Serotonin Removal?

peatarian

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Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
I have tried to lower my serotonin (prolactin) using amantadine (Amantadine is a weak antagonist of the NMDA type glutamate receptor, increases dopamine release, and blocks dopamine reuptake.), which was recommended by Ray Peat but at the time it was too weak for me. I didn't feel anything apart from a little dizziness.

So I let him know and he sent me studies regarding the more potent ondansetron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondansetron
I have been using 4mg twice a day for over a year and had great results:

reduced anxiety
boosted self esteem
more psychological energy
optimism
increased vitality
no headaches
no weather related problems (with sleeping, headaches ...)
no sickness of the stomach
better eyesight
no toothaches
less susceptibility to stress situation and discouragement

On the downside I did have some trouble with obstipation but I used cascara and was fine with the combination.
And for everybody wondering: No, I didn't have a prescription. I try to imagine how a doctor would have reacted had I asked him for a Parkinson drug when they refused to prescribe me anything other that pure t4 to support my thyroid gland.

I am not sure but it might be that the antibiotics RP recommends (minocycline) also act as serotonine inhibitors since they kill bacteria in the stomach and intestines and 90% of serotonin is produced there. I have been using those for over a year, too - always with good results like perfect skin. But they lower your blood sugar immensely.

Another, softer and less expensive way to lower serotonin potently is potato pudding. You use a centrifugal juice extractor to produce potato juice. Then you cook it like scrambled eggs: You stir it with a fork to make sure you get all the starch on the bottom and fry it in a pan. This might take a while, about 15 minutes, until it's nice and golden brown. It really tastes nice with salt but has a funny consistency.
(Of course this is not my recipe but RPs. He mentioned it in an interview I think talking about a girl you wasted away in front of her parent's eyes and 'burped ammonia'. He gave her lots of potato pudding and after days she was fine.

Of course there is always carott salad with vinegar and olive oil. And of course lowering your estrogen and PUFA will lower serotonin and the other way round.
 

narouz

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Jul 22, 2012
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4,429
peatarian wrote:
"I am not sure but it might be that the antibiotics RP recommends (minocycline)..."

Hey peatarian,
Do you know where Peat recommended minocycline?
I've heard that he recommends penicillin,
but I hadn't heard of the minocycline recommendation before this.
 

peatarian

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Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
He recommended minocycline in an e-mail to me but you'll find tetracyclins every now and then in his articles and newsletters.

RP: "I think minocycline is safer than doxycycline, and is very safe. It is antiinflammatory, and has some protective effect against cancer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minocycline

From articles:

"In women and rats, antibiotics were found to cause blood levels of estrogen and cortisol to decrease, while progesterone increased. This effect apparently resulted from the liver's increased ability to inactivate estrogen and to maintain blood sugar when the endotoxin stress was decreased."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/lactate.shtml

"For Koch, antibiotics and anticancer agents weren’t necessarily distinct from each other, and would be expected to have other beneficial effects as well." ((Meaning Frederick William Koch, a really fascinating man, still believed to have been a fraud like so many. RP called him "legit" - probably the highest compliment, Albert von Szent-Györgyi based his nobel prized studies on his work: http://www.williamfkoch.com/web/version2/default.php))
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ca ... buse.shtml

"The tetracyclines, with related structure, have some similar properties, and are antiinflammatory, as well as antibiotic."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ca ... buse.shtml

"These all make fundamental contributions to the restoration of biological energy. Antibiotics, for example, lower endotoxin formation in the intestine, protect against the induction by endotoxin of serotonin, histamine, estrogen, and cortisol. Acetazolamide causes the tissues to retain carbon dioxide, and increased carbon dioxide acidifies cells, preventing serotonin secretion."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ties.shtml

"I have previously discussed the use of antibiotics (and/or carrot fiber and/or charcoal) to relieve the premenstrual syndrome, and have mentioned the study in which the lifespan was extended by occasionally adding charcoal to the diet. A few years ago, I heard about a Mexican farmer who collected his neighbors' runt pigs, and got them to grow normally by adding charcoal to their diet. This probably achieves the same thing as adding antibiotics to their food, which is practiced by pig farmers in the US to promote growth and efficient use of food. Charcoal, besides binding and removing toxins, is also a powerful catalyst for the oxidative destruction of many toxic chemicals. In a sense, it anticipates the action of the protective enzymes of the intestinal wall and the liver."
http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/carrageenan.shtml

I still wouldn't add ondansetron or minocyclin to the supplement list because RP doesn't recommend the regular use. But on the other hand neither does he with cascara. He also recommends benadryl or other antihistamins but not regularly, either. There is a circle of histamin, estrogen, melatonin and the other stress hormones which can be stopped using antihistamins. Or naltrexone in very low doses for that matter.

