Pregnenolone Metabolite Lowers Cortisol By 60%

haidut

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For some reason this has been a recurring topic on the forum and people have been talking about the "pregnenolone steal" as something mentioned by Peat. Peat actually said there is no such thing and ridiculed the idea. More importantly, pregnenolone protects the brain from the damage of cortisol and the main mechanism suspected is by elevation of progesterone and allopregnanolone. If you look at this thread, you will see that 500mg daily dose of pregnenolone elevated both progesterone and allopregnanolone by several fold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5452&hilit=pregnenolone+estradiol+authors#p64315

This study shows that allopregnanolone reduces levels of both ACTH and cortisol in humans.
Effects of acute progesterone administration upon responses to acute psychosocial stress in men
"...Further, allopregnanolone attenuates stress-induced increases in adrenocorticotrophic hormone and corticosterone (Patchev et al., 1996). In humans, stress induces increases in progesterone and allopregnanolone (Childs & de Wit, 2009; Droogleever Fortuyn et al., 2004)."

And here is the study on allopregnanolone effects on ACTH/cortisol, referenced above:
The neurosteroid tetrahydroprogesterone attenuates the endocrine response to stress and exerts glucocorticoid-like effects on vasopressin gene tran... - PubMed - NCBI

From the study above:
"...Thirty minutes after exposure to intermittent air puffs, plasma ACTH, and serum CORT levels in vehicle treated rats were significantly increased above those measured in nonstressed animals. Single injections of 50 mcg/kg of THP (allopregnanolone) or P4 (progesterone), before emotional stress significantly attenuated the stress-induced increase in ACTH and CORT. Pretreatment with DEX virtually abolished the pituitary-adrenal secretory response to stress (Figure 2)."

"...In summary, this study indicates that the neurosteroid THP (allopregnanolone)) attenuates the endocrine response to stress and affects the gene transcription of AVP in the PVN in a pattern similar to that seen with glucocorticoids and P4 (progesterone). However, unlike CORT and P4, THP failed to influence the transcription of genes encoding corticosteroid receptors in the hippocampus. These results are largely supportive of the hypothesis that certain ring-A-reduced steroid derivatives may act as endogenous suppressors of the stress response (cf., Purdy et al. 1991) and document a dichotomy in the effects of THP upon neural substrates, subserving neuroendocrine and behavioral adaptation. However, because the changes described herein were induced by exogenously administered neurosteroids, further evidence is needed to ascertain that endogenously produced neurosteroids act in a similar fashion under physiological conditions."

I have attached an image from the study showing the decreases in cortisol and ACTH after allopregnanolone administration.
 

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Dean

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

I'll be following this discussion closely. Count me in the number of those dissuaded from trying pregnenolone due to cortisol concerns. Heavy crashes/hangovers from a few low dose experiments with DHEA also lead me to believe pregnenolone was not worth trying for someone like me with life long untreated (not for lack of trying) hypothyroidism that has me functioning (or often, merely existing) on adrenalin. Even an overly ambitious dose of salt can literally "konk" me out.

My understanding has been that unless you have a healthy thyroid function or are supplementing, pregnenolone would be a fruitless, or even counterproductive, endeavor. For that reason, I'd kind of decided to give progesterone a try--but haven't taken that leap yet either. It seems for every positive account of hormone supplementation, there are at least a handful of negative ones.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

haidut said:
For some reason this has been a recurring topic on the forum and people have been talking about the "pregnenolone steal" as something mentioned by Peat. Peat actually said there is no such thing and ridiculed the idea. More importantly, pregnenolone protects the brain from the damage of cortisol and the main mechanism is by elevation of progesterone and allopregnanolone. If you look at this thread, you will see that 500mg daily dose of pregnenolone elevated both progesterone and allopregnanolone by several fold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5452&hilit=pregnenolone+estradiol+authors#p64315

This study shows that allopregnanolone reduces levels of both ACTH and cortisol in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351805/
"...Further, allopregnanolone attenuates stress-induced increases in adrenocorticotrophic hormone and corticosterone (Patchev et al., 1996). In humans, stress induces increases in progesterone and allopregnanolone (Childs & de Wit, 2009; Droogleever Fortuyn et al., 2004)."


