Bone broth

Theo · Jul 30, 2015

The healthiest time of my life was when I spent a ( Canadian ) winter consuming daily bone broth.
I could take the garbage out to the road wearing a t shirt in freezing weather. This while others were getting colds and flus .
I leaned the recipe from a European family who used their slow cooker every day of the year. As far as I know it was only off for weekly emptying and starting a new batch.

Adding wine is traditional..it apparently gets all the minerals out from the bones and herbs.

Do you make bone broth ?

Have you had good results with it ?

Makrosky · Jul 30, 2015

I've consumed ox tail gelatinous broth twice x week without much results other than it's very tasty!

Got much better results with great lakes gelatin until it gave me diarrhea :?

Mind to share your recipe with us?? Type of bones, time of cooking, device used, ammount ingested... I would like to give it another try this winter!

Theo · Jul 30, 2015

Using a 3 or 4 liter slow cooker ..add the rest (frame ) of the Thanksgiving turkey ..or a couple of remains ..bones of ..free range chickens.

For 3 liters of water add 2 tbsp of white wine...this gets the minerals out of the bones. Add organic carrot sliced ..some corn..
Herbs..
Bay leaves
Basil
Rosemary
Thyme
White and black peppercorns

Cook 24 hrs a day for 5 days. Skim the excess fat of the top from time to time . stir occasionally.
You can taste it after the first day..five days is awesome .

Using coffee filters .pour off into pickle jars. It's not uncommon in some families for people to consume a liter a day. It's rumored that if you give a jar of this to your mother in law she will like you ..just kidding.

Clean the bones and all out. Compost them..or throw them out.. The bones are usually soft enough to crush with your fingers if you go the compost route. Start a new batch.

You can get beef or pork bones from you butcher if you prefer. Just ask him for bone broth bones.

This is a healthy food. It's purported to help one live a long and healthy life.

Stuart · Jul 30, 2015

Theo said:
The healthiest time of my life was when I spent a ( Canadian ) winter consuming daily bone broth.
I could take the garbage out to the road wearing a t shirt in freezing weather. This while others were getting colds and flus .
I leaned the recipe from a European family who used their slow cooker every day of the year. As far as I know it was only off for weekly emptying and starting a new batch.

Adding wine is traditional..it apparently gets all the minerals out from the bones and herbs.

Do you make bone broth ?

Have you had good results with it ?

Fish heads. Simply no comparison with mammalian bone broth because you get the benefits of all the nerve tissue from the fish brain as well as all the gelatinous connective tissue from the fish bones/scales/ eyes etc. There are so many different nutrients in a fish head that all end up in the broth. Cow heads just will not fit in most pots anyway. Also the thyroid gland in fishes is situated in diverse follicles rather than a separate encapsulated gland.
So you don't have to bother with availability/regulatory hurdles buying thyroid supplements - it's all in the broth.
Fish heads are a complete Peatarian resource. They're free from most fishmongers too.
Don't use oily fish species though - they stink when made into a broth.
Use a lot of vinegar and leave it to stew for several days and everything becomes really soft - including all the bones/scales.
Nothing is wasted.
The best gadget to use is a sous vide cooker, which can be set at any temperature chosen between ambient and boiling. 60 deg C is low enough that you can leave it for months if required and no spoilage amines will form. Slow cookers cook at too high a temp compared to sous vide.

Theo · Jul 30, 2015

Stuart,
I definitely want to try some fish head broth.

OK so what type of fish to buy ? Let's start there.

I used to live by the sea and could get fish at the dock. Today I will have to go to a fish market in the city.

Sounds amazing.

Stuart · Jul 31, 2015

Theo said:
Stuart,
I definitely want to try some fish head broth.

OK so what type of fish to buy ? Let's start there.

I used to live by the sea and could get fish at the dock. Today I will have to go to a fish market in the city.

Sounds amazing.

Most fish shops (here in Australia anyway, not sure about the U.S. - but they will be cheap anyway, certainly compared to mammalian bones, because pets bump the price) will give them away. There are so many non oily fish species - whiting , bream. snapper, tailor The smaller fish heads will be easier to handle and will soften far quicker - you'll be eating broth quicker. It's actually a little bit of a misnomer calling this broth , because traditionally with a broth you strain out the bone and whatever other bits are left that are too hard to chew. This way nothing is left too hard to chew - all the bones/scales/sinew EVERYTHING become very soft. They don't actually completely dissolve unless you leave it for weeks. It's kind of nice to have a little bit of texture left anyway. Spice/season it according taste of course.
The only critical thing is you have to get the proportion of vinegar to hard material just right, because you don't want to end up with an acid final product. you want the vinegars acidity to all be used up softening the hard stuff (bones scales connective tissue). I find its between 1/4 and 1/3 of vinegar by weight.
If you use a pressure cooker you hardly need any vinegar and the time taken to soften even the toughest fish skull is considerably less - about two hours. A pressure cooker will even make mammalian 'brisket bones' soft. But won't soften harder marrow type bones.
The reason I think fish heads are the best is mainly because you get the diffuse thyroid tissue along with many other types of animal tissue (eyes nerve etc) .

