Chicken

Ray Peat diet information.

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Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Reconcile this statement by Peat...

"If you depend on chicken for your major protein, it will contribute to suppressing your thyroid and progesterone."--Ray Peat

http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/29/ray-peats-brain-building-a-foundation-for-better-understandi.html

...with this list of PUFA in foods...

Extremely low Omega 6 Sources (Less than 2%)

Coconut oil 1.9%
Prime rib 1.8%
Whole milk 1.8%
Half and Half 1.8%
Ground Beef 1.6%
Macadamia Nuts 1.6%
Chicken without skin 1.4%
Lamb 1.4%

Maybe Omega 6 content is not a good way to estimate PUFA content?
Maybe the PUFAs in chicken are all in the skin?

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Re: Chicken

Unread postby Charlie » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:47 pm

Well isn't that interesting? I would love to be able to eat more chicken, but now I really shun away from it. Eggs have MUCH more then chicken if you go by the list thats here. Very very interesting. :confused
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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:22 pm

Charlie wrote:Well isn't that interesting? I would love to be able to eat more chicken, but now I really shun away from it. Eggs have MUCH more then chicken if you go by the list thats here. Very very interesting. :confused


I know, right? :)


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Reinforces Peat about chickens reflecting their diet

Unread postby narouz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:00 am

Effect of dietary fatty acid composition on carcass quality of broiler
Monday, 01 May 2006 00:00
Print
I. Bouvarel1, H. Juin2, M. Lessire3, A. Judde4, J. Evrard5, A. Corniaux6 and N. Brevault7

1ITAVI, Paris, 2INRA, Surgères, 3INRA SRA, Nouzilly, 4 ITERG, Pessac, 5CETIOM, Pessac, 6PRIMEX, Languidic, 7CYBELIA, Paris
France

Since the banning of animal products from poultry feed, the oily fat problem has been exacerbated by the exclusive use of vegetable oils and, from now, should be taken into account when formulating feed. The synthesis of five experiments has made possible to relate the fatty acid profile of the abdominal fat and dietary fats with the carcass presentation.
The abdominal fat fatty acid profile was highly correlated with the lipids found in the diet. The more unsaturated the fats, the softer and oilier carcasses seemed. Polyunsaturated fatty acid contents accounted well for the visual scoring of carcasses (r2 = 0.64, ETR = 0.50, n = 27).

Introduction

In broiler chickens, the oily fat problem encountered in slaughterhouses causes technological incidents. Today, this problem is exacerbated by the exclusive use of vegetable oils resulting from the recent banning of animal fats and should be taken into account, from now, when formulating feed. Generally, the fatty acid profile of chickens' tissues reflects the composition of the ingested lipids. Significant correlations between the nature of dietary lipids and that of fatty and muscle tissues have been demonstrated, particularly for unsaturated fatty acids (Pinchasov et Nir, 1992; Caudron et al., 1993; Scaife et al., 1994). The main effect of an unsaturated dietary fat or oil is to induce the deposition, in body lipids, of polyunsaturated fatty acids that are not synthesized by chickens, namely linoleic and linolenic acids in fatty and muscle tissues, and long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in muscles (Lessire, 1995).
Changes in the fatty acid profile of fat deposits in chickens result in a modification of the carcasses' aspect. Carcasses scores indicate they are firmer and drier when feeds are supplemented with tallow (Edwards et al., 1973; Caudron et al., 1993). Conversely, chickens fed on unsaturated oils show carcasses with softer fats (Caudron et al., 1993).
As part of the ACTA-ICTA program, "Dietary lipids and quality of fatty and muscle tissues in broiler chickens", a series of experiments showed that the composition of the fatty acids incorporated in the muscle triglycerides and phospholipids is closely linked to that of dietary lipids (Gandemer et al., 1999 ; Viau et al., 1999). The increase in n-3 PUFAs in intramuscular lipids has low impact on their sensitivity to oxidation. This good oxidation stability allows the use of diets with high linoleic acid proportions (7% of total fatty acids) with no impairment of chicken organoleptic qualities (Viau et al., 2001).
The work presented here aims to define feed composition criteria in order to obtain an acceptable presentation of chicken carcasses at the slaughterhouse...