I have tried the azetasolamide he mentions above, too and had good effects. It kind of increases your CO2 intake, drives water from your cells and so on. You could say azetasolamide has the effects of bag breathing all day long. Adverse effects: tingling fingers and toes from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetazolamide
 
OP
D

dsohei

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
11
peatarian said:
I have tried to lower my serotonin (prolactin) using amantadine (Amantadine is a weak antagonist of the NMDA type glutamate receptor, increases dopamine release, and blocks dopamine reuptake.), which was recommended by Ray Peat but at the time it was too weak for me. I didn't feel anything apart from a little dizziness.

So I let him know and he sent me studies regarding the more potent ondansetron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondansetron
I have been using 4mg twice a day for over a year and had great results:

reduced anxiety
boosted self esteem
more psychological energy
optimism
increased vitality
no headaches
no weather related problems (with sleeping, headaches ...)
no sickness of the stomach
better eyesight
no toothaches
less susceptibility to stress situation and discouragement

On the downside I did have some trouble with obstipation but I used cascara and was fine with the combination.
And for everybody wondering: No, I didn't have a prescription. I try to imagine how a doctor would have reacted had I asked him for a Parkinson drug when they refused to prescribe me anything other that pure t4 to support my thyroid gland.

I am not sure but it might be that the antibiotics RP recommends (minocycline) also act as serotonine inhibitors since they kill bacteria in the stomach and intestines and 90% of serotonin is produced there. I have been using those for over a year, too - always with good results like perfect skin. But they lower your blood sugar immensely.

Another, softer and less expensive way to lower serotonin potently is potato pudding. You use a centrifugal juice extractor to produce potato juice. Then you cook it like scrambled eggs: You stir it with a fork to make sure you get all the starch on the bottom and fry it in a pan. This might take a while, about 15 minutes, until it's nice and golden brown. It really tastes nice with salt but has a funny consistency.
(Of course this is not my recipe but RPs. He mentioned it in an interview I think talking about a girl you wasted away in front of her parent's eyes and 'burped ammonia'. He gave her lots of potato pudding and after days she was fine.

Of course there is always carott salad with vinegar and olive oil. And of course lowering your estrogen and PUFA will lower serotonin and the other way round.

so ondansetron is a dopamine agonist/precursor similar to l-dopa/n-acetyl tyrosine/l-tyrosine? have you tried any of these 3 and did they have similar effects to the ondansetron?
 

narouz

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Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
I still wouldn't add ondansetron or minocyclin to the supplement list because RP doesn't recommend the regular use. But on the other hand neither does he with cascara. He also recommends benadryl or other antihistamins but not regularly, either. There is a circle of histamin, estrogen, melatonin and the other stress hormones which can be stopped using antihistamins. Or naltrexone in very low doses for that matter.

Thank you so much, peatarian.
A wealth of information!

Or naltrexone in very low doses

I've been interested in Naltrexone for some time now.
Have you ever tried that?

And about on what you say about antihistimines:

There is a circle of histamin, estrogen, melatonin and the other stress hormones which can be stopped using antihistamins.

...have you had a personal experience with that?
I've recently been plagued by allergy-like symptoms--itchy eyes, sneezing, swollen nasal membranes--
even though I've had little trouble with what most people think of as "seasonal allergies."
At the same time I've experience an increased stiffness, achiness in my lower back.
I've been wondering if this may be some kind of "circle of histamin" thing, as you put it.

Thanks again!
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
dsohei said:
so ondansetron is a dopamine agonist/precursor similar to l-dopa/n-acetyl tyrosine/l-tyrosine? have you tried any of these 3 and did they have similar effects to the ondansetron?