And here is the study on allopregnanolone effects on humans, referenced by above quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8946427/

So, pregnenolone was shown to dramatically elevate progesterone and allopregnanolone in humans. Given the beneficial effects of both of these steroids on brain and protection from cortisol, I don't see where the ideas for "pregnenolone steal" are coming from. Has anyone gotten higher cortisol lab results while taking pregnenolone?
I hope we can put that issue to rest, as it seems it is stopping many people from experimenting with pregnenolone, which happens to be one of the most broadly acting tools in Peat-land.

I don't know where the post is right now, but I recall readingforjoy had higher estrogen levels confirmed by blood tests after using pregnenolone.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Dean said:
I'll be following this discussion closely. Count me in the number of those dissuaded from trying pregnenolone due to cortisol concerns. Heavy crashes/hangovers from a few low dose experiments with DHEA also lead me to believe pregnenolone was not worth trying for someone like me with life long untreated (not for lack of trying) hypothyroidism that has me functioning (or often, merely existing) on adrenalin. Even an overly ambitious dose of salt can literally "konk" me out.

My understanding has been that unless you have a healthy thyroid function or are supplementing, pregnenolone would be a fruitless, or even counterproductive, endeavor. For that reason, I'd kind of decided to give progesterone a try--but haven't taken that leap yet either. It seems for every positive account of hormone supplementation, there are at least a handful of negative ones.

Those crashes/hangovers are most likely due to two main issues - lower cortisol and higher pogesterone/allopregnanolone. The crashes suggest metabolism is low, since after lowering cortisol the body turns to thyroid for energy and if there is none/little then you crash.
Peat has written about the "drunk" and hangover feelings from progsterone. Allopregnanolone gives people the same feeling. Google both hormones and the Wikipedia page for both describes these effects. So, pregnenolone is actually giving you a pretty good signal in this case - a signal that you are still mostly running on stress hormones and you need to increase thyroid output or lower FFA that may be blocking repiration even in the presence of normal thyroid.
Just my 2c.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

JRMoney15 said:
haidut said:
For some reason this has been a recurring topic on the forum and people have been talking about the "pregnenolone steal" as something mentioned by Peat. Peat actually said there is no such thing and ridiculed the idea. More importantly, pregnenolone protects the brain from the damage of cortisol and the main mechanism is by elevation of progesterone and allopregnanolone. If you look at this thread, you will see that 500mg daily dose of pregnenolone elevated both progesterone and allopregnanolone by several fold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5452&hilit=pregnenolone+estradiol+authors#p64315

This study shows that allopregnanolone reduces levels of both ACTH and cortisol in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351805/
"...Further, allopregnanolone attenuates stress-induced increases in adrenocorticotrophic hormone and corticosterone (Patchev et al., 1996). In humans, stress induces increases in progesterone and allopregnanolone (Childs & de Wit, 2009; Droogleever Fortuyn et al., 2004)."


And here is the study on allopregnanolone effects on humans, referenced by above quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8946427/

So, pregnenolone was shown to dramatically elevate progesterone and allopregnanolone in humans. Given the beneficial effects of both of these steroids on brain and protection from cortisol, I don't see where the ideas for "pregnenolone steal" are coming from. Has anyone gotten higher cortisol lab results while taking pregnenolone?
I hope we can put that issue to rest, as it seems it is stopping many people from experimenting with pregnenolone, which happens to be one of the most broadly acting tools in Peat-land.

I don't know where the post is right now, but I recall readingforjoy had higher estrogen levels confirmed by blood tests after using pregnenolone.

