.

A recent study in Denmark (I think) showed that 40% of people
with a certain kind of chronic back pain
could be cured of that pain by 100 days of antibiotics.
The subjects were examined by MRI
and picked because they had that particular kind of back problem.
The study said that those subjects had disk problems
which opened the way for bacteria--
and the study said this common skin bacteria had invaded those cervical areas.
It is the bacteria which commonly causes acne.

Do you have insurance?
I'm wondering how much an MRI would cost.
I know they're very very expensive.

Hi narouz:

I thought I had insurance to cover the MRI but I do not, and it will cost me 400 dollars. I was upset about that but in a way very glad to know the cause of all these symptoms, which have been terrifying. TERRIFYING. I didn't know what to do or what to take or even what doctor in what medical specialty I was supposed to take them all to.

I read something about back pain, slipped discs and bacteria whilst eavesdropping on Longecity; one guy was using something called Thymosin which runs about 700 dollars a bottle.

So much for that. But the bacteria angle is interesting.

Since at one point I thought I had Lyme disease, I did a course of doxycycline which I bought as fish drugs from Ebay. I did feel that when I took it at 400 mg a day some of the "brain symptoms" that accompanied the pain went away. Peat likes doxy because it is immunomodulatory and covers both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, is tame and has few side effects. I had been on antibiotics for a full month so I decided to take a break -- especially now that I am taking prednisone, but as long as you stay out of the sun doxy seems sort of more like a supplement like aspirin in terms of safety.

I ordered pure glycine and another supplement called L-Threonine which is the precursor to glycine. I'm looking into serrapeptase but there's something about it that I can't quite articulate that bothers me. Also taking lots of sugar.

No doctor is going to write a scrip for antibiotics for backpain, so we're somewhat on our own there. If you're interested in American fish drugs, the ones that match the Google pillchecker for doxycline and come in *blisterpacks* were safe and did not poison me :)

mess-
$400 sounds pretty cheap, compared to what I'd been thinking.
Here in US...I doubt it would be that inexpensive (relatively).

Since you have the MRI,
you're in a good position to find whether you fit the diagnostic criteria
of the Denmark test I mentioned earlier.
If you google "Denmark & back pain & antibiotics" or somesuch
you should turn it up.

A couple of other thoughts:
Peat, generally, links back pain to endotoxin.
My gut health has not been good...don't know why, exactly.

In other threads I've wondered about the possible existence of Candida infection
as a possible cause.
I know that Peat seems to poopoo it as a real threat in general,
much as he does Lyme disease:
things it is over-diagnosed and kind of trumped up because of money or bad science, but...
Those who believe they have/have had it say Candida is very tough to get rid of often
because--so the explanation goes--it makes a nearly inpenetrable fortress in the cecum
where it protects itself with biofilms and where oral anti-fungals don't reach.
I've found that notion intriguing
because I had an appendectomy a few years ago.
The appendix is situated right there on the cecum.
So...chronic (fungal?) infection of cecum leading to appendicitis...?

The focus of my back/hip pain is right adjacent to that cecum/ascending colon area, too.

FYI- the cervical discs are located in the base of the skull/ neck area. If your going to take the results to a doctor I'd probably say a neurologist would be the best bet. I'm not necessarily recommending that just saying that is the medical specialty that normally deals with that type of issue because of the nerves. That's a great price for an MRI btw. The last one I had years ago was close to $5,000. It might have been more because it was for my pituitary gland. :?

Vitamin C does inhibit copper absorption.

Narouz, yes, I am in the US; I got the scan from one of those imaging places that offer them to public self-pay clients. You could probably do just as well.

:). I have an appointment with a neurologist on Wednesday, Blossom. I kind of doubt he can do much for me but you really never know.

So Such;

This is what I've been trying to figure out. Does one bomb a cervical disc with Vitamin C or just supplement copper? The internet is a little sketchy on this point.

messtafarian said:

So Such;

This is what I've been trying to figure out. Does one bomb a cervical disc with Vitamin C or just supplement copper? The internet is a little sketchy on this point.

Click to expand...

I have no idea my friend

messtafarian,

There's an extremely efficient ( and cheap) method of fixing vertebral disks ( all of them) by using local subcutaneous shots of isotonic sea water, which will progressively rehydrate the disks and relieve the pinched nerves.