LucH · Jul 31, 2015

Hi,
Poultry bones (organic) with some skin and a rest of meat (wings), or fish bones (with head) are best for broth. In small pieces. You can't get enough calcium from other bones (too strong and big).
To improve the result (calcium), I add 2 spoonfuls of organic apple cider vinegar (1 sp for 1 liter). You won't taste it much. That's ok.
Some people used to slowly cook broth for 24 H but RP says no more than 3 hours. In order to preserve integrity of amino acids. Lysine is very fragile. Now I will do like that.
I only add my vegetables half an hour before eating it.

Ultimate advice when you want too choose the appropriate time:
I freeze my poultry bones (no more than 3 - 6 months). I prepare then a broth without vegetables, with see salt (important for trace minerals). And I freeze it again in one liter boxes.
The day before, I put it in the fridge.
You haven't always the right vegetables at home to prepare a good broth soup.

See "Why broth is beautiful?
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... d-gelatin/

You add the vegetables you like: 4 big carrots (sliced), one leek, 2 stalks French celery (with leaves) ...
:yellohello

LucH

[mod=Moderator]This post contains alternatives to Ray Peat's views. For a full explanation click here.[/mod]

Makrosky · Jul 31, 2015

Theo said:
Using a 3 or 4 liter slow cooker ..add the rest (frame ) of the Thanksgiving turkey ..or a couple of remains ..bones of ..free range chickens.

For 3 liters of water add 2 tbsp of white wine...this gets the minerals out of the bones. Add organic carrot sliced ..some corn..
Herbs..
Bay leaves
Basil
Rosemary
Thyme
White and black peppercorns

Cook 24 hrs a day for 5 days. Skim the excess fat of the top from time to time . stir occasionally.
You can taste it after the first day..five days is awesome .

Using coffee filters .pour off into pickle jars. It's not uncommon in some families for people to consume a liter a day. It's rumored that if you give a jar of this to your mother in law she will like you ..just kidding.

Clean the bones and all out. Compost them..or throw them out.. The bones are usually soft enough to crush with your fingers if you go the compost route. Start a new batch.

You can get beef or pork bones from you butcher if you prefer. Just ask him for bone broth bones.

This is a healthy food. It's purported to help one live a long and healthy life.

Thanks a lot man. Gotta try this this winter. So you get 3-4 liters x week... I guess that's enough.

jimmyquick · Jul 31, 2015

Im starting to make weekly bone broth as well, I can def feel the benefits.

Haven't tired the fish heads yet as they are hard to source around where I live. Anyone possibly know of an online source that will ship in the states?

For anyone who makes rice, I highly recommend cooking it in the excess bone broth instead of water, its incredible.

SQu · Jul 31, 2015

I'm going to experiment with the fish heads too. And temperatures. I've been reading old cookbooks and every recipe so far includes gelatin from broth. If the cut wasn't gelatinous already they added something like a calf foot without comment. It went without saying. Clearly people ate a very different balance of amino acids up till my mother's generation. Some very clever tips include making your broth in the same pot with your dinner. Eg a stewing or pot roasting cut of beef simmers with a calf foot or pork trotter. And wine for the acid. I sometimes soak a whole chicken in water with vinegar overnight then slow cook and get cooked chicken and stock in one go. You might worry it would be tasteless but all it needs is salt (veg optional)

Theo · Jul 31, 2015

The synergy of the minerals , the herbs..some of which have been used for healing for centuries..( btw ..I forgot oregano..)...the spices..black peppercorns aid in absorption.. the vegetables...all work together in this traditional food.
I learned to use organic free range chicken stock and bones, however there are other broths..the southern Chinese use porc bones and beef bones. A local Cantonese restaurant has an amazing pork bones broth..very settling and nourishing.
You can add other ingredients Iike sliced or diced onions according to taste. Apple cider vinegar in small amounts..a little goes a long way. Although I prefer using white wine , I sometimes add a tbsp of apple cider vinegar...or balsamic. In addition to the white wine..btw
I am going to try my regular chicken bone recipe with an added fish head....the nutrients should be outstanding.