Well, the human study I referred to above and all others I have seen show no increase in estrogen. In fact, you should be getting lower estrogen effects due to the large increases of endogenous progesterone that the supplemental pregnenolone is causing. Finally, I posted a study a while ago showing pregnenolone directly inhibits aromatase. Progesterone is also aromatase inhbitor. So, the combination of the two should at the very least NOT increase estrogen. All human studies I have seen agree with this reasoning.
However, I'd consider the blood tests you mention if that users finds this thread and posts. It could be other things he/she took, extra stress, inadequate sugar intake, etc.
Anyways, bottom line is that all the symptoms I have heard described in this thread and others are actually symptoms of lowered ACTH and cortisol, revealing low thyroid function or low metabolism due to other issues like high plasma levels of FFA.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

haidut said:
JRMoney15 said:
haidut said:
For some reason this has been a recurring topic on the forum and people have been talking about the "pregnenolone steal" as something mentioned by Peat. Peat actually said there is no such thing and ridiculed the idea. More importantly, pregnenolone protects the brain from the damage of cortisol and the main mechanism is by elevation of progesterone and allopregnanolone. If you look at this thread, you will see that 500mg daily dose of pregnenolone elevated both progesterone and allopregnanolone by several fold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5452&hilit=pregnenolone+estradiol+authors#p64315

This study shows that allopregnanolone reduces levels of both ACTH and cortisol in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351805/
"...Further, allopregnanolone attenuates stress-induced increases in adrenocorticotrophic hormone and corticosterone (Patchev et al., 1996). In humans, stress induces increases in progesterone and allopregnanolone (Childs & de Wit, 2009; Droogleever Fortuyn et al., 2004)."


And here is the study on allopregnanolone effects on humans, referenced by above quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8946427/

So, pregnenolone was shown to dramatically elevate progesterone and allopregnanolone in humans. Given the beneficial effects of both of these steroids on brain and protection from cortisol, I don't see where the ideas for "pregnenolone steal" are coming from. Has anyone gotten higher cortisol lab results while taking pregnenolone?
I hope we can put that issue to rest, as it seems it is stopping many people from experimenting with pregnenolone, which happens to be one of the most broadly acting tools in Peat-land.

I don't know where the post is right now, but I recall readingforjoy had higher estrogen levels confirmed by blood tests after using pregnenolone.

Well, the human study I referred to above and all others I have seen show no increase in estrogen. In fact, you should be getting lower estrogen effects due to the large increases of endogenous progesterone that the supplemental pregnenolone is causing. Finally, I posted a study a while ago showing pregnenolone directly inhibits aromatase. Progesterone is also aromatase inhbitor. So, the combination of the two should at the very least NOT increase estrogen. All human studies I have seen agree with this reasoning.
However, I'd consider the blood tests you mention if that users finds this thread and posts. It could be other things he/she took, extra stress, inadequate sugar intake, etc.
Anyways, bottom line is that all the symptoms I have heard described in this thread and others are actually symptoms of lowered ACTH and cortisol, revealing low thyroid function or low metabolism due to other issues like high plasma levels of FFA.

Okay, great. I hope you are correct. Also, what do you think causes the reported feelings of anger/irritability when people take pregnenolone?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

JRMoney15 said:
haidut said:
JRMoney15 said:
haidut said:
For some reason this has been a recurring topic on the forum and people have been talking about the "pregnenolone steal" as something mentioned by Peat. Peat actually said there is no such thing and ridiculed the idea. More importantly, pregnenolone protects the brain from the damage of cortisol and the main mechanism is by elevation of progesterone and allopregnanolone. If you look at this thread, you will see that 500mg daily dose of pregnenolone elevated both progesterone and allopregnanolone by several fold.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5452&hilit=pregnenolone+estradiol+authors#p64315

This study shows that allopregnanolone reduces levels of both ACTH and cortisol in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351805/
"...Further, allopregnanolone attenuates stress-induced increases in adrenocorticotrophic hormone and corticosterone (Patchev et al., 1996). In humans, stress induces increases in progesterone and allopregnanolone (Childs & de Wit, 2009; Droogleever Fortuyn et al., 2004)."