No, ondansetron doesn't do anything to dopamine directly. It is a serotonin 5-HT3 receptor antagonist. So when it comes to serotonin and all the misconceptions about this neurotransmitter it's a pretty straight drug.
 

peatarian

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Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
I have tried naltrexone for more than a year. I will answer you tomorrow.
There is some misinformation about LDN out there. Like that you can't stop the treatment anymore once you've started it because the original disease would come back. I have used it for more than a year and stopped it more than a year ago without any trouble ever.
Do you know these:
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/bbihari_cv.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x54Jccr8GT8

BTW: Ray Peat doesn't agree with Dr. Bihari with the way Low Dose Naltrexone (or Nalexone) works.
 
OP
D

dsohei

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
11
peatarian said:
dsohei said:
so ondansetron is a dopamine agonist/precursor similar to l-dopa/n-acetyl tyrosine/l-tyrosine? have you tried any of these 3 and did they have similar effects to the ondansetron?

No, ondansetron doesn't do anything to dopamine directly. It is a serotonin 5-HT3 receptor antagonist. So when it comes to serotonin and all the misconceptions about this neurotransmitter it's a pretty straight drug.

so how would one know whether ondan would work for them, besides direct experimentation? i find it difficult to figure out all the different serotonin receptor anatagonists and which one to target, if any.
 

peatarian

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Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
You could have your prolactin level checked. It's a pretty good way to see if your serotonin is okay. You don't need to fix what isn't broken and as I wrote ondansetron is not a supplement like vitamin E.

Everything Ray Peat recommends from the potato juice pudding and carott salad to milk and bag breathing and the occasional charcoal will lower your serotonin. If you don't have immediate symptoms you know or think are caused by excess serotonin you will not need any blockers or re-uptake inhibitors.

After reading what Ray Peat writes about serotonin research I got the impression that most of the drugs concerning serotonin or dopamine are made by people who know less about the mechanisms than you do after reading one article by Ray Peat.

I don't know anything about l-dopa or n-acetyl. After I had tried ondansetron I didn't need to look for anything else. I posted the effects earlier.
Of tyrosine/l-tyrosine I have heard from a friend but nothing good. I don't remember the story exactly so I will not try to make something up.
 

peatarian

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Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
narouz said:
I've been interested in Naltrexone for some time now.
Have you ever tried that?

And about on what you say about antihistimines:

...have you had a personal experience with that?
I've recently been plagued by allergy-like symptoms--itchy eyes, sneezing, swollen nasal membranes--
even though I've had little trouble with what most people think of as "seasonal allergies."
At the same time I've experience an increased stiffness, achiness in my lower back.
I've been wondering if this may be some kind of "circle of histamin" thing, as you put it.

Thanks again!

Here is Ray Peat (from an e-mail) on Naltrexone:

"Bihari thinks naltrexone works by increasing endorphins, I think excess endorphins are often the problem, and the antagonist can sometimes be helpful. The endorphins differ in their effects on the two sides of the body, so when I knew two women (within the same year) who had been having mysterious one-sided symptoms for a few months before discovering that they had ovarian cancer (on the same side), I thought that the endorphins were probably involved, maybe to suppress pain on that side. Naloxone and naltrexone have some effects that aren't directly related to the endorphins, on estrogen and histamine."

My experience with naltrexone is that it does what Ray Peat thought it might do: It gives you a break. It holds (some of) the hormones (and neutransmitters) of stress in check while you concentrate on getting better. I don't know what happens if you use it to relieve some symptoms but don't change anything about your life. There are some testimonials on the websites I posted earlier. But I think if you have health problems and want to live your life according to the knowledge and insides Ray Peat provides you might need a little time to get things right, to understand a complex world and to realize that it's not the one you grew up with and not the one you were told it is. That alone can be stress. Someone here wrote: The more I learn the more paranoid I get and I fully agree. Tragically my paranoia turns out to be right more often than not. In that case naltrexone is the right thing for you.

It obviously has some anti-cancer effects and does help with many so called autoimmune diseases.
I never realized a big sensation while using it. No sudden stopping or starting of this or that. But it did place me in a bubble for a while when I needed it and seemed to protect me. I used the time and when I stopped using the naltrexone I noticed that some things (like travelling, stress situations like talking about health and nutrition with Non-Peatarians, darkness, not enough sleep, bad food) started to take their toll as they used to do before the naltrexone. But I just use a little more progest-e-complex and that helps me cope with it.