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Some thoughts on chicken

Unread postby narouz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:09 am

I'll have to track down Peat's comments,
but I have it well stored in my head
(because it was rather traumatic discovering that my new life as a Peatatarian
would not include my beloved
and formerly widely viewed as healthful
chicken)
that he has said that one:
1. can't eat chicken more than once every 10 days without thyroid suppression
(presumably from PUFA content).
2. the skin is obscenely rife with PUFA
3. but also that chickens reflect their diet
(and so: what if you can buy "the Peat Perfect Chicken,"
fed NO artificial diet
and ONLY eating by foraging in expansive, organic farmland?)


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PUFA includes more than the Omega 6's

Unread postby narouz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:13 am

PUFA includes more than the Omega 6's.

The list at the top of the thread is JUST about Omega 6's,
which are viewed by many as the Core 'O Evil PUFA.
But we need to research what Peat has to say on the subject.
What does Peat mean, exactly, when he uses the term PUFA?

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Re: Chicken

Unread postby Charlie » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:45 am

According to that study above we might as well just forget about chicken again. Unless you grow them yourselves and pasture them or you know the farmer who grows them and you can see exactly how he/she grows them. :2cents

We definitely should try to figure out what the complete scope of the word PUFA means.
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Pondering the PUFAs

Unread postby narouz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:50 pm

Just to, hopefully, push this exploration of PUFAs along a bit,
here is a list of the Omega 9 PUFAs, according to Wikipedia.

It is a little confusing
because the general category of PUFA
(or Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids)
includes Omega 3, Omega 6, and Omega 9.

But, of the Omega 9 PUFAs,
notice that all are monounsaturates
except for Mead Acid which is a polyunsaturate.
(So why are "monounsaturates" included within the category of "polyunsaturates"...? :roll: )

Anyhow, here's the list:

Omega-9

Omega-9 fatty acids, mono- and polyunsaturated

Common name Lipid name Chemical name

Oleic acid† 18:1 (n-9) cis-9-octadecenoic acid
Eicosenoic acid† 20:1 (n-9) cis-11-eicosenoic acid
Mead acid 20:3 (n-9) all-cis-5,8,11-eicosatrienoic acid
Erucic acid† 22:1 (n-9) cis-13-docosenoic acid
Nervonic acid† 24:1 (n-9) cis-15-tetracosenoic acid
†Monounsaturated


I have read Dr. Peat write positively about some of the Omega-9s:
I believe he has said that Oleic Acid is found in olive oil,
and has some positive, antioxidant properties.
And I think he has some good things to say about Mead Acid too,
though I can't remember what it was exactly.

But I also think I remember Peat saying that
we don't need to consume those Omega 9s (which are PUFAs too, presumably)
because we can make them ourselves.

Here is a quote from his The Great Fish Oil Experiment

“The fats that we synthesize from sugar, or coconut oil, or oleic acid, the omega-9 series, are protective against the inflammatory PUFA, in some cases more effective even than vitamin E.


So, we can make those Omega-9s ourselves from sugar, coconut oil, or oleic acid (in olive oil I believe).
We don't even have to eat any kind of oil to get our needed Omega-9s,
because we can make them from sugars.

As for the other Omega-9s on the list,
some would clearly seem to be bad.
For example, consider this excerpt (from Wiki) on Erucic acid:

Erucic acid has many of the same uses as mineral oils, but it is more readily biodegradable than some. It has limited ability to polymerize and dry for use in oil paints. Like other fatty acids, it can be converted into surfactants, lubricant and is a precursor to bio-diesel.

Derivatives of erucic acid have many further uses, such as behenyl alcohol (CH3(CH2)21OH), a pour point depressant (enabling liquids to flow at a lower temperature), and silver behenate, for use in photography.[2] It is also used as an ingredient in appetite suppressants.


Whenever Peat refers to oils being good drying agents,
as in paint applications, he is usually trying to stress
how bad they are for human food consumption.

So, anyhow:
It seems pretty clear that
by PUFA
Dr. Peat means the Omega-3s, Omega-6s, and (most of the) Omega 9s.

That chart we have posted somewhere here
is a chart of
only Omega-6 content.

Maybe chicken has a ton of Omega-3's and 9's...?
Maybe the chart is not accurate?
Maybe all of the PUFAs are concentrated in the chicken SKIN
and the chart is measuring only chicken MEAT?