And here is the study on allopregnanolone effects on humans, referenced by above quote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8946427/

So, pregnenolone was shown to dramatically elevate progesterone and allopregnanolone in humans. Given the beneficial effects of both of these steroids on brain and protection from cortisol, I don't see where the ideas for "pregnenolone steal" are coming from. Has anyone gotten higher cortisol lab results while taking pregnenolone?
I hope we can put that issue to rest, as it seems it is stopping many people from experimenting with pregnenolone, which happens to be one of the most broadly acting tools in Peat-land.

I don't know where the post is right now, but I recall readingforjoy had higher estrogen levels confirmed by blood tests after using pregnenolone.

Well, the human study I referred to above and all others I have seen show no increase in estrogen. In fact, you should be getting lower estrogen effects due to the large increases of endogenous progesterone that the supplemental pregnenolone is causing. Finally, I posted a study a while ago showing pregnenolone directly inhibits aromatase. Progesterone is also aromatase inhbitor. So, the combination of the two should at the very least NOT increase estrogen. All human studies I have seen agree with this reasoning.
However, I'd consider the blood tests you mention if that users finds this thread and posts. It could be other things he/she took, extra stress, inadequate sugar intake, etc.
Anyways, bottom line is that all the symptoms I have heard described in this thread and others are actually symptoms of lowered ACTH and cortisol, revealing low thyroid function or low metabolism due to other issues like high plasma levels of FFA.

Okay, great. I hope you are correct. Also, what do you think causes the reported feelings of anger/irritability when people take pregnenolone?

Most likely two reasons. Could be either one or both.

1. Symptoms of either metabolic crash due to inhbited ACTH/cortisol in people with low thyroid function. When the cells are not getting their energy, mood is not good. When you lower the stress hormones but do not replace them with increased thyroid function the situation will not feel right. Member "kineticz" has a similar experience with pregnenolone.

2. Classic symptoms of high allopregnanolone are anger and irritability. These are also discussed on the Wikipedia page. So, it means that pregnenolone is working but since a lot of it is converted into allopregnanolone it suggests you are under stress. Progesterone metabolism is steered towards allopregnanolone when the brain perceives the presence of chronic stress. It could be happening even if you do not think you are under stress. It's all about what your experiences were like in the last several weeks. That's what the brain will use to decide if you are stressed or not. Of course, if you had major stress or trauma then this conversion into allopregnanolone will be the default result. But the good news is that pregnenolone and its metabolites are very powerful brain healers. So, taking it for several weeks/months should eventually ease the ideation of stress and lower the conversion of progesterone into allopregnanolone so you'd have more progesterone left over to float around and do its good of smashing down estrogen in tissues.
 

Peata

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

haidut said:
JRMoney15 said:
haidut said:
Anyways, bottom line is that all the symptoms I have heard described in this thread and others are actually symptoms of lowered ACTH and cortisol, revealing low thyroid function or low metabolism due to other issues like high plasma levels of FFA.

Including my symptoms that felt so awful, like SSRI discontinuation sydrome? If so, it kind of confirms what I felt about it, that it was due to cortisol (only I thought it was raised cortisol) and it uncovering a lack of thyroid/metabolism.

Here's some of what I experienced: "After the 2 p.m. dose [pregnenolone] (total 150 mg. to that point) I had some slight light-headedness, sort of a spaced-out feeling. It's increased a little with the more recent dose (for total over the day of 200 mg)... It reminds me a little of how I felt when I first started Progest-E, I got a little bit of a drunk feeling. This isn't quite a drunk-feeling, just an ever so light dizzy or head spinning...."

