Fruitarian Diet For Weightloss?

windlewin · Jan 27, 2015

What are your thoughts on doing an all fruit diet for weight loss? I'm pretty sure Peat has said he doesn't totally oppose all fruit diets and that they may even be optimal in some situations. Clearly it works for some of those 801010 fans. What about all fruit with just a bit of protein from shrimp at each meal? I ask because people appear to have really great results with it yet it seems a bit extreme...

cantstoppeating · Jan 27, 2015

On the topic of consuming an all fruit diet, Ray has commented:

Ray Peat said:
For best resistance to stress, more protein is desirable.

So how much is "more protein"?

Ray Peat said:
For intense exercise, it's about a gram per pound of body weight.

Ray Peat said:
That's more than enough, and with low thyroid function the excess of tryptophan, methionine, and cystein can lower your thyroid even more. Until your metabolic rate is higher, 80 to 100 grams would be better. Replacing it with sugar, or very well cooked starch, would support thyroid function.

Quotes taken from: http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges

Stilgar · Jan 27, 2015

I think I still idolize that kind of diet, i.e. wish on some level that i could achieve good results and not feel awful. The very lean people promoting it are hot and inspiring at first glance. However, i find that my body revolts without serious attention to protein and with two years on fruit and two on peat, the difference in wellbeing is night and day. The people promoting it are over zealous, blinded by their own successes and frustratingly narrow minded.

I used to wonder if i just never ate enough on the fruit diet to get enough protein, but tbh I'm not convinced it would make much difference
because my protein needs have proved to be quite high.

It depends on your history but i would be very
cautious. Better off being low fat or doing just potatoes and shrimp or something like that.

Such_Saturation · Jan 27, 2015

Ray Peat said he thinks it is feasible through extensive knowledge of the amino acid spectrum of the various fruits, and that he would have done this kind of research had he been given the means for it.

Ben · Jan 27, 2015

Don't try it. An all fruit diet will provide little protein and salt. Also, you are likely to get excessive water from such a diet. Combined with the other two factors, it is the kiss of death for prolactin, and therefore serotonin levels.

Don't follow a set diet. Your cravings will tell you how much water, protein, sugar, and salt you need, and even probably more specific nutrients.

tara · Jan 27, 2015

windlewin

windlewin said:
What are your thoughts on doing an all fruit diet for weight loss? I'm pretty sure Peat has said he doesn't totally oppose all fruit diets and that they may even be optimal in some situations. Clearly it works for some of those 801010 fans. What about all fruit with just a bit of protein from shrimp at each meal? I ask because people appear to have really great results with it yet it seems a bit extreme...

I assume you are wanting to shed mostly fat without losing too much of your other weight?

If you cut calories by too much, you risk slowing metabolism and catabolising your other organs (not just the adipose organ). If you have already been running on low calories, or your metabolism is already low, then I wouldn't recommend continuing or deepening the deficit.

I'm with the others that say more protein. Depending on the quality of the fruit, you may also benefit from more calcium (Peat has suggested ~2000mg). If you can't get enough from fruit, milk and shrimp shells, consider supplementing with eggshell or oystershell powder. Eat as much salt (NaCl) as your body asks for. If you have trouble with the high water content, you could switch some of the fresh fruit out for dried fruit for higher calorie density. Some people have trouble with too much fibre from whole fruit, and do better with strained juice.

But with those provisos, lots of fruit (eg a few kilos/day) with some shrimp and/or milk and/or eggs at each meal (to at least 80-100g) might work for a while. I wouldn't recommend being so strict that you overrule strong cravings for other food. They could provide a clue that you are needing more of something else.

Depending on what your history and current health state is, the low PUFA content of a diet like this might give you some major though gradual benefits as well.

lindsay · Jan 27, 2015

You might want to ask Jennifer about this..... I think these diets are too low in protein, calcium, salt and other important nutrients (like fat soluble vitamins).

tara · Jan 27, 2015

lindsay said:
You might want to ask Jennifer about this..... I think these diets are too low in protein, calcium, salt and other important nutrients (like fat soluble vitamins).

Good idea to read Jennifer's posts on this.

Kasra · Jan 27, 2015

I think that just about every fruitarian would benefit from a little milk or meat in their diet.

superhuman · Jan 28, 2015

i did fruitarian for 2-3 years, i promise you one thing that will make the biggest impact on your health when following RP is to get enough animal protein. Its so ******* important i dont have words. All fruit is GREAT but you need animal protein from dairy as best. Skimmed milk, cottage cheese whatever. I feel more is better in the beginning since the body probably has alot of catching on to do.