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A PUFA Food Content List

Unread postby narouz » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:08 pm

Here is a link to a list of PUFA food sources:

Sources of Polyunsaturated fatty acids
http://nutrient.javalime.com/nutrient.php/646.1

It's too long to post(?)
and I've just glanced through it...
rather baffling in respect to Chicken.... :roll:


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:31 pm

This chicken and the Peat thing...

I'm really tilting toward thinking that Peat may've inadvertently
demonized Chicken.
I'm thinking of his remark that seems so decisive,
how does it go...?
approximately and not nearly as eloquently:

"If you eat a lot of chicken as your main protein source you will experience a suppression of thyroid function."

Add to that his general operating principle with animals as food sources:
ruminants are good.

Chickens are not ruminant.
Furthermore, even though Peat also said chicken meat will reflect their food sources,
it is damn hard to get chickens who have not been fed feed--
and feed which is not soy or corn based.

But still...if you check the food chart,
it lists chicken without the SKIN as very low in PUFA.

I'm really wondering if the primary evil of chicken lies mainly in its skin.

But then you have to balance that with the fact that
we should not be eating high amounts of muscle meats of any source.

But what about boneless chicken once in a while?
Apparently, if you believe the chart, only as harmful as steak or lamb, approximately.
And it makes delicious stock.
Wouldn't that be healthy?
Especially from excellent, health food store chicken bones?


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby nwo2012 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:41 pm

narouz wrote:This chicken and the Peat thing...

I'm really tilting toward thinking that Peat may've inadvertently
demonized Chicken.
I'm thinking of his remark that seems so decisive,
how does it go...?
approximately and not nearly as eloquently:

"If you eat a lot of chicken as your main protein source you will experience a suppression of thyroid function."

Add to that his general operating principle with animals as food sources:
ruminants are good.

Chickens are not ruminant.
Furthermore, even though Peat also said chicken meat will reflect their food sources,
it is damn hard to get chickens who have not been fed feed--
and feed which is not soy or corn based.

But still...if you check the food chart,
it lists chicken without the SKIN as very low in PUFA.

I'm really wondering if the primary evil of chicken lies mainly in its skin.

But then you have to balance that with the fact that
we should not be eating high amounts of muscle meats of any source.

But what about boneless chicken once in a while?
Apparently, if you believe the chart, only as harmful as steak or lamb, approximately.
And it makes delicious stock.
Wouldn't that be healthy?
Especially from excellent, health food store chicken bones?


I dont think he would demonize chickens without a reason. But as was suggested, I think he is probably referring to skin on AND incorrectly raised chickens, rather than low fat cust from 'real' pastured chickens. I think Peat keeps his own chickens as I have asked him questions on how to maximized saturated fat content of eggs via feeding (for our own newly bought chickens) and he knows his stuff and talks about how they scratch around etc.

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Re: Chicken

Unread postby BingDing » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:55 pm

You guys might be thinking too hard. ;) The quote is that if you make chicken your main protein source then... So keep chicken protein below 49% of total protein, or keep chicken protein below milk protein, or the like. That's all I can make of the plain meaning of the words.

Nutrition Data has n-3, n-6, and total PUFA for a remarkable number of foods, choose 100g serving and scroll down to the bottom of the result page. Chicken breast, meat only, roasted has .8g PUFA per 100g of serving of meat, or .8%. Granted I'm new to Peat World and still on probation but it's hard to believe 4g of chicken breast is PUFA poison. Chicken skin with fat may well be. :2cents

PUFAs are fatty acids with two or more double bonds. Here is a pretty understandable explanation of the science, just ignore the nonsense about saturated fat and heart disease.

Figure 3 of this Chris Masterjohn article explains how free radicals oxidize PUFAs creating a lipid peroxide and another free radical, that starts the chain reaction of electron transfers that RP talks about.
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Re: Chicken

Unread postby Charlie » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:59 pm

I am thinking because they are "grain fed" that would might cause problems to along with the PUFA's. Of course, I could be wrong.


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:05 pm

BingDing wrote:You guys might be thinking too hard. ;) The quote is that if you make chicken your main protein source then... So keep chicken protein below 49% of total protein, or keep chicken protein below milk protein, or the like. That's all I can make of the plain meaning of the words.