"I do think the pregnenolone started up something in me that my system wasn't prepared for since my thyroid is still lacking."

"[pregnenolone symptoms]...the weird head feelings, some vertigo, rapid heart beat, malaise, anxiety, some fog or inability to focus on detailed stuff - these symptoms would come and go throughout the day, other than the inability to focus/fog.."

"I really don't know much about it, but my feeling is that it [pregnenolone] bumped my adrenal (cortisol?) production up and my thyroid was not able to "keep up" with it..."

"I've had a problem with how I feel [since using pregnenolone], especially when I eat. It doesn't matter what I eat, btw. But I get some vertigo, malaise, rapid heartbeat, sometimes chills going down my body, weird sensations in extremities. Again, it doesn't matter what I eat, could be the most Peaty thing and it happens..."

"But I think it [pregnenolone] may have increased my metabolism or fired my thyroid up more than it was used to and increased adrenaline. Maybe increased cortisol? I'm guessing, but I really don't know. I'm open to thoughts on it if anyone wants to speculate..."

I'm not the only one who went through that. Here's a thread on it: viewtopic.php?t=3665 The user, Erraticpattern, listed some studies.

Thanks for your comments.
 

Peata

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol


And I wanted to add that when I would get periods of heat/increased metabolism through eating or keeping warm,etc, (though at that time, the heat was hard to hold onto), those ill feelings from pregnenolone would "burn off", or go away for a while.
 

Dean

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

haidut said:
Those crashes/hangovers are most likely due to two main issues - lower cortisol and higher pogesterone/allopregnanolone. The crashes suggest metabolism is low, since after lowering cortisol the body turns to thyroid for energy and if there is none/little then you crash.
Peat has written about the "drunk" and hangover feelings from progsterone. Allopregnanolone gives people the same feeling. Google both hormones and the Wikipedia page for both describes these effects. So, pregnenolone is actually giving you a pretty good signal in this case - a signal that you are still mostly running on stress hormones and you need to increase thyroid output or lower FFA that may be blocking repiration even in the presence of normal thyroid.
Just my 2c.

I appreciate your input. My ability to understand it is another matter. It seems what you are saying is that I would be advised to avoid both pregnenolone and progesterone supplementation until I can improve thyroid function/improve metabolism? I've been very low-fat (about 20g/day) "peating" for four months now so I would hope my FFA would be lowering. but that doesn't seem to be translating into better metabolism yet. My metabolism has been glacial my whole life. So I guess there is no quick, easy solution.

Allopregnanolone is something I'm completely unfamiliar with. I'll take your advice and read more about that... and progesterone. My consideration of trying progesterone was based on some accounts of it improving/stimulating thyroid function. Kind of a hail-mary desperation thing.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Peata said:

And I wanted to add that when I would get periods of heat/increased metabolism through eating or keeping warm,etc, (though at that time, the heat was hard to hold onto), those ill feelings from pregnenolone would "burn off", or go away for a while.

Off-topic: you've had all sorts of problems using all sorts of things for so long that you're becoming a broken record. Not once have I seen you post any lab work.

You've been at it for 3 years and you're still as confused as when you started. Get some labwork and save yourself another 3 years. :2cents
 

Peata

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

cantstoppeating said:
Peata said:

And I wanted to add that when I would get periods of heat/increased metabolism through eating or keeping warm,etc, (though at that time, the heat was hard to hold onto), those ill feelings from pregnenolone would "burn off", or go away for a while.

Off-topic: you've had all sorts of problems using all sorts of things for so long that you're becoming a broken record. Not once have I seen you post any lab work.

You've been at it for 3 years and you're still as confused as when you started. Get some labwork and save yourself another 3 years. :2cents

*handing your two cents back to you* Please put me on ignore, if you will, as it's apparent my posts are bothering you for some reason. My post above was in reference to trying pregnenolone over a year ago and I listed some of the symptoms it caused me in order to confirm/get Haidut's opinion on if those symptoms gelled with what he was talking about in this thread - low cortisol.