I respect what Ray Peat says about the aminos . I might pour off some and drink it after 3 hours. However, in China and Europe the long slow cooking of broths is centuries old and proven. So for now the majority of my broth will be consumed after 5 days.

We checked into electricity costs and , at the time, it was 3 cents a hour for electricity for slow cookers.

I add salt at the table only...not everyone has the same taste for salt. I use " fleur de sel "...a hand gathered sea salt...very tasty.

Such_Saturation · Jul 31, 2015

Theo said:
Using a 3 or 4 liter slow cooker ..add the rest (frame ) of the Thanksgiving turkey ..or a couple of remains ..bones of ..free range chickens.

For 3 liters of water add 2 tbsp of white wine...this gets the minerals out of the bones. Add organic carrot sliced ..some corn..
Herbs..
Bay leaves
Basil
Rosemary
Thyme
White and black peppercorns

Cook 24 hrs a day for 5 days. Skim the excess fat of the top from time to time . stir occasionally.
You can taste it after the first day..five days is awesome .

Using coffee filters .pour off into pickle jars. It's not uncommon in some families for people to consume a liter a day. It's rumored that if you give a jar of this to your mother in law she will like you ..just kidding.

Clean the bones and all out. Compost them..or throw them out.. The bones are usually soft enough to crush with your fingers if you go the compost route. Start a new batch.

You can get beef or pork bones from you butcher if you prefer. Just ask him for bone broth bones.

This is a healthy food. It's purported to help one live a long and healthy life.

Nice. Worthy of the recipes section.

Makrosky · Jul 31, 2015

Stuart said:
Theo said:

The healthiest time of my life was when I spent a ( Canadian ) winter consuming daily bone broth.
I could take the garbage out to the road wearing a t shirt in freezing weather. This while others were getting colds and flus .
I leaned the recipe from a European family who used their slow cooker every day of the year. As far as I know it was only off for weekly emptying and starting a new batch.

Adding wine is traditional..it apparently gets all the minerals out from the bones and herbs.

Do you make bone broth ?

Have you had good results with it ?

Click to expand...

Fish heads. Simply no comparison with mammalian bone broth because you get the benefits of all the nerve tissue from the fish brain as well as all the gelatinous connective tissue from the fish bones/scales/ eyes etc. There are so many different nutrients in a fish head that all end up in the broth. Cow heads just will not fit in most pots anyway. Also the thyroid gland in fishes is situated in diverse follicles rather than a separate encapsulated gland.
So you don't have to bother with availability/regulatory hurdles buying thyroid supplements - it's all in the broth.
Fish heads are a complete Peatarian resource. They're free from most fishmongers too.
Don't use oily fish species though - they stink when made into a broth.
Use a lot of vinegar and leave it to stew for several days and everything becomes really soft - including all the bones/scales.
Nothing is wasted.
The best gadget to use is a sous vide cooker, which can be set at any temperature chosen between ambient and boiling. 60 deg C is low enough that you can leave it for months if required and no spoilage amines will form. Slow cookers cook at too high a temp compared to sous vide.

Most crock-pots and slow cooking devices have two positions for cooking : Low and High. Do you know how many degrees (C or F) do they reach ? Which one should be ok for doing bone/fish broth ???

If you want precise control of temperature like you mentioned with the sous vide, the price rises up *exponentially*.

Makrosky · Jul 31, 2015

Theo said:
We checked into electricity costs and , at the time, it was 3 cents a hour for electricity for slow cookers.

Slow cookers you mean something like a crock-pot, right ?

Theo · Jul 31, 2015

Makrosky said:
Theo said:

We checked into electricity costs and , at the time, it was 3 cents a hour for electricity for slow cookers.

Click to expand...

Slow cookers you mean something like a crock-pot, right ?

Exactly..the cost was minimal even if you used it 24/7 all year long. Electric crock pot..electric slow cooker ..I think they are the same.
I see Walmart.ca has an electric crock pot/ slow cooker for 23$Can. It's a 7 quart ! That's a lot of broth ! I use a 4 liter slow cooker..not near as large capacity.
I hope to make broths every winter now. Although, some slow cookers are actually so well insulated that they remain room temperature on the outside. So summer use might be an option as well since it apparently won't heat the kitchen until of course you open the cover to give it a stir..which is not too often.