On the more practical level: It is cheep because you only need a very small dose. I have known of people who just tried it to see if it made a difference and when it didn't they didn't use it. I believe it's really safe. I haven't heard of any adverse effects but trouble to fall asleep. I used naltexone in the evening and never experience anything like that.


About antihistamines:

Yes, I have used some kinds. I have made good experiences with benadryl and would recommend trying it for the sneezing and for the itching eyes. I have had these symptoms a couple of months ago and used my CO2-bag immediately. The symptoms disappeared completely. Can you say a little more about these symptoms? Did they appear abruptly? I haven't heard about stiffness and aching regarding allergies. Is there anything new around you? New plants maybe? Some new food or new brand of anything?
I think benadryl (or other anti-histamines) is safe but it will make you tired. You could try it before you go to bed. Just don't overdose. It can be that after using benadryl for some weeks you experience some withdrawal symptoms though I am not sure this is the right term. Nothing serious just to let you know.

Have you heard of DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) for the pain in your back and the stiffness?
 

peatarian

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Joined
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Messages
313
dsohei said:
so how would one know whether ondan would work for them, besides direct experimentation? i find it difficult to figure out all the different serotonin receptor anatagonists and which one to target, if any.

I found this in an e-mail from Ray Peat:
'What would your doctors think about letting you try an antiserotonin drug, like lisuride or ondansetron or bromocriptine, now that your prolactin was measured so high? I think the prolactin should be around 9 to 12.'
 

narouz

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Jul 22, 2012
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4,429
Peatarian wrote:

Here is Ray Peat (from an e-mail) on Naltrexone:

"Bihari thinks naltrexone works by increasing endorphins, I think excess endorphins are often the problem, and the antagonist can sometimes be helpful. The endorphins differ in their effects on the two sides of the body, so when I knew two women (within the same year) who had been having mysterious one-sided symptoms for a few months before discovering that they had ovarian cancer (on the same side), I thought that the endorphins were probably involved, maybe to suppress pain on that side. Naloxone and naltrexone have some effects that aren't directly related to the endorphins, on estrogen and histamine."

My experience with naltrexone is that it does what Ray Peat thought it might do: It gives you a break. It holds (some of) the hormones (and neutransmitters) of stress in check while you concentrate on getting better. I don't know what happens if you use it to relieve some symptoms but don't change anything about your life. There are some testimonials on the websites I posted earlier. But I think if you have health problems and want to live your life according to the knowledge and insides Ray Peat provides you might need a little time to get things right, to understand a complex world and to realize that it's not the one you grew up with and not the one you were told it is. That alone can be stress. Someone here wrote: The more I learn the more paranoid I get and I fully agree. Tragically my paranoia turns out to be right more often than not. In that case naltrexone is the right thing for you.

It obviously has some anti-cancer effects and does help with many so called autoimmune diseases.
I never realized a big sensation while using it. No sudden stopping or starting of this or that. But it did place me in a bubble for a while when I needed it and seemed to protect me. I used the time and when I stopped using the naltrexone I noticed that some things (like travelling, stress situations like talking about health and nutrition with Non-Peatarians, darkness, not enough sleep, bad food) started to take their toll as they used to do before the naltrexone. But I just use a little more progest-e-complex and that helps me cope with it.

On the more practical level: It is cheep because you only need a very small dose. I have known of people who just tried it to see if it made a difference and when it didn't they didn't use it. I believe it's really safe. I haven't heard of any adverse effects but trouble to fall asleep. I used naltexone in the evening and never experience anything like that.

Thanks, Peatarian!
That's great info from Peat.

The naltrexone...I've been intrigued by that
because some say it can have a very dramatic, positive effect on the the thyroid,
sort of getting it cranked up, unstuck.

While I have seen Peat mention it in some of his writings,
he didn't seem to discuss in that same thyroid-related framework.

Of all the many things you've experimented with,
it doesn't sound like thyroid supplementation is one of them...?
 

peatarian

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Messages
313
Yes, I have used thyroid and still use it but I don't feel like I can add very useful information. It's the one thing I am still struggling with. I know how too much t4 feels and how to little t3 feels and how it feels when you want to use t3 pills but they are so impotent they can't raise your body temperature at all. I am still experimenting with thyroid. My TSH is close to zero as Ray Peat suggests but I am constantly adjusting. Every time I have found something that works some variable changes. The days get shorter, I have more stress or there is no more ripe fruit for my diet. Sorry I can't be helpful about this.
 

narouz

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peatarian said:
Yes, I have used thyroid and still use it but I don't feel like I can add very useful information. It's the one thing I am still struggling with. I know how too much t4 feels and how to little t3 feels and how it feels when you want to use t3 pills but they are so impotent they can't raise your body temperature at all. I am still experimenting with thyroid. My TSH is close to zero as Ray Peat suggests but I am constantly adjusting. Every time I have found something that works some variable changes. The days get shorter, I have more stress or there is no more ripe fruit for my diet. Sorry I can't be helpful about this.