Otherwise, I'm doing just fine and do not have any reason to check my lab work at this time. Thanks though.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

:cool: just wait until kineticz hears about this...
 

Dean

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

cantstoppeating said:
Peata said:

And I wanted to add that when I would get periods of heat/increased metabolism through eating or keeping warm,etc, (though at that time, the heat was hard to hold onto), those ill feelings from pregnenolone would "burn off", or go away for a while.

Off-topic: you've had all sorts of problems using all sorts of things for so long that you're becoming a broken record. Not once have I seen you post any lab work.

You've been at it for 3 years and you're still as confused as when you started. Get some labwork and save yourself another 3 years. :2cents

Man, that was a pretty dickish post. Perhaps you aren't from the US and don't realize how expensive labs are and how hostile doctors are to even allowing them. The last thing they want to do is enable someone to get to the heart of their problems. They don't want to cut off their gravy train of massaging symptoms and side effects into office visits and the prescription writing the pharma companies so richly reward them for.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Dean said:
cantstoppeating said:
Peata said:

And I wanted to add that when I would get periods of heat/increased metabolism through eating or keeping warm,etc, (though at that time, the heat was hard to hold onto), those ill feelings from pregnenolone would "burn off", or go away for a while.

Off-topic: you've had all sorts of problems using all sorts of things for so long that you're becoming a broken record. Not once have I seen you post any lab work.

You've been at it for 3 years and you're still as confused as when you started. Get some labwork and save yourself another 3 years. :2cents

Man, that was a pretty dickish post. Perhaps you aren't from the US and don't realize how expensive labs are and how hostile doctors are to even allowing them. The last thing they want to do is enable someone to get to the heart of their problems. They don't want to cut off their gravy train of massaging symptoms and side effects into office visits and the prescription writing the pharma companies so richly reward them for.

The US is one of the cheapest for private blood testing.

Just recently I heard of a company called Theranos that offers blood testing for pennies: full thyroid panel for $50 with other basic tests under $10.

Feel free to skim through Peata's post history. You'll have to revise what you call 'dickish'.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Dean said:
The last thing they want to do is enable someone to get to the heart of their problems. They don't want to cut off their gravy train of massaging symptoms and side effects into office visits and the prescription writing the pharma companies so richly reward them for.

You know, one time I found a lab in that country, they had pretty fair prices. They also had sales often, with about thirty dollars you could have a good bunch of information if you skipped the hormone tests. So, by the third time in two months that I used them, they had switched to a strict prescription only kind of policy.
 
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haidut

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Another study showing the pregnenolone/progesterone metabolite allopregnanolone potently suppresses HPA axis and lowers cortisol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24658404
 
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haidut

haidut

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Btw, check the original post since I just edited it to include some specific information on dosages and how much allopregnanolone and progesterone reduced cortisol and ACTH.
Does anybody have any studies or blood work that contradicts the findings that pregnenolone (through its metabolites) greatly reduces the stress response and its biomarkers cortisol and ACTH?
 

Katty

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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

So what's going on with women who seem to experience an increase in androgens... or what we've been taught to believe is androgens... when taking pregnenolone? I tried it several times and it caused cystic acne all along my lip line every time- which I've never experienced before or since. And women report increase in facial hair, etc. My first thought was that those symptoms are from increased cortisol, but maybe something else is going on??

Pregnenolone also caused a headache issue for me, which I also never had before, but that could be more related to not enough fuel... though it wasn't an "achey, I'm hungry" kind of headache. It was just pain in a specific spot in my head for several days.
 
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Re: Pregnenolone does NOT increase cortisol

Well wouldn't there be a rebound after stopping? Ray Peat said he thinks 300mg a week is enough, then people perceived, thought, and slammed a gram a day.
 
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