Jennifer · Jan 28, 2015

superhuman said:
i did fruitarian for 2-3 years, i promise you one thing that will make the biggest impact on your health when following RP is to get enough animal protein. Its so f***ing important i dont have words. All fruit is GREAT but you need animal protein from dairy as best. Skimmed milk, cottage cheese whatever. I feel more is better in the beginning since the body probably has alot of catching on to do.

I completely agree with superhuman, Kasra and Lindsay.

Too many people have done a fruitarian diet, I did it for two years like superhuman, and ended up very sick. I destroyed my bones and ended up with 12 back fractures, many of which compressed, leaving my spine deformed and forcing me to have to relearn how to walk. 6 years later and I'm still trying to get my health back.

I just wrote to Ray about this very subject because I'm quite concerned for people who are promised miracles by fruitarianism/80/10/10 and think that Ray would advocate such a diet. Ray has admitted that without knowing the keto acid content of the different fruits, that kind of diet isn't safe. He was in the process of getting the necessary reagents to study the fruit, but due to new laws was unable to. I'll post his response when I get it. Till then, don't believe the fruitarian hype. Yes, you will most likely lose weight, but at the expense of your health and wellbeing, this I'm sure.

SQu · Jan 29, 2015

It's so great that people can get feedback here from others who've learned the hard way, before they fall into the same trap. Nothing else out there would probably tell you much if anything that's in this short little thread. Wish I'd been in this position before low carbing, just to select probably the most damaging thing I did to myself.

Ben · Jan 29, 2015

Jennifer said:
I completely agree with superhuman, Kasra and Lindsay.

And old Ben Kenobi. Right? RIGHT? Lol.

Like I said, the only issue isn't insufficient protein, but also the catastrophic sodium-water ratio. As beneficial as sucrose is, a lot of people cannot consume very much in the form of fruits and fruit juices unless they overhydrate by consuming a lot, but at that point, they lose sodium, and at that point their metabolism plummets, sucrose or not.

I add about a tablespoon of baking soda to 2 liters of juice, and it allows me to consume a decent amount of juice for a significant caloric influence in the diet, without consistent dehydration, which happens when I increase the amount to 2 tbsp, which has the same sodium-water ratio as a hypertonic salt solution.

However, my metabolism is high and someone with a slow metabolism could not even safely consume the 1tbsp/2L juice. If you want proof, monitor your temp and pulse responses to high amounts of fruit juice on an empty stomach with no baking soda added

And yet another point, fat is a great thing which is not found in fruits. It is perhaps the most powerful inhibitor of growth hormone, the "hormone of stress, aging, and death" as RP puts it, which is lipolytic and causes PUFAs to be released into the bloodstream. Your own fat has more PUFA than coconut oil, or even butter, and plus growth hormone causes many other negative effects.

Learn to follow cravings people! I find all of this dietary theorizing nauseating,

Anonymous · Jan 29, 2015

Even if you truly wanted to do it and mindset was not a factor at all, an all fruit diet is nearly impossible to sustain for a few reasons. Unless you live in a tropical area, all you have is basic supermarket fruits. Sometimes, you can get good fruit in regular stores but 85% of the time you can't. Unless you're a quack like me, who buys fruit directly from wholesale distributors by the box, then you won't get good fruit. Even when I buy wholesale, it is still hit or miss on most fruits. The ripeness and sweetness factor is so important. Frozen and canned fruits are better than no fruits but nothing is better than fresh and ripe. Fruit is not as satiating as starch. Fruit should only be eaten if you truly crave sweet at that moment. That is why Peat drinks OJ everyday, or when he's not in Mexico where he can get good fruit. He said when glycogen is full, sweet things usually aren't appetizing. That makes sense. Forcing yourself to eat fruit when you aren't craving sweet is dumb.

Jennifer · Jan 29, 2015

Ben said:
Jennifer said:

I completely agree with superhuman, Kasra and Lindsay.

Click to expand...

And old Ben Kenobi. Right? RIGHT? Lol

Oh gosh! I don't know how I could have forgotten you, Ben. You brought up all great points and I completely agree with this..."Learn to follow cravings."

Weekend PUFAs said:
Even if you truly wanted to do it and mindset was not a factor at all, an all fruit diet is nearly impossible to sustain for a few reasons. Unless you live in a tropical area, all you have is basic supermarket fruits. Sometimes, you can get good fruit in regular stores but 85% of the time you can't. Unless you're a quack like me, who buys fruit directly from wholesale distributors by the box, then you won't get good fruit. Even when I buy wholesale, it is still hit or miss on most fruits. The ripeness and sweetness factor is so important. Frozen and canned fruits are better than no fruits but nothing is better than fresh and ripe. Fruit is not as satiating as starch. Fruit should only be eaten if you truly crave sweet at that moment. That is why Peat drinks OJ everyday, or when he's not in Mexico where he can get good fruit. He said when glycogen is full, sweet things usually aren't appetizing. That makes sense. Forcing yourself to eat fruit when you aren't craving sweet is dumb.