Yes, this reflects my experience a bit, about the thyroid.
A couple of years ago, when I was on Synthroid,
my doctor found that I was "over-corrected,"
as he put it--
too much supplement.
But that was straight T4.
I know what that felt like:
when I would try to nap,
as I began to fall asleep,
I would feel a sudden pang of anxiety and awake.
This pattern would repeat and repeat.

Now I'm on dessicated porcine, Armour.
Generally better results.
TSH under zero.
My decent but not wonderful (certainly not Peatatarian) doctor
says I'm where I should be
but my temps and pulse are not where they should be according to Peat.
They've improved over this last 1/2 a year of Peatness,
but still...not where they should be.

I'm going to try slowly increasing my dose,
but I don't think increasing metabolism is as simple as just increasing thyroid.
I didn't like feeling OD'd on thryoid supplement--
but again, that was on synthetic thryoid, straight T4,
and while doing an insanely anti-thyroid diet at the time
(I was eating mostly raw, lots of raw kale, greens, crucifers,
lots and lots of PUFA-ridden nuts,
lots and lots of chicken with the skin on,
huge amounts of olive oil,
no carbs,
no sugars...).

So...it may work differently this time--
upping my thyroid gradually.
 

nwo2012

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Aug 28, 2012
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Lucky enough to have access to naloxone and ondansetron so going to give them a go and see how this affects mood, sleep, temps and pulses.
Thanks Peatarian.

Narouz Im at clinic so will continue the starch discussion when I have the time. ;)
 

peatarian

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Messages
313
nwo2012: Are you planning on using both at the same time?
I started with 2 mg of ondansetron a day and went up to 8 mg a day (twice 4 mg). I think it's important to not suddenly stop using it but gradually use less and less. I didn't have withdrawal symptoms (like a sudden rush of serotonin after stopping ondansetron) but I have heard about it from others. Just to warn you.

The naltrexone is best administered when you crush a pill and dissolve it in water. You then use a syringe. I have been using 4,5 mg a day.

I wish you great results.
 

peatarian

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Messages
313
narouz: Yes, I struggle just like that. But I recall that RP doesn't suggest natural (pork) thyroid anymore because Amour has changed something about their formula (probably something about the patent) and most of the other natural thyroid pills are not pure enough.

My problem seem to be that there is always too much T4 in all thyroid supplements and having too much T4 means it will be stored in your tissue. Then there is always the danger that it might be converted to T3 all at once when using progesterone, coconut oil, salt as boosters. I would love to use T3 only to adjust for the T4 in the pills because without T4 I have problems, too. It's sometimes really frustrating.

I don't think the problem is the amount of thyroid I use but the amount of T3 in the supplement. If I could just get potent T3 pills (Ray Peat suggests nibbling on ONE T3 pill throughout the day; I have used 12 without any effect).

I am trying to get my thyroid running on coconut oil, lots of salt (3 table spoons a day) and sugar, Coca-Cola (hardly ever mentioned in the forum but so very important for the Peat-diet), milk and coffee.
 

kiran

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peatarian said:
I don't think the problem is the amount of thyroid I use but the amount of T3 in the supplement. If I could just get potent T3 pills (Ray Peat suggests nibbling on ONE T3 pill throughout the day; I have used 12 without any effect).
Have you tried taking 5mcg every so often? At one point I was taking 5mcg every half hour ...

Are you eating adequate protein with that?
Plus you might try large doses of T3 to reduce "thyroid resistance" via RT3.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

btw, you can get liquid T3, bodybuilders use it to lose weight.
(I use it, it works well, but ymmv quality wise)
 

peatarian

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Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Thank you that's very interesting.
I usually eat lots of protein throughout the day but I have never tried liquid T3. I didn't even know it existed.
I will look into that, thanks a lot!
 

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