Nutrition Data has n-3, n-6, and total PUFA for a remarkable number of foods, choose 100g serving and scroll down to the bottom of the result page. Chicken breast, meat only, roasted has .8g PUFA per 100g of serving of meat, or .8%. Granted I'm new to Peat World and still on probation but it's hard to believe 4g of chicken breast is PUFA poison. Chicken skin with fat may well be. :2cents

PUFAs are fatty acids with two or more double bonds. Here is a pretty understandable explanation of the science, just ignore the nonsense about saturated fat and heart disease.

Figure 3 of this Chris Masterjohn article explains how free radicals oxidize PUFAs creating a lipid peroxide and another free radical, that starts the chain reaction of electron transfers that RP talks about.


Yes, BingDing,
I hear where you're coming from.
I'll check the link. Thanks.

At the moment,
maybe because I'm scared of iron (in which red meat is much higher than chicken),
I'm eating a couple ounces of chicken like twice a week.
Really: I'm talking like a couple of ounces per serving.
I'm proceeding under the idea that most of the PUFA is in the chicken skin.
So I'm eating skinless breast (that is the lowest fat part of the chicken, right?)

Now...there are other reasons to avoid chicken in large amounts.
It is a muscle meat,
and Peat doesn't like a lot of muscle meat, from whatever source: anti-metabolic.

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Re: Chicken

Unread postby Charlie » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:08 pm

narouz wrote:At the moment,
maybe because I'm scared of iron (in which red meat is much higher than chicken),
I'm eating a couple ounces of chicken like twice a week.
Really: I'm talking like a couple of ounces per serving.
I'm proceeding under the idea that most of the PUFA is in the chicken skin.
So I'm eating skinless breast (that is the lowest fat part of the chicken, right?)

Now...there are other reasons to avoid chicken in large amounts.
It is a muscle meat,
and Peat doesn't like a lot of muscle meat, from whatever source: anti-metabolic.


Anything to eat that chicken, huh narzouz? :rolling


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:09 pm

Charlie wrote:I am thinking because they are "grain fed" that would might cause problems to along with the PUFA's. Of course, I could be wrong.


Charlie-
I would think the grain diet is precisely what contributes to the chickens' PUFAness.
Now...how PUFA-y would chickens be with NO grain diet,
only natural worms and bugs and stuff...?
They're not ruminant.
Peat says they will reflect their diet.


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:10 pm

Charlie wrote:
narouz wrote:At the moment,
maybe because I'm scared of iron (in which red meat is much higher than chicken),
I'm eating a couple ounces of chicken like twice a week.
Really: I'm talking like a couple of ounces per serving.
I'm proceeding under the idea that most of the PUFA is in the chicken skin.
So I'm eating skinless breast (that is the lowest fat part of the chicken, right?)

Now...there are other reasons to avoid chicken in large amounts.
It is a muscle meat,
and Peat doesn't like a lot of muscle meat, from whatever source: anti-metabolic.


Anything to eat that chicken, huh narzouz? :rolling


Yeah...I love me some chicken. :oops:
If I can have a tiny bit...it helps....

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Re: Chicken

Unread postby BingDing » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:30 pm

narouz wrote:I'm proceeding under the idea that most of the PUFA is in the chicken skin.
So I'm eating skinless breast (that is the lowest fat part of the chicken, right?)

Now...there are other reasons to avoid chicken in large amounts.
It is a muscle meat,
and Peat doesn't like a lot of muscle meat, from whatever source: anti-metabolic.


Breast is definitely the lowest fat part. For comparison, cheddar cheese has more PUFA than chicken breast. Agreed about the high iron and muscle meat.
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Re: Chicken

Unread postby Birdie » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:46 pm

While I've still got it in mind, I was listening to an interview recently where Ray spoke of using a chicken for stock. I should have written down the reference, but I was in the bathtub.

I was surprised because I've heard him only talk about problems with chickens before. He said they have a high metabolism which helps. I won't say more because I can't remember accurately.


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Re: Chicken

Unread postby narouz » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:14 pm

Birdie wrote:While I've still got it in mind, I was listening to an interview recently where Ray spoke of using a chicken for stock. I should have written down the reference, but I was in the bathtub.

I was surprised because I've heard him only talk about problems with chickens before. He said they have a high metabolism which helps. I won't say more because I can't remember accurately.


Do remember what interview, Birdie?


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