It's been devised by Rene Quinton , a french maverick at the beginning of the last century.

Have a look at this video: it's in french, but you can easily grasp the concept:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McUfEwSYFNM

Burtlancast, that is very interesting, thanks. I was reading today that part of the problem with spinal discs is that they have no blood supply of their own, so how do you get nutrients to them? I've been covering the spot with magnesium, progesterone, copper, all kinds of stuff.

A little scary to try on my own though, goodness. The c5-C6 disc abuts the spinal cord and is giving all kinds of awful effects such as tremor, balance issues, arm numbness; parasthesia, bad things. I'm just as worried about making it worse as I am about making it better.

No wonder you've been suffering. Good to have the new information.
I had a lower back disc prolapse several years ago (long before i heard of Peat). I was in continuous pain, worse at night (osteo said that's because all the joint capsules swell at night), worse for positions that exacerbated the damage (in my case any sitting or forward bending - travelling by car was agony, so I avoided it as much as I could), worse for standing (at its worst I would want to lie down after 10 minutes standing or walking). It eventually resolved itself after several months. I was told this is common - about 80% of disc prolapses recover themselves in a few months, but they don't always fix themselves. Paradoxically, the larger the bulge, the faster they resolve - minor bulges more likely to take a couple of years. Though those discs are not to their previous thickness, I seldom get any symptoms from them.

My understanding of what goes on is as a lay person, not an expert.

My understanding is that if discs are bulging and pressing on nerves, then depending on severity, this can cause first pain, then if pressing harder it can cause numbness, then affect motor nerves and ability to move the muscles they control. How much these all recover varies. In my case, it took a while for the sensitive nerves to calm down after worst of the damage was repaired. I know at least one person who still has numbness in one area after all else has resolved.

Do you know how long since yours were injured?
In terms of recovery, I'd be very cautious about any aggressive manipulations around the cervical spine - you really don't want to make it worse, especially in that area.
If you know where and in which direction the damage is, you may be able to get advice about what postural habits to develop, and particular positions or movements to avoid, so you don't keep redamaging as it tries to heal.
The specialist I saw also said that people who keep moving recover faster, as long as they can avoid the particular positions and movements that apply stress on the joints in the same direction as the injuries.
My impression is that all injuries take extra energy to heal, more than just normal maintenance calories, and have a harder time healing if there is inadequate nutrition. And then particular nutrients, like generous gelatine, are probably helpful.
If their are osteoarthritic changes, I guess that could interfere with healing too. I would guess, but don't know, that attention to calcium metabolism would be relevant for this?

Hi Tara:

I was surfing around and found Paul Jaminet talking about osteoarthritis. His take was sugar and K2, and if arthritis persists or develops, Vitamin A supplementation. He also said something about rice, I think because of the B vitamins.

I am now at the point that I might as well just pack my refrigerator with butter and jello and sit down in front of it.

messtafarian said:

Burtlancast, that is very interesting, thanks. I was reading today that part of the problem with spinal discs is that they have no blood supply of their own, so how do you get nutrients to them? I've been covering the spot with magnesium, progesterone, copper, all kinds of stuff.

A little scary to try on my own though, goodness. The c5-C6 disc abuts the spinal cord and is giving all kinds of awful effects such as tremor, balance issues, arm numbness; parasthesia, bad things. I'm just as worried about making it worse as I am about making it better.

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Spinal disks are made of cartilage, which has poor blood supply, and therefore practically never heals, but keeps on deteriorating.

Cartilages are fed through compression-depression cycles; they are like a sponge that releases their water content when put in compression ( and shrink) , then reabsorb it ( and expand) when the pressure is released.

In the morning, one is always a little taller by one centimeter or so than in the evening, when gravity has caused your disks to lose their water.

Cartilages are fed through the dissolved water substances moving through it. This is why people with knee problems are advised to do cycling, which continuously compresses- releases cartilage and feeds it.

You can use supplements like MSM, hyaluronic acid, etc... to support cartilage repair. Isotonic sea water is extremely efficient.
Very important as well are local muscle contractions preventing the natural movement of vertebral disks; to correct this, you need to reeducate the whole spine, making sure both your right side of your body and left side are used equally.
( for example, someone very right hand orientated playing sports with his right hand will keep his right side contracted and his left side loose, causing disturbances in the spine)

messtafarian said:

Hi Tara:

I was surfing around and found Paul Jaminet talking about osteoarthritis. His take was sugar and K2, and if arthritis persists or develops, Vitamin A supplementation. He also said something about rice, I think because of the B vitamins.