Westside PUFAs · Aug 1, 2015

LucH said:
See "Why broth is beautiful?
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... d-gelatin/

Chicken stock?

I think you're getting Ray Peat confused with the Weston Price/Primal stuff. Peat recommends oxtail soup, not chicken stock. Plus there are other problems with chicken.

The reason is the fat content of the chicken:

“The problem with chicken is that the fat is highly unsaturated, and the meat provides very little calcium.” - RP

“Lamb shanks, pigs' feet, various joint bones, and boiled chicken, if the fat is skimmed off.” - RP

“In the US, chickens are fed arsenic to make them grow faster, and it concentrates in the bones; you should find out what the chicken feeding practice is in your area.” - RP

“If you depend on chicken for your major protein, it will contribute to suppressing your thyroid and progesterone.” - RP

http://wiki.raypeatforum.com/index.php/ ... _Exchanges

If you can only afford chicken for gelatin then just skim the fat off like Peat said. But it's clear that he thinks ruminant bones are best, with beef tails being the specific best.

I recall an audio interview with Peat where he said “as long as you haven’t been poisoned by chicken fat or vegetable oil.” I can’t recall which show it was.

Matt Stone made some good points about chicken:

”Chicken was not consumed liberally. Chicken was never a preferred meat when others were available, nor were chickens fed excess of PUFA. They roamed around eating bugs. Pigs roamed around eating anything and everything, and most pork came from small farms that fed the pigs scraps, including leftover skim milk from the cow and stuff out of the garden. Today they are grain fed. Modern animal production has caused chicken and pork to be higher in PUFA. They are still fed "whole foods," but high-PUFA (omega 6 specifically) whole foods, which effects the composition of their tissues the same as vegetable oil does – albeit with less vitamin E and selenium protection that you might get from eating nuts and seeds." - Matt Stone

Stuart · Aug 1, 2015

Makrosky said:
If you want precise control of temperature like you mentioned with the sous vide, the price rises up *exponentially*.

The best way is to use any rice cooker or slow cooker as a sous vide cooker. You need a temperature controller which can be bought on ebay for about $15. The probe goes into the 'broth' and you set the temp at whatever up to boiling. Even the cheapest ones are accurate to about .5 degC Slow cookers/rice cookers can't control the temp. But with a temperature controller you can make them 'smart'.
The electricity cost factor even with slow cookers is no big deal, but the great thing about using the sous vide approach is that well insulated you hardly use any electricity at all. It's probably less than a cents worth of electricity to cook the broth for weeks. Whereas a slow cooker will shunt the same amount of watts into the container whether it's insulated or not.
Also once you have your temp controller you can sous vide anything. Leave a roast cooking for a week, and it will still be perfectly cooked. Or just leave it for a couple of hours - perfectly cooked. Cooking anything perfectly is about it reaching the right temp not the time you spend cooking it.

Stuart · Aug 1, 2015

sueq said:
I'm going to experiment with the fish heads too. And temperatures. I've been reading old cookbooks and every recipe so far includes gelatin from broth. If the cut wasn't gelatinous already they added something like a calf foot without comment. It went without saying. Clearly people ate a very different balance of amino acids up till my mother's generation. Some very clever tips include making your broth in the same pot with your dinner. Eg a stewing or pot roasting cut of beef simmers with a calf foot or pork trotter. And wine for the acid. I sometimes soak a whole chicken in water with vinegar overnight then slow cook and get cooked chicken and stock in one go. You might worry it would be tasteless but all it needs is salt (veg optional)

Whenever I trim my horses' feet my dog eats all the 'fingenails'. I still think it's disgusting but now I know why she eats them.

Such_Saturation · Aug 1, 2015

It's hard for me to imagine how insects could have any more saturated fats than soy, for example.

Makrosky · Aug 24, 2015

Stuart said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/93201/

Makrosky said:

If you want precise control of temperature like you mentioned with the sous vide, the price rises up *exponentially*.

Click to expand...

The best way is to use any rice cooker or slow cooker as a sous vide cooker. You need a temperature controller which can be bought on ebay for about $15. The probe goes into the 'broth' and you set the temp at whatever up to boiling. Even the cheapest ones are accurate to about .5 degC Slow cookers/rice cookers can't control the temp. But with a temperature controller you can make them 'smart'.

Sorry, I don't understand this. Do you mean the temperature controller disconnects the electricity after a certain temperature is reached, and then reconnects it when the temperature goes down again ? Do that really work ???

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Bone broth

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