You bring up really good points, W&P, that people don't know about if they haven't done the diet for any length of time. It's so hard to acquire enough sweet ripe fruit to get enough calories. I looked into buying wholesale like you so you're not alone in the quackery department. You basically have to if you don't live in a warm climate where you can grow your own fruit. Even some of the more well known proponents of the high carb raw vegan movement, like Harley and Freelee, had to resort to cooked starches, admitting that getting enough ripe fruit to do the diet 100% is nearly impossible. Then you have someone like Kristina who had to start the Rawfully Organic coop to be able to have enough good produce at her disposal.

And you're spot on about sweet things not being appetizing when glycogen is full. I was forcing myself to eat fruit even when I was disgusted by its sweetness. I got myself into a pickle believing the 80/10/10 hype and the promise that it would cure my depression and get my weight up to a healthy level. When my weight continued to fall and I was even more depressed, I thought I wasn't eating enough fruit cabs and kept upping my calories. Fruit is great, but 3000 calories of it was ridiculous to eat.

But yes, sueq, it's great to have forums like this where we can all share our experiences, both good and bad. I know I'll never even entertain the thought of doing a low-carb Paleo diet thanks to people on here sharing their experience with it.

windlewin · Jan 29, 2015

Thank you so much everyone for your advice! I think I'm just going to stick to a high fruit peat style diet (meaning that ill include milk and other animal products!) honestly I was mystified by the claims by Freelee & Harley but I see that it's just not worth it to risk your health for quick weightloss

messtafarian · Jan 29, 2015

I think it could be beneficial in the short term since thyroid also likes sugar and digesting protein involves the kidneys. If you were *really* in a bad way digestively, could keep very little down and were not really even digesting your proteins adequately, an all fruit diet might be anti-inflammatory for a couple weeks. People who can not digest protein or whose stomachs have sort of gone on strike can be walking around with a lot of ammonia in their bloodstreams and brains and that can be really unpleasant.

People who are thrilled with this approach usually start proclaiming benefit very early - like the first week -- and were probably not eating enough sugar to begin with so, you know, yay! Energy. And a low protein diet means NO ammonia at all and some stress off of the kidneys. If the kidneys were stressed, this plus bicarb plus an antihistamine could effect a miracle cure.

If you supplemented salt, a teaspoon or two of coconut oil and added two dairy protein servings you'd basically have a Peat diet :).

Jennifer · Jan 30, 2015

So I asked Ray if he recommends an all fruit diet as safe and optimal and recieved his response this afternoon.

Ray Peat wrote:

"I recommend a diet including milk, eggs, cheese, orange juice and some other fruits, sea food, certain meats (emphasizing gelatinous things), and occasionally liver. I usually recommend some butter, coconut oil, and some occasional olive oil (for example with a carrot salad). I think any active adult should get at least 100 grams of protein per day."

This is exactly the diet recommendations I took away from his articles. I'm glad I'm understanding him. I know an all fruit diet ruined my health and so many others and it wasn't because we didn't do the diet right so I'm glad Ray doesn't advocate such an extreme way of eating.

superhuman · Jan 31, 2015

RP: The liver, to the extent that it's injured, will ruin the whole organism. It's the chemist for the whole organism. If you're starving and not getting enough protein especially, or not enough B-vitamins, your liver loses the ability to detoxify, and you get gross hormone imbalances. That can lead to progressive inflammation, fibrosis - and as these processes get more serious, the liver becomes a larger source of nitric oxide. At the point that it's becoming inflamed and cirrhotic, then it starts secreting nitric oxide to the whole system. The lungs, with an acute injury to the liver, the lungs will become acutely inflamed. When they transplant a liver, they've measured the sick person's nitric oxide very high. When they put in a new liver, suddenly the nitric oxide is low and the lungs suddenly begin working more efficiently, demonstrating that the liver is poisoning the lungs so that the oxygen doesn't get through efficiently. With the brain - same thing is happening. Edema is produced in the brain by the endotoxin / nitric oxide combination. The ammonia produced by the liver which is being injured was traditional explanation for why the brain has problems in proportion to the liver, but now it's known that ammonia is activating the nerves that are excited by the glutamic acid - MSG, excitatory amino acids - and those excitatory amino acids act largely through nitric oxide. So depression, anxiety, and I assume aggression is part of this mixture of gradual poisoning to different degrees.

Daimyo · Jan 31, 2015

Would you consider fruit jelly as a part of all fruit diet?

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Fruitarian Diet For Weightloss?

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