I am now at the point that I might as well just pack my refrigerator with butter and jello and sit down in front of it.

Click to expand...

Yes to K2!
I had regular and bothersome lower back pain all last year. I went to the doctor a lot and finally got labs done. She said there was blood in my urine and that i probably had a kidney stone, and that was the cause of my back pain. NOT saying that your pain is kidney stone...but I read that K2 was important for the proper deposition of calcium, and from Dr. Peat we know the direct reason tissues become fibroid, destroyed, or weak is the excitation related to improper deposition of calcium. I was pretty sure I didn't have a kidney stone, but I took K2 anyway and within a week I had absolutely no back pain at all and have not since and it's been about two months, where I had back pain nearly every single day and couldn't even bend over.

So yes, I'd take K2. I take the Life Extension brand Super K, which has K1 and two types of K2 without any toxic additives. It's also a high dose so I only take it every other day, so the expense (it's $22) is not too bad.

The mechanism by which these kinds of problems persist is most likely the elevated levels of intracellular calcium, preventing other minerals like sodium, chloride, and potassium from getting in where they are supposed to be, so something like K2 would definitely aid your condition, helping to regulate the calcium and thus allowing the other minerals in.

I am not really in a lot of pain. This is actually far more alarming -- my arms and body shake -- for a while before I was issued muscle relaxers I had what is called L'hermittes Sign -- electrical shocks through the back, slight nystagmus and what they'll call "neurological deficit".

Also hot flashes.

It started to occur to me once I saw this MRI that my hot flashes at night are entirely related to the fact that these discs are pressing on the nerves in my neck and "abutting the spinal cord" while the three of them together are all growing osteophytes to stabilize. These are words like "spondylosis" and "stenosis" -- the spinal cord is narrowing due to compression.

It's a somewhat complex problem and I'm sort of hoping to run across something that doesn't involve spinal fusion. What I've gleaned from Peat is that both aspirin and K2 can stop the osteoarthritic changes and in general keep the blood supply less fibrotic.

I have no idea what to do about the rest of it. It's a mechanical problem -- the discs are in the wrong place and they are getting less and less room to move around.

I knew someone who had surgery to replace a damaged cervical disk with an artificial ring of some kind. I think it was a relatively new procedure round here. It was successful for him, but the risks are serious.

I'm reading fatigue,ageing and recuperation and found this:

"It rarely occurs to physicians to consider disturbances of water distribution in problems such as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sleep disturbances, frequent urination, slow bladder emptying, anxiety, paresthesia, movement disorders, the tunnel syndromes, or even slowed thinking, but "intracellular fatigue" leading to over-hydration is probably the central problem in these, and many other degenerative and inflammatory problems "

" The "treatment" for intracellular fatigue consists of normalizing thyroid and steroid metabolism, and eating a diet including fruit juice, milk, some eggs or liver, and gelatin, assuring adequate calcium, potassium sodium, and magnesium, and using supplements of niacin-amide, aspirin, and carbon dioxide when necessary. Simply increasing carbon dioxide decreases lactic acid and ammonia, increases GABA (the sleep improving nerve inhibitor), and regulates mineral and water disposition."

sueq said:

I'm reading fatigue,ageing and recuperation and found this:

"It rarely occurs to physicians to consider disturbances of water distribution in problems such as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sleep disturbances, frequent urination, slow bladder emptying, anxiety, paresthesia, movement disorders, the tunnel syndromes, or even slowed thinking, but "intracellular fatigue" leading to over-hydration is probably the central problem in these, and many other degenerative and inflammatory problems "

" The "treatment" for intracellular fatigue consists of normalizing thyroid and steroid metabolism, and eating a diet including fruit juice, milk, some eggs or liver, and gelatin, assuring adequate calcium, potassium sodium, and magnesium, and using supplements of niacin-amide, aspirin, and carbon dioxide when necessary. Simply increasing carbon dioxide decreases lactic acid and ammonia, increases GABA (the sleep improving nerve inhibitor), and regulates mineral and water disposition."

Click to expand...

Yes